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Daniel

DeBoer and Torts Should Be Fined

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Torterella strikes back. From tg

"I read it,” Tortorella said of DeBoer’s comment. “I think Peter needs to job his memory as far as the starting lineups that I’ve put in over in their building and really, basically, just shut up. And I need to also. I think the situation last night is disrespectful to players and I think we took a backwards step. I get put in a position when he puts a lineup like that out - and I’m not sure what’s going to happen if I put my top players out - so I have to answer the way I need to answer. Really, just look at the two lineups and some of the things he’s done through the games here, again, I don’t want to coach his team, but just shut up.

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And soccer can easily be dismissed outright for the ridiculous (and sometimes constant) diving and 'ow my leg is broken but now I'm ok' theatrics. That's part of the sport, though, and it's fans accept it. Same for fighting in hockey.

As for tying injury duration to suspension duration, that is an absolutely terrible idea. Bad hits aren't always intentional. That's way too black-and-white of a solution. It's bad enough that someone gets injured on a bad play, but then you're going to make the guy who admittedly hit someone too high, for example, sit out? Hedman would have missed an entire year for hitting Crosby into the boards last January if it was deemed he targeted the head.

Soccer, and it's occasional ridiculous theatrics, has a completely dominant position on the global sports market. A position hockey can never even dream to achieve. (There are similar debates in soccer as well because of various incarnations of 'unsportsmanlike conduct', but that is besides the point as it's occasional theatrics are unlikely to hinder the sports commercial success.)

If you want hockey to grow as a sport, you need to realize that the fighting is standing in the way of making hockey more mainstream.

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Here's that line in the Daily News

The frustrated Devils even left one of the locker stalls in the visiting team room damaged following the emotional contest.

Link

Edited by 95Crash

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Soccer, and it's occasional ridiculous theatrics, has a completely dominant position on the global sports market. A position hockey can never even dream to achieve. (There are similar debates in soccer as well because of various incarnations of 'unsportsmanlike conduct', but that is besides the point as it's occasional theatrics are unlikely to hinder the sports commercial success.)

If you want hockey to grow as a sport, you need to realize that the fighting is standing in the way of making hockey more mainstream.

People I know who don't watch soccer will say it's from the diving and perceived "wimpiness" diving gives it. It has a dominant position in global sports for one very very simple reason. It's the easiest sport to get together with people and play. All you need is a ball. Everyone can play it and therefore relate to it and it can be played in any climate. Rich people can play it, people in third world nations can play it. There's plenty of stories of how US Troops bond with Iraqis over soccer. It's a universally understood and appreciated sport.

Not a whole lot of people grow up with the ability to go out on a pond and play hockey, and most people who don't watch it mention their inability to follow the puck and the confusing rules as the reason, and not fighting. Hockey will probably always be a niche sport.

Hell, things that go on in soccer stands are way more violent than anything we'll see in most hockey games.

Edited by Devil Dan 56

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If you really think players are thinking "I shouldn't do this because it will cost me money or a suspension" before they do something, I really don't know what to tell you. Players do a lot of things in the heat of the moment. There's a reason fighting has been around for as long as the sport has been.

As for saying too much fighting makes it a second rate sport, the number of fights a season has been dropping for a long time. It's not like it's some sort of epidemic. Additionally, one of the first things a casual fan asks about is the fighting. It's very unique and intriguing to an outsider.

Exactly! Especially in a match like NJ vs. NY. It almost makes it easier to get the person interested in the game. Now, I have a girl that pretty much hangs with me 24/7 so she is exposed to Devils hockey all the time, but that does not necessarily mean shes actually watching the entire thing. We sit down to watch Devils v. Rangers, and I try to explain how much this game will effect my emotional well being (because even both FANBASES hate each other!) and it's kinda like, "ok, well I believe you but let's see this" kinda thought process.

We sit down for puck drop, and next thing you know we have an all out brawl. Immediately sucks in casual fans like herself into the game. She's huge into college football (bama fan) and all she can say is, "Holy sh!t. They really do hate each other, it's like the Auburn versus Alabama of hockey. That was awesome."

Fights are beneficial in different ways. Now do I agree with it happening at the start of every game? No... but sometimes it's justified. I like the way DiG put it... it's more than just the start of a game. It's the continuation of a brutal and hate filled saga (season series) coming to a climax (as far as the regular season goes anyway.) I thought it was exciting.

edit: I'd like to add that I don't believe that fighting is "stopping" hockey from going mainstream. Where do we gather that information from? Seriously? Hockey will never go mainstream completely in the U.S. because of the fact that a lot of people can't relate to it. When you've got every single Euro country and Russia making up the huge percentile of players on teams rosters, people have trouble relating to them in the U.S. With a sport like football or basketball you've got every single state in the union, kids grow up playing football, baseball, and basketball. The predominant players in those leagues are normally American (maybe not so much Baseball anymore, lol). There is ease of access to these sports. The equipment doesn't cost as much. Yada yada yada I know I'm going off on a tangent but you get my point.

Hockey has been making strides in the United States but it will never get on the same level as other sports as far as popularity or media coverage and frankly I think fighting has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Edited by DevilsFanSteve30

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Torts is so full of sh!t. There is absolutely no reason for any anger. The only debate should be if that kind of stuff is wanted in the game.

Torts is making a big deal about a 4th line starting a big game on the road? Like that hasn't been done before. Why the fvck is he barking at PDB? It makes absolute no sense. This isn't like Pete putting that line on the ice with a minute left after it became 4-2.

And John really wants to make a stink about what would happen if he started his top line at the start of the game? Janssen and Boulton are not good hockey players, but these are guys that abide by the "code". They aren't looking to start sh!t with top line guys. Just win the faceoff with your best line and take advantage of that joke of a line in their own end. Chances are it be 1-0 a lot sooner than it actually was. Don't make it act like he had no choice at all or the big bad goons would cheap shot their star players.

Then he gets Bickel to line up at center. So he was pretty much saying let's have a fight.

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Here's that line in the Daily News

Link

TG says he was there until everyone left and didn't see damage

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Soccer, and it's occasional ridiculous theatrics, has a completely dominant position on the global sports market. A position hockey can never even dream to achieve. (There are similar debates in soccer as well because of various incarnations of 'unsportsmanlike conduct', but that is besides the point as it's occasional theatrics are unlikely to hinder the sports commercial success.)

If you want hockey to grow as a sport, you need to realize that the fighting is standing in the way of making hockey more mainstream.

Unless the entire planet freezes over, hockey will never be that popular of a sport. There's a reason why it's huge in cold-climate areas and an afterthought in more temperate regions. Even the most stripped down version of a pickup game requires at least sticks, a ball or puck and a relatively smooth surface.

Soccer, on the other hand, is the easiest pickup game in the world. All you need is something roundish to kick around.

Fighting has absolutely nothing to do with hockey's lack of popularity around the world.

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Fighting is banned in college hockey and it doesn't play out like the wild west. The argument that fighting is okay because the players need to police themselves is a red herring. Fighting in general needs to go and the display at the beginning of last night's game was a complete embarrassment.

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People I know who don't watch soccer will say it's from the diving and perceived "wimpiness" diving gives it. It has a dominant position in global sports for one very very simple reason. It's the easiest sport to get together with people and play. All you need is a ball. Everyone can play it and therefore relate to it and it can be played in any climate. Rich people can play it, people in third world nations can play it. There's plenty of stories of how US Troops bond with Iraqis over soccer. It's a universally understood and appreciated sport.

Not a whole lot of people grow up with the ability to go out on a pond and play hockey, and most people who don't watch it mention their inability to follow the puck and the confusing rules as the reason, and not fighting. Hockey will probably always be a niche sport.

Hell, things that go on in soccer stands are way more violent than anything we'll see in most hockey games.

I don't understand what you are arguing right now. I agree on all the points you made about why soccer is and will continue to be the biggest sport in the world by a large margin. Hockey still has potential to grow however. In north america and northern europe in particular, which are the most important markets. The inability to follow the puck is definitely a big problem, one that Fox made great strides to alleviate once. Unfortunately that progress was later cancelled out by "purists". Likely the same people crowd who cling to fighting in hockey for sentimental reasons.

Fighting has absolutely nothing to do with hockey's lack of popularity around the world.

Maybe if you dig deeper you can find some more 'facts' up your ass. Norway is very much a cold and icy country, and yet hockey is a marginal sport here at best. It's horrible reputation based on misconceptions about fighting is very much one of the reasons.

Edited by njdevsftw

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ESPN: "Big" words from Torts

When asked about DeBoer's comments following the Rangers' 4-2 win at Madison Square Garden on Monday -- DeBoer called Tortorella a "hypocrite" for objecting to his starting lineup of tough guys -- Tortorella delivered a stern, succinct reply:

"Shut up."

ZING!

ooooh, I'm sure PDB is shaking in his suit. F - U TORTS

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At the rate it's going it wouldn't shock me if 'all' five skaters dropped the gloves the first game of the playoffs or next season, whenever they meet next :rolleyes:

I don't disagree with the premise though. Once, okay but twice is beyond stupid and both are equally culpable as much as Torts wanted to go holier than thou on DeBoer. Thing is, DeBoer had the first choice and he played right into their hands with that.

I see both sides of this. I mean, if DeBoer goes with his 1st unit, and the Rangers go with the "tough guys," what prevents, say, Prust from taking an early cheap shot at Parise or Henrique to help set the tone. Being the home team, the Rangers had the right to match what the Devils were sending out.

DeBoer wanted to avoid that and set his tough guys out first. In this case, Torts obliged by sending his tough guys and they threw down. It shouldn't have been taken that way though by both coaches...

On the other side, its a disgrace for the game...I don't like it and it should carry a stern warning from the league...

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Unless the entire planet freezes over, hockey will never be that popular of a sport. There's a reason why it's huge in cold-climate areas and an afterthought in more temperate regions. Even the most stripped down version of a pickup game requires at least sticks, a ball or puck and a relatively smooth surface.

Soccer, on the other hand, is the easiest pickup game in the world. All you need is something roundish to kick around.

Fighting has absolutely nothing to do with hockey's lack of popularity around the world.

Very very true.

I am also bringing a co-worker of mine to his first NHL game (and hockey game in general) ever on 3/29. Let's just say he is more excited about the potential of a fight breaking out on the ice than any goal that will be scored.

It has a place and is not the reason why it is not as popular as the other sports.

Edited by DevsMan84

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I am also bringing a co-worker of mine to his first NHL game (and hockey game in general) ever on 3/29. Let's just say he is more excited about the potential of a fight breaking out on the ice than any goal that will be scored.

It has a place and is not the reason why it is not as popular as the other sports.

I think it's likely your friend will be very unimpressed with hockey in general if the "fights" are what interests him. There are excellent alternatives with 'good fighting'.

Besides, marketing is about demographics and trying to appeal to a wide audience. Fist fights do not have a mainstream 'family appeal'.

Edited by njdevsftw

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Fighting is banned in college hockey and it doesn't play out like the wild west. The argument that fighting is okay because the players need to police themselves is a red herring. Fighting in general needs to go and the display at the beginning of last night's game was a complete embarrassment.

Fighting is banned in college hockey BUT with ban plus the manditory use of facecages has made many agitators bullet proof. You see more dangerous flying elbows, checks from behind, stickwork, and Sean Avery/Claude Lemieux-esque crap in the college game than you ever see in the pro game. Its gotten so bad that the college commisioners have recommended to the NCAA that facemasks be replaced with manditory half-shield as in the CHL.

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Maybe if you dig deeper you can find some more 'facts' up your ass. Norway is very much a cold and icy country, and yet hockey is a marginal sport here at best. It's horrible reputation based on misconceptions about fighting is very much one of the reasons.

Well, before I was just scratching my a$$hole's surface. Allow me to go knuckle-deep for you ...

Olympic hockey medal winners

Soccer World Cup winners

Please compare the number of nations anywhere near the equator, on the Mediterranean, or in any generally warm and winterless place on those two lists. If you wanna go wrist-deep, you could consider that the world's top professional leagues are in Canada, the U.S., Russia, the Czech Republic, Finland, and Sweden. All places that enjoy nice, pond-freezingly frigid winters.

Of course, that doesn't mean ALL cold countries love hockey. From doing a little research (aka, elbow-deep), it looks like the problem in Norway stems largely from a lack of funding (hockey is an expensive sport), whereas neighbors like Sweden and Finland built more rinks and funded more programs.

I could go all the way up to the shoulder for you, but considering that your entire argument is "fighting BAD!", I think it's your turn to pull something from a little deeper up your cornhole.

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Well, before I was just scratching my a$$hole's surface. Allow me to go knuckle-deep for you ...

Olympic hockey medal winners

Soccer World Cup winners

Please compare the number of nations anywhere near the equator, on the Mediterranean, or in any generally warm and winterless place on those two lists. If you wanna go wrist-deep, you could consider that the world's top professional leagues are in Canada, the U.S., Russia, the Czech Republic, Finland, and Sweden. All places that enjoy nice, pond-freezingly frigid winters.

Not once, in any of my posts, have I argued against this point. In fact I specifically wrote I agreed with it.

Of course, that doesn't mean ALL cold countries love hockey. From doing a little research (aka, elbow-deep), it looks like the problem in Norway stems largely from a lack of funding (hockey is an expensive sport), whereas neighbors like Sweden and Finland built more rinks and funded more programs.

I could go all the way up to the shoulder for you, but considering that your entire argument is "fighting BAD!", I think it's your turn to pull something from a little deeper up your cornhole.

I agree infrastructure is a huge part of the problem in Norway, however, funding comes from interest as well..

I am not the one posting my theories as 'facts' here.

Edited by njdevsftw

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in 5 years you'll see players hugging it out instead of fighting if this keeps up. Old time hockey.The fights were respectful.It sets the tone going forward into the playoffs. It would be a massive marketing tool, that no doubt the NHL will exploit, if these teams meet in a 7 game series. Why is it that nobody listens to the players? They all support what happened, but the media runs it's big mouth and causes such an issue.

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The inability to follow the puck is definitely a big problem, one that Fox made great strides to alleviate once. Unfortunately that progress was later cancelled out by "purists". Likely the same people crowd who cling to fighting in hockey for sentimental reasons.

People hated that cause it was awful! HDTV is a real great stride that fixed the problem. I have no issues ever following the puck if the game is in HD.

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Maybe if you dig deeper you can find some more 'facts' up your ass. Norway is very much a cold and icy country, and yet hockey is a marginal sport here at best. It's horrible reputation based on misconceptions about fighting is very much one of the reasons.

I think the problem in norway is that your league is so bad, so it dont attract people to watch hockeygames live. and you don´t have the same culture as sweden when it comes to start playing when you are very young, beacuse it is not the same status to be a hockeyplayer as if you where a skier

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As I always say, hockey is the only group sport where a wrong doing is settled on the spot by the professionals instead of cheap shots on the field or useless fights on the stands. You take that away, you start cheap shots on and off the ice.

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I'm sorry to not read what everyone has to say - I was trying to avoid the topic BUT then I realised I do want to say:

I think DeBoer had to put up that line. I think the Devils suck it up a little too often and then can't handle it when they step outside the gentlemanly boundaries. I feel like they punish themselves with weak play thereafter. While the results were not there this time, I think the team needs to have a little organization sanctioned chip. The team needs to get a little more offensive in every way :P I dont want anyone to say "Well that didn't play out so well, so lets go back to the high road." They need to sort through all of this and I think this was a great step.

Clearly everyone knows Tortorella is a gasbag --- I mean... he just is and he wears thin on everyone. Please I want him to keep on being him - because it's dishonest and eventually spawns gaping inconsistency. One of my favorite quotes stolen from Tom Robbins quoting Bob Dylan is "To live outside the law you must be honest." DeBoer appears to be very honest. He has what it takes to escape the bad dog feeling that results in so much failure. It's developed into an organizational trait that some guys can't quite reconcile and it wears kind of martyry on the majority. DeBoer is finding a way to eliminate it, it appears -- he's at least addressing it head on giving the team permission to be badasses when its appropriate. It's not there yet -- not at all... but this is a start it appears to me.

So end of the day this just shows me DeBoer sees the ENTIRE picture with this team. He's working through everything very laterally and I couldn't be happier.

YOU CAN STOP READING

I'm not sure about Lou -- he's either an EXTREMELY smart fast thinker who is just too linear for words, or he's a moderately smart slower thinker who can really spread out laterally when viewing situations. They achieve the same ends - so it doesn't matter much.

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People hated that cause it was awful! HDTV is a real great stride that fixed the problem. I have no issues ever following the puck if the game is in HD.

This whole conversation is awesome! The whole Norway Sweden angle -- love it!

I wanted to add to the puck following thing though.

I am never aware of following a puck while watching a game. I just know where it is. I'm watching the whole game and the puck is usually where the interesting play is going on. Trust your players. The players are so focused on the game that you cannot help but follow it. You see the whole ice, you don't follow the puck. You miss A LOT if you just follow the puck.

You don't just watch a dancers feet - the steps they take are a very small part of the dance. You can't just look at one dancer. You have to see the whole thing. You have to focus on the whole stage or you miss 75% of the show. A band plays together - you have a solo here and there but the greatness comes when it all combines harmony with melody

Hockey is not a narrow sport, just about a puck. If you try to make it that way, of course you won't find it interesting.

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As I always say, hockey is the only group sport where a wrong doing is settled on the spot by the professionals instead of cheap shots on the field or useless fights on the stands. You take that away, you start cheap shots on and off the ice.

And this is why I think fighting should be limited to when wrong doing happens. Especially now that we know the effects it has. The league should crack down on fighting for entertainment.

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