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Daniel

DeBoer and Torts Should Be Fined

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Great. That doesn't make it any less meaningless or disgraceful.

How do you that is it meaningless to the players? Many players find these fights exhilarating and they add energy for a lot for after.

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How do you that is it meaningless to the players? Many players find these fights exhilarating and they add energy for a lot for after.

If they add energy to 'players', from either team, the net effect is nil. Or did you miss Brodeur saying he thought he got a rough start because of the delay? He didn't sound like he was pumped up.

Edited by Triumph

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If they add energy to 'players', from either team, the net effect is nil. Or did you miss Brodeur saying he thought he got a rough start because of the delay? He didn't sound like he was pumped up.

I thought he said they got off to a rough start cause salvador was in the box and messed up the D pairs. He did talk about the 10 minute delay picking p gloves and scraping blood, but he was laughing when he said it. When I read the quote he sounded like he was upset, when I saw the interview it looked like a throwaway line.

The Carter fight was due to him busting dubinsky's sinuses last game. I still have no idea why the fact that a D took the opening draw didn't get more play I've seen 4'th lines start a few games in my life. Can anyone ever remember a D taking the opening face-off?

they all knew they were gonna fight at some part, get done on the opening drop, get it over with, go on with the game.

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I like fighting but dislike the staged aspect of it. When somebody charges the mound in baseball it really gets my adrenaline surging because it's spontaneous and usually accompanied by some real emotions and real action.

I've never been more thrilled by a hockey fight than when Ilya Kovalchuk drops em, because he's a guy I feel I can actually pull for in a fight. I root for Cam Janssen and Eric Boulton because they wear NJ sweaters, but if they were gone next year I don't think I'd shed a tear--nor would I if I saw them get beat down in a fight.

The hockey fighting style seems boring and defensive to me, the way they grab each others shoulders and whack at each other's cheeks. When Kovy let go and rattled Schenn's brain, I felt like the whole thing was worth a damn.

I guess the idea that there are "designated fighters" on a team upsets me, as much as "designated hitters" in baseball. If it's part of the game, it should be part of the game for everyone. If Zach Parise or Sidney Crosby are going to play chippy, or an opponent is going to disrespect them, let's see them throw down, not a god damn civil war-style paid substitute. Obviously anyone could refuse a challenge but if that anger is real, they wouldn't.

I guess it's ridiculous, but in my opinion hockey isn't a "manly" sport because a few of its players fight any more than America is a "manly" nation because a few of its citizens go to war. Point being if fighting as we know it disappeared from hockey, I wouldn't really mind, because it's kind of a sham anyway.

Edited by Ollie McKraut

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How about making common sense decisions regarding head injuries like taking the legal use of fists to one another's face out of the game? I'm fine with fighting having a place in the game, but what took place on Monday night is not hockey, it's a sideshow, done largely by sideshow players. It was a pissing contest between two coaches and several players, it had zero to do with the game of hockey.

How many concussions come from fists vs. elbows and shoulders? Besides, fists are only used when both participants are willing. Elbows and shoulders are far less selective with who they injure.

I mean, if Stevens wore these ...

Douglas-shoulder-pads.jpg

... instead of these ...

tre_stevens02.jpg

... Eric Lindros, Paul Kariya, Ron Francis, Shane Willis, etc., would probably be dead. (I couldn't find any pics of his elbow pads, but the guy had something like four elbowing minors in his whole career, so that point would be moot anyway.)

And it might have been a pissing contest, but I'd be surprised if there was a single ass in its seat during that donnybrook at the Garden. Even the suits. Sometimes pissing contests are entertaining, and hockey is entertainment above all else.

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Tri: you and I havent always seen exactly eye to eye on all things hockey, but I sincerely appreciate your voice of reason and eloquence in this thread. It's unfortunate that people can't understand the difference between that ridiculous circus show at 0:03 of the first at MSG and a fight that occurs when a player either sticks up for a teammate or tries to change the momentum of a game once they realize it might need to be changed.

I love physical hockey and I love fighting in hockey, but not when it's fighting for the sake of fighting. If someone drilled my top forward into the corner I'd be all over the opposing player in an instant, and I'd expect him to stand up and take a whopping for what he's done. With that being said, I would never try (as an irrelevant hockey player) to make myself relevant by fighting before there's even a reason.

And, for the record, I dont buy the "but those teams HATE each other" argument. You hate the Rangers? Good, I would hope so. So go beat them and take two points away from them on home ice.

Cam and Boults really taught them a lesson this time, didnt they?

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How many concussions come from fists vs. elbows and shoulders? Besides, fists are only used when both participants are willing. Elbows and shoulders are far less selective with who they injure.

I mean, if Stevens wore these ...

Douglas-shoulder-pads.jpg

... instead of these ...

tre_stevens02.jpg

... Eric Lindros, Paul Kariya, Ron Francis, Shane Willis, etc., would probably be dead. (I couldn't find any pics of his elbow pads, but the guy had something like four elbowing minors in his whole career, so that point would be moot anyway.)

And it might have been a pissing contest, but I'd be surprised if there was a single ass in its seat during that donnybrook at the Garden. Even the suits. Sometimes pissing contests are entertaining, and hockey is entertainment above all else.

Come on now you know those shoulder pads are Football body armour.

Are you realistically expecting players to play without plastic inserts, downgrading protection?

I wouldn’t play Rec hockey in pads without plastic inserts in , and these guys are blocking shots coming towards them at 100mph!!

I see what you are saying in terms of there being more important issues than fighting, and I am a fan of fights in hockey, removing it from the game would suck. But I wasn’t a fan of the start if that game, to me it cheapens fighting in hockey, it feels like WWE.

I have no problem with two guys squaring off in the middle of a game after a few hits or if words are exchanged. But the whole spectacle at the start of the game just seems wrong to me.

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Come on now you know those shoulder pads are Football body armour.

Are you realistically expecting players to play without plastic inserts, downgrading protection?

I wouldn’t play Rec hockey in pads without plastic inserts in , and these guys are blocking shots coming towards them at 100mph!!

OK, how about these shoulder pads ...

61632839fl8.jpg

vs. these shoulder pads ...

ovechkinpre10-thumb-454x291-26862.png

Considering that most shots are blocked with shin guards and not shoulder pads, and considering that guys like Stevens and Shanny weren't timid players who had long careers without major injuries from taking pucks to their underprotected shoulders, I'd say the equipment the guys wear today is unnecessarily bulky and dangerous to anyone they hit.

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If they add energy to 'players', from either team, the net effect is nil. Or did you miss Brodeur saying he thought he got a rough start because of the delay? He didn't sound like he was pumped up.

lame excuse from Brodeur. He's been in the league how many years already? That should not affect his focus or concentration one iota...he's played on teams where it wasn't uncommon to go 7-8 minutes without a single shot on goal fired on him. Never complained about that before

And who cares if the fights were "staged", so they were...they still served a purpose. The purpose was to physically intimidate the other team, beat them up, and prove you're top dog. This is hockey folks. Physical play and intimidation is still a major part of the game.

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Wanna know what's actually intimidating in the NHL? A forward you can't catch or stop...or a goalie you can't beat.

Think about it. If someone like Cam was really all that intimidating, why doesnt Pete put him out against Ovie, or Gaborik, or Stamkos to intimidate them?

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OK, how about these shoulder pads ...

61632839fl8.jpg

vs. these shoulder pads ...

ovechkinpre10-thumb-454x291-26862.png

Considering that most shots are blocked with shin guards and not shoulder pads, and considering that guys like Stevens and Shanny weren't timid players who had long careers without major injuries from taking pucks to their underprotected shoulders, I'd say the equipment the guys wear today is unnecessarily bulky and dangerous to anyone they hit.

Again that is a massively extreme example from one end of the scale to the other. Are you telling me you would be comfortable skating on the ice in Shanahan's shoulder pads during a game?

I have blocked plenty of shots off my elbows and shoulders, it only takes a sliding block and your whole body is at ground level. Alternatively a deflection off a stick and its coming up in the air.

The problem here is contact with the head. Having pads which are just foam is not going to stop a head injury if the player is struck at force by a 16 stone man skating at 30mph.

The advantages of plastic inserts far outweigh the disadvantages IMO.

Even top end pads these days have only a minimal layer of plastic which is behind the foam for structure anyway. Its even in the rules that protective equipment must have a half inch thick foam external covering.

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And who cares if the fights were "staged", so they were...they still served a purpose. The purpose was to physically intimidate the other team, beat them up, and prove you're top dog. This is hockey folks. Physical play and intimidation is still a major part of the game.

Yeah, I'm sure the good players get really scared when two goons who get a combined 7 minutes of ice time a game get into wrestling match for a couple of minutes. Guess that's why Jannsen gets the big bucks and a ton of icetime come playoff time, being that he's the top dog and all.

If only Jannsen had managed to land a few rights on Arron Ashem last Saturday, we might not have gotten our a$$es handed to us.

Edited by Daniel

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How many concussions come from fists vs. elbows and shoulders? Besides, fists are only used when both participants are willing. Elbows and shoulders are far less selective with who they injure.

I mean, if Stevens wore these ...

Douglas-shoulder-pads.jpg

... instead of these ...

tre_stevens02.jpg

... Eric Lindros, Paul Kariya, Ron Francis, Shane Willis, etc., would probably be dead. (I couldn't find any pics of his elbow pads, but the guy had something like four elbowing minors in his whole career, so that point would be moot anyway.)

And it might have been a pissing contest, but I'd be surprised if there was a single ass in its seat during that donnybrook at the Garden. Even the suits. Sometimes pissing contests are entertaining, and hockey is entertainment above all else.

The problem is not the equipment, its player's using the equipment for a purpose other than it was designed for. Anyone who had the misfortune of blocking a slap shot or sliding into the boards knows very well that the plastic inserts are a life saver. Don't punish players by compromising the safety their equipment provides just because a select few use it as a weapon rather than "armor". Punish the offenders with consequences sufficient to deter such actions and you will clean up the game while keeping it safe for others.

P.S. people are forgetting that underneath the plastic inserts are elbows and shoulders. Yes...Bones, and sharp at that. Is the plastic insert really the root of all evil, or is it the 220 lb guy swinging his elbow at your head?

Edited by Biggie B

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lame excuse from Brodeur. He's been in the league how many years already? That should not affect his focus or concentration one iota...he's played on teams where it wasn't uncommon to go 7-8 minutes without a single shot on goal fired on him. Never complained about that before

And who cares if the fights were "staged", so they were...they still served a purpose. The purpose was to physically intimidate the other team, beat them up, and prove you're top dog. This is hockey folks. Physical play and intimidation is still a major part of the game.

Man, you summed it up perfectly.

DeBoer wanted to set the tone the other night. That is all. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It just so happens, the Rangers were up to the challenge that night. Big deal.

To me, either you like fighting in the game or you don't. Whether it happens at the drop of the puck or in the middle of the game, what's the big difference?

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And who cares if the fights were "staged", so they were...they still served a purpose. The purpose was to physically intimidate the other team, beat them up, and prove you're top dog. This is hockey folks. Physical play and intimidation is still a major part of the game.

Stevens was intimidating because he could hit anyone. Nobody should be intimidated by Boulton or Janssen but the other team's 4th liners, because they won't have any contact with them. Aside from (maybe) an adrenaline rush, 4th liners dropping the gloves for no reason has no effect on anyone other than other 4th liners, and 4th liners rarely decide a hockey game (unless it's ours failing to clear the zone...).

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To me, either you like fighting in the game or you don't. Whether it happens at the drop of the puck or in the middle of the game, what's the big difference?

I love fighting when there's a good reason. I don't buy "these teams don't like each other" is a good reason. If somebody wanted to fight Carter over Dubinsky, that's one thing, but three fights? Really?

One of my favorite moments at a hockey game was a couple years ago (2008?) against the Thrashers. One of the Thrashers, forget who, boarded Zach. A couple sh!ts later, Julien sent Rupper out against his line, and Rupper beat the sh!t out of him. He learned a lesson, as did anybody else who thought he could run Zach and get away with it. I was thankful Rupp was on the team, sincerely enjoyed every second of the fight, and felt that it was worth it for Rupp to risk his health to drop the gloves there. I see a big diference between that and staged theatrics at the beginning of a game.

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lame excuse from Brodeur. He's been in the league how many years already? That should not affect his focus or concentration one iota...he's played on teams where it wasn't uncommon to go 7-8 minutes without a single shot on goal fired on him. Never complained about that before

And who cares if the fights were "staged", so they were...they still served a purpose. The purpose was to physically intimidate the other team, beat them up, and prove you're top dog. This is hockey folks. Physical play and intimidation is still a major part of the game.

As Joe said, apparently that comment was a little tongue in cheek - I didn't see Brodeur say it. Still, going without a shot is a lot different than just standing there watch them clean your teammate's blood off the ice.

Intimidate the other team? No real players fought, except Brandon Prust and Ryan Carter. Those two play in special teams situations. Who's getting intimidated by your assigned tough guy beating up their assigned tough guy? This is same sort of idiocy that leads Lou to have 2 enforcers on the team and for DeBoer to dress them. The 4th line has been an absolute wasteland this year, and you can see teams trying to get their best players on the ice against that line - for instance, the first game at MSG, who was Eric Boulton's most played against Ranger? Not Mike Rupp, or Prust, it was Brad Richards. I bet Richards was terrified of playing against Boulton.

Edited by Triumph

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I love fighting when there's a good reason. I don't buy "these teams don't like each other" is a good reason. If somebody wanted to fight Carter over Dubinsky, that's one thing, but three fights? Really?

One of my favorite moments at a hockey game was a couple years ago (2008?) against the Thrashers. One of the Thrashers, forget who, boarded Zach. A couple sh!ts later, Julien sent Rupper out against his line, and Rupper beat the sh!t out of him. He learned a lesson, as did anybody else who thought he could run Zach and get away with it. I was thankful Rupp was on the team, sincerely enjoyed every second of the fight, and felt that it was worth it for Rupp to risk his health to drop the gloves there. I see a big diference between that and staged theatrics at the beginning of a game.

DeBoer simply wanted to show the Rangers -- as well as his own team -- that the Devils didn't intend on being pushed around that night. So he sent out his toughest line to start the game. Tortorella said, OK, if that's the way you're going to play it, I'll match you with my tough guys. The puck dropped, and both teams went at it. The benches stood. The fans went wild. A little blood was spilled. And a tough game commenced. If you don't mind fighting in hockey, then I don't see why this was such a big deal.

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People really, really don't understand the reason for that fight. It was to send a message. The Devils were saying they weren't going to be pushed around and went for an early momentum grab. It backfired because the Rangers were up to the challenge.

Did anyone notice that there weren't any more fights in the game? Did anyone notice that there were hardly any penalties the rest of the game and that it was a tough playoff style game (until the Devils went into shell mode) and that everyone was throwing good clean checks?

The reason for that is that the 'useless' players set the tone early and got all of that stuff right out in the beginning. THEY EVEN SAID THAT'S WHY THEY DID IT!! If Rupp, Bickell, and Prust didn't feel it had to be done as well, they wouldn't have fought.

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DeBoer simply wanted to show the Rangers -- as well as his own team -- that the Devils didn't intend on being pushed around that night. So he sent out his toughest line to start the game. Tortorella said, OK, if that's the way you're going to play it, I'll match you with my tough guys. The puck dropped, and both teams went at it. The benches stood. The fans went wild. A little blood was spilled. And a tough game commenced. If you don't mind fighting in hockey, then I don't see why this was such a big deal.

My views on fighting changed last summer, as I said somewhere else in this thread. I think it still has a place in the game, and always should, but I think it needs to happen less frequently.

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As Joe said, apparently that comment was a little tongue in cheek - I didn't see Brodeur say it. Still, going without a shot is a lot different than just standing there watch them clean your teammate's blood off the ice.

Intimidate the other team? No real players fought, except Brandon Prust and Ryan Carter. Those two play in special teams situations. Who's getting intimidated by your assigned tough guy beating up their assigned tough guy? This is same sort of idiocy that leads Lou to have 2 enforcers on the team and for DeBoer to dress them. The 4th line has been an absolute wasteland this year, and you can see teams trying to get their best players on the ice against that line - for instance, the first game at MSG, who was Eric Boulton's most played against Ranger? Not Mike Rupp, or Prust, it was Brad Richards. I bet Richards was terrified of playing against Boulton.

Then why didn't they start their first line?

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Then why didn't they start their first line?

Same reasons you said before. The question isn't do people think this way, it's should they. I would argue that, even if the adrenaline boost is beneficial, and setting the tone matters in a physical game, the head injuries these guys suffer is enough to make us reconsider the way things are done, especially after 3 fighters died in one summer.

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Same reasons you said before. The question isn't do people think this way, it's should they. I would argue that, even if the adrenaline boost is beneficial, and setting the tone matters in a physical game, the head injuries these guys suffer is enough to make us reconsider the way things are done, especially after 3 fighters died in one summer.

Wait wait wait... Boogaard died from a drug and alcohol overdose. Rypien committed suicide after battling depression for over a decade. Many feel the depression stemmed from when his girlfriend died en route to one of his games when he was 16 or 17. Belak also suffered long term depression and there have been claims that his death was 'accidental strangulation'. I don't think I have to get into what that could mean, but his family thinks his death was accidental as well.

It's way deeper than they fought so they died.

Edited by Devil Dan 56

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All the comparisons to "staged WWE fighting" is a bad example, the punches thrown at in those 3 fights were meant to land and hurt.

The majority of people, nhl fans included, love fighting, there is a reason why almost every time there's a fight that the entire arena stands up to watch.

Also look at UFC, it's more popular then ever.

Fighting, in any aspect, is fun to watch.

Edited by Satans Hockey

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