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the Kovalchuk trade

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im pretty sure Manta is just trolling... he can't be serious really. He's ignoring any questions that would tell us exactly what the problem is or he's answering with suppositions

Actually, I have answered these questions, over and over, but no one really wants to listen. People here tend to parse out the words and focus on things I didn't say, but maybe heard someplace else (e.g. "Manta hates Kovy", blah, blah, blah).

I understand many of you are blinded by your passion and can't see beyond an individual player and most of you will rationalize everything anyway if it is not what you want to hear.

Bottomline: We aren't going to be making the playoffs for the next few years and will probably resemble the Islanders of the past decade. We are probably going to lose Zach, as this is no longer the franchise that drafted him. As the losing continues and the attendance will continue to decline and the rumors about the team moving will become more pronounced.

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Actually, I have answered these questions, over and over, but no one really wants to listen. People here tend to parse out the words and focus on things I didn't say, but maybe heard someplace else (e.g. "Manta hates Kovy", blah, blah, blah).

I understand many of you are blinded by your passion and can't see beyond an individual player and most of you will rationalize everything anyway if it is not what you want to hear.

Bottomline: We aren't going to be making the playoffs for the next few years and will probably resemble the Islanders of the past decade. We are probably going to lose Zach, as this is no longer the franchise that drafted him. As the losing continues and the attendance will continue to decline and the rumors about the team moving will become more pronounced.

I know the season is VERY young, but what would make you think we cant make the playoffs this year? We're4-2-1 with an extremely difficult schedule so far, and are missing 2 of our top 3 centers. DeBoer is a fine coach....he wont let the troops slip

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I know the season is VERY young, but what would make you think we cant make the playoffs this year? We're4-2-1 with an extremely difficult schedule so far, and are missing 2 of our top 3 centers. DeBoer is a fine coach....he wont let the troops slip

I think DeBoer is a very good, coach but we just don't have the quality talent to compete, particularly on D.

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I think DeBoer is a very good, coach but we just don't have the quality talent to compete, particularly on D.

But you called the group in 2009-10 one of the best the franchise has ever had, and this defense is equal or better.

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But you called the group in 2009-10 one of the best the franchise has ever had, and this defense is equal or better.

Your joking right?

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I understand many of you are blinded by your passion and can't see beyond an individual player and most of you will rationalize everything anyway if it is not what you want to hear.

Pot calling the kettle black, no?

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Your joking right?

YOU'RE joking, right?

Do you really believe that

Martin (who got hurt) - Oduya

Greene - Salvador

White - Mottau

is better than

Tallinder-Larsson

Fayne-Greene (who is equal or better to his 09/10 version)

Volchenkov-Salvador

i would argue that the reason that 09/10 defense was so good was because marty was really good. the quality of these players are MUCH better than the 09/10 team.

This current squad is 4-2-1 against a pretty tough schedule missing it's top line center for all games and it's 2nd line center for one of them (going on obviously much more). There is no question that 09/10 team overachieved in the first half. If you want to continue to debate the effectiveness of a kovalchuk type player and if the style of play is worth the investment, that's a good discussion.

but to say he's the reason for last year (which was 90% a combination of Mac uselessness, Lou cap mismanagement, Parise injury and Langenbrunner unhappiness - yes this was a big thing) is just looking for a scape goat to further your argument and trying to continue to say that the trade was a mistake just makes you come off as a stubborn ass who refuses to believe that water is wet. in absolutely NO way was the trade a bad move. as it has proven, it was an EXCELLENT trade. The new contract really has nothing to do with it.

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Bottomline: We aren't going to be making the playoffs for the next few years and will probably resemble the Islanders of the past decade. We are probably going to lose Zach, as this is no longer the franchise that drafted him. As the losing continues and the attendance will continue to decline and the rumors about the team moving will become more pronounced.

I really do want to hear - but I think it's all getting garbled in the various aggressive questions you try to answer. I understand the result but I do not understand the reason. I can't pick out specific responses to the questions below from your posts:

Why is the signing of Kovalchuk going to result in the Devils missing the playoffs in the next few years?

Why will the signing of Kovalchuk result in the loss of Parise?

Why is losing the only logical conclusion to the Kovachuk signing?

How are the Devils better off without Kovalchuk?

What change in philosophy is the direct result of the Kovalchuk signing (not vice versa one has to assume from the wording of your posts)?

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Your joking right?

The top 6 defensemen from 2009-10 in terms of games played, including average TOI:

Colin White (81, 20:04)

Mike Mottau (79, 22:16)

Bryce Salvador (79, 18:52)

Andy Greene (78, 23:32)

Mark Fraser (61, 12:23)

Johnny Oduya (40, 21:11)

The top 6 defenseman thus far in 2011-12 (all of whom have started all 7 games) in terms of average TOI:

Adam Larsson (23:52)

Henrik Tallinder (20:51)

Andy Greene (19:55)

Mark Fayne (18:48)

Anton Volchenkov (18:00)

Bryce Salvador (17:08)

Considering how awful Mark Fraser is and how awful everyone thought Mottau was, I don't see how that 2009-10 blueline is any better than this year's.

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The Devils better have a 100-point season this year and re-sign Zach so these 'arguments' can finally die forever.

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YOU'RE joking, right?

(insert a post refuting an assumed answer never ACTUALLY provided by Manta himself in any specific way)

See posts like this provide answers for Manta - we answer our own questions without giving him a chance to elaborate in a way that makes logical sense to us. We will continue to go in circles until we all stop responding for him and ask for his response.

We're all so busy asking questions with an eye to being given highly refutable response that we don't ever actually get an answer - just a mishmash of generalities that really serve no purpose for anyone. We dont understand his point any more clearly.

Edited by Pepperkorn

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Bottomline: We aren't going to be making the playoffs for the next few years and will probably resemble the Islanders of the past decade. We are probably going to lose Zach, as this is no longer the franchise that drafted him. As the losing continues and the attendance will continue to decline and the rumors about the team moving will become more pronounced.

this is terrible....quickly lets mince his words into something more optimistic

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the funniest part of the argument to me is that manta thinks one of the worst teams new jersey has iced since 1993 (the 09-10 devils, probably only the 05-06 team were worse) were actually one of the best. without andy greene stepping up and becoming a top 4 D and the power play deciding to shoot at 20%, that team would've been in huge trouble.

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Manta, I've got a question for you: what did you think of the Alex Mogilny trade? You know, the one that sent Brendan Morrison who was supposed to become our star center (and actually lived up to more of his hype than any of the people in the Kovalchuk) and Denis Pederson who at the time was being groomed into a replacement for Bobby Carpenter as our shutdown 3rd line center in exchange for a supposedly selfish, halfway washed up Russian enigma of a scorer whose reputation was that he wouldn't backcheck?

Then Mogilny even got his #89 which definitely showed that he was above the team. How did that trade work out as far as destroying our team's concept? I seem to remember us winning some big silver trophy because of that trade.

We gave up far more valuable pieces to get Mogilny than we ever gave for Kovalchuk and he had way less left in his tank.

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Bottomline: We aren't going to be making the playoffs for the next few years and will probably resemble the Islanders of the past decade. We are probably going to lose Zach, as this is no longer the franchise that drafted him. As the losing continues and the attendance will continue to decline and the rumors about the team moving will become more pronounced.

this is terrible....quickly lets mince his words into something more optimistic

Phew ... that's some serious turd polishing you're looking for. Here goes nothing:

Bottomline: 20110128203738!Trollface.png

or

Bottomline: Paint thinner is delicious.

Take your pick.

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Manta, I've got a question for you: what did you think of the Alex Mogilny trade? You know, the one that sent Brendan Morrison who was supposed to become our star center (and actually lived up to more of his hype than any of the people in the Kovalchuk) and Denis Pederson who at the time was being groomed into a replacement for Bobby Carpenter as our shutdown 3rd line center in exchange for a supposedly selfish, halfway washed up Russian enigma of a scorer whose reputation was that he wouldn't backcheck?

Then Mogilny even got his #89 which definitely showed that he was above the team. How did that trade work out as far as destroying our team's concept? I seem to remember us winning some big silver trophy because of that trade.

We gave up far more valuable pieces to get Mogilny than we ever gave for Kovalchuk and he had way less left in his tank.

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The difference is Mogilny was the missing piece to an already solid team with plans for a long Spring of hockey both in 2000 and 2001 and it worked.

Edited by SJP20

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Yes, but at the point that he was brought in that team hadn't made it past round 2 of the playoffs since winning it all in 1995: a total of 4 years. Sound familiar? At the point that we traded for Kovalchuk we hadn't made it past the second round since winning it all in 2003: a total of 5 seasons. We were supposedly a playoff choking declining team that got Robbie Ftorek fired with 8 games to go because even though we were leading the division we had started slumping again at just the wrong time. To call it a finishing touch makes perfect sense in the hindsight that saw us win a cup, but at the time it was by no means looking like a sure thing.

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Your joking right?

Care to explain HOW the 09-10 defense was better? Because so far you keep asking people if they are serious, and then ducking the question, and then saying we don't understand. Explain how the defenses that myself, Sundstrom, and DaneykoIsGod have listed are different.

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Yes, but at the point that he was brought in that team hadn't made it past round 2 of the playoffs since winning it all in 1995: a total of 4 years. Sound familiar? At the point that we traded for Kovalchuk we hadn't made it past the second round since winning it all in 2003: a total of 5 seasons. We were supposedly a playoff choking declining team that got Robbie Ftorek fired with 8 games to go because even though we were leading the division we had started slumping again at just the wrong time. To call it a finishing touch makes perfect sense in the hindsight that saw us win a cup, but at the time it was by no means looking like a sure thing.

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The Devils of 2000 was a perfect example of a team that was a contender adding a piece they thought would pay immediate dividends into the Spring and following season. They felt they needed a player like Mogilny to go deeper into the Playoffs and make them a two line threat to defend and improve the PP. There were hockey people at the time who thought Mogs would be revitalized here and he was, it just didn't happen full bloom until 2001. Sure, Mogs didn't at all look like a superhero in 2000 but he scored a few big goals and he made opponents aware of his still dangerous skill level. His presence was as big as anything.

Even if they failed in the two years of Mogilny, the deal still made sense and you do it 100 times over when you were in the position they were in.

It can be said you do the same with Kovalchuk, which is true because you always add that talent level for spare parts at any time. However, the 09-10 Devils were not in the same position as the 99-00 Devils which is where the similarities of the acquistions of each player ends.

Kovalchuk was added to change the Devils and to hopefully contend again. Mogilny was added to help them win a Cup in the now.

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Care to explain HOW the 09-10 defense was better? Because so far you keep asking people if they are serious, and then ducking the question, and then saying we don't understand. Explain how the defenses that myself, Sundstrom, and DaneykoIsGod have listed are different.

2008-2009 - Mottau, Salvador, White, Greene, Martin, Oduya 209 Goals Against

2009-2010 - Mottau, Salvador, White, Greene, Martin, Oduya 191 Goals Against

2010-2011 - White, Greene, Tallinder, Volchenkov, Fayne, Salmela 209 Goals Against Even with our atrocious first half.

This years defense and last years defense pretty much rank up with the 08-10 defense, hopefully we will be even better this year. That was a pretty dumb statement from manta :rolleyes:

Edited by Zubie#8

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Bottomline: We aren't going to be making the playoffs for the next few years and will probably resemble the Islanders of the past decade. We are probably going to lose Zach, as this is no longer the franchise that drafted him. As the losing continues and the attendance will continue to decline and the rumors about the team moving will become more pronounced.

Yes, Zach Parise wants to play for a franchise that places little value on offense and likely would have held him back from achieving his full offensive potential. He has no interest whatsoever in being teammates and possibly linemates with one of the top offensive talents in the league. :rolleyes:

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Kovalchuk was added to change the Devils and to hopefully contend again. Mogilny was added to help them win a Cup in the now.

I don't disagree with this, but I would also argue that winning a Cup now (before Marty and Lou retire) is very much a goal of the Devils.

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Yes, and the Devils will win the Stanley Cup as you predicted they would last year.

Tri, I could care less what you think as you have never brought anything valid to the "debate" table. You rarely know what your talking about. You can hide behind fanciful numbers to impress the novices and uninitiated.

You are also great at reneging on wagers when your caught and your BS doesn't fly.

Take that off your deep end.

If you could care less, then why don't you?

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2008-2009 - 209 Goals Against

2009-2010 - 191 Goals Against

2010-2011 - 209 Goals Against Even with our atrocious start.

This years defense and last years defense pretty much rank up with the 08-10 defense, hopefully we will be even better this year. That was a pretty dumb staement from manta :rolleyes:

The funny thing is that Manta is actually right. The 2009-10 defense was good enough to help Marty (who put up career average numbers) take home his fifth Jennings. But what makes it funny is that he'll attribute that to the individual players on that blueline way before giving any credit to the coach. Consider that Martin only played 22 games, Mottau logged 22+ minutes/game and Fraser took up space for 61 games. Any logical person is gonna look at that and say "Wow, the coach squeezed a lot out of that barebones defense." But all Manta ever gives Lemaire credit for are player-ruining mind games.

It's still too early to judge this year's blueline on results alone (they're currently 8th in the league in GA/G), but on paper they appear to have better horses, subjective as that may be.

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I don't disagree with this, but I would also argue that winning a Cup now (before Marty and Lou retire) is very much a goal of the Devils.

I do disagree. Look at Sundstrom's signature for Lou's quote about his namesake. Patrick Sundstrom wasn't famous for his defense. Then look at guys he's traded for over the years: Bernie Nichols, Neal Broten, Stephane Richer, Alexander Mogilny, etc. These were all pure scorers in their heyday. The difference was, and Lou admitted it during various quotes after the Kovalchuk trade and subsequent signing, that in those days you couldn't get those kinds of players in their primes without sacrificing major components. That is why none of them lasted (except Richer and to an extent Mogilny) because none of them were near their primes the way Kovalchuk is. He was just hoping to catch whatever life was left at the tail end of great careers, but that doesn't mean that this team hasn't always placed a premium value on those kinds of players.

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