Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
devilsrule33

Let's Look Back and See How Stupid We Were

98 posts in this topic

im right there with you on that one. Of course i appreciate Lou and everything he did for the organization, he's a legend no one can deny it. He made some incredible moves and decisions over the years and probably more good ones than bad ones. BUT... he did indeed made some pretty bad moves too and i'm not one of the fan making excuses for him pretending he's perfect and closing my eyes on stuff he did wrong.

i mean come on, almost every time someone post something against Lou saying he may have done a bad move, he's getting jump by people saying something like "i cant believe theres still people doubting Lou bla bla bla". When i read replies like that i feel like watching someone talking about the big bang at church and getting ripped by the people there.

I dont like Lou's way to deal with free agents and I never will, then most fans here will just go with it pretending that's the way to go. For an example, let's take the Parise situation and not talking extension during the season. Why? it's a distraction for the player? There's no way that i know for sure, (and let's just forget about the ownership issues here its just an example) but im pretty sure that in January while Parise was doing really good that if Lou would have approach him with a fair contract he would have sign it, things were going well and he was feeling good about the team... or even wait for the all stars break while Zach was just chilling for a week. But nop it was a distraction for Zach to take like... a DAY or even a FEW DAYS at worst to talk business with his agent and Lou. No instead Zach had to go through 6 MONTHS of constant questioning, hearing trade rumours at the deadline, constant reminders of his upcoming free agent situation during the playoffs, not knowing where he would end up, etc etc... well THATS DISTRACTION !!!!!! and you could see that Zach was really tired and annoyed by it

and now he's like 5-6 days away from july 1st, like i'm almost sure we could have missed the playoffs and Lou would have approach him and his agent on those same dates even with like 2months to get something done... like a week before free agency.

You simplify things entirely too much. Lou's free agency approach has always been to sign and re-sign players who WANT to be here. He is not interested in forcing people to be here. I mentioned earlier that when Greene was approaching free agency, he said none of his preliminary talks with Lou involved money. They were primarily about if he wants to be a Devil and such.

Like CR1976 said, a lot of people focus on the losses. Lou offered Niedermayer the maximum contract. Rafalski would have been a fool not to take that Detroit deal. Gionta wasn't worth to us what he got, same with Gomez. But, Elias and Greene went out and fielded offers and decided to stay. Clarkson, Salvador, Pandolfo, Langenbrunner, and Oduya all signed at the last second before hitting the market.

Lou will talk with Zach this week. If Zach wants to be a Devil and lead this team, Lou will pay him. Maybe not what a Minnesota deal or Pittsburgh deal would pay him, but he'd get his money. This is how he's always done business. The idea that he just sat around doing nothing is absurd.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well see im not one of those who think he should be perfect and i dont think id want anyone else than him for NJ but like i said im not gonna close my eyes on his bad moves or make excuses for him and pretend he's some kind of jesus 2.0 lol

Last season is on Lou, obviously It's maclean's fault technically but Lou waited WAY TO LONG to fire him, it was obvious that the ship was sinking with players letting it known that they were not happy with maclean's system and all yet Lou waited wayyy too much and he admitted being too patient amd that it was his fault.

I also dont think that i know everything and that i could do his job, absolutely not but i can still admit when hes making a bad decision, some folks here cant

No one said Lou is infallible. But your idea that he's a fool for not being on his knees pleading for Zach to stay and opening up the purse strings when there was a huge ownership problem going on is just over simplification. It's not that easy. An offer to Zach in January before it was known if he would totally recover could have been disastrous. Zach still isn't quite the level he was before the injury and there's no guarantee he ever will be. When signing a player to a contract that will greatly affect the next 10 years of a franchise, you need to be sure you are getting a good deal.

I think we are all happy that Lou didn't open the checkbook for Gomez. And that we weren't paying Gionta 5 million a year for the last 4 years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one said Lou is infallible. But your idea that he's a fool for not being on his knees pleading for Zach to stay and opening up the purse strings when there was a huge ownership problem going on is just over simplification. It's not that easy. An offer to Zach in January before it was known if he would totally recover could have been disastrous. Zach still isn't quite the level he was before the injury and there's no guarantee he ever will be. When signing a player to a contract that will greatly affect the next 10 years of a franchise, you need to be sure you are getting a good deal.

I think we are all happy that Lou didn't open the checkbook for Gomez. And that we weren't paying Gionta 5 million a year for the last 4 years.

Perhaps the only thing with the Zach negotiations that you can perhaps pin on Lou is that he didn't attempt to get a long term deal while Zach didn't have an agent, and even that is highly doubtful. From Zach's point of view, negotiating with an agent comes at a 10 percent premium, which means negotiating without an agent works to the advantage of both sides. Obviously though the downside is that you're agreeing to a long-term deal with less of a sense of how good the player will be during the life of the contract. It's also doubtful whether Zach would have agreed to anything other than a prohibitively enormous contract.

It's pretty clear that anything short of a $80 million offer at the deadline last summer would not get the deal done. In fact, as Sundstrom noted earlier, he heard from a fairly reliable source, at least so far as message board rumors go, that Zach was prepared to accept a 7 year $49 million deal at the deadline, but was advised by his agents to reject it. Whatever the case, the Devils wanted to lock up Zach long term last summer, but it just could not happen absent Lou developing the Jedi mind trick.

Marty was a very unique situation. He didn't have an agent, hence he got to keep about $4 million that he otherwise wouldn't have. He had already won three cups with the Devils as the backbone of the team. That's a rare scenario across the entire league.

Edited by Daniel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one said Lou is infallible. But your idea that he's a fool for not being on his knees pleading for Zach to stay and opening up the purse strings when there was a huge ownership problem going on is just over simplification. It's not that easy. An offer to Zach in January before it was known if he would totally recover could have been disastrous. Zach still isn't quite the level he was before the injury and there's no guarantee he ever will be. When signing a player to a contract that will greatly affect the next 10 years of a franchise, you need to be sure you are getting a good deal.

I think we are all happy that Lou didn't open the checkbook for Gomez. And that we weren't paying Gionta 5 million a year for the last 4 years.

of course im happy about gomez and gionta and thats the point exactly, it may be a risk during the season but we know zach and had 4 months to check his knee during the season. And while everything was going right and all theres a slim chance that the player take a fair price feeling good about the organization, its a risk either way but to wait 1 week before free agency ASSURE you that the price will be as high as it can be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

of course im happy about gomez and gionta and thats the point exactly, it may be a risk during the season but we know zach and had 4 months to check his knee during the season. And while everything was going right and all theres a slim chance that the player take a fair price feeling good about the organization, its a risk either way but to wait 1 week before free agency ASSURE you that the price will be as high as it can be.

But everything wasnt going right. He started the season very slowly. Plus at that team the team was in and out of playoff contention. This playoff run did a lot to fuel his decision if he stays.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well see im not one of those who think he should be perfect and i dont think id want anyone else than him for NJ but like i said im not gonna close my eyes on his bad moves or make excuses for him and pretend he's some kind of jesus 2.0 lol

Last season is on Lou, obviously It's maclean's fault technically but Lou waited WAY TO LONG to fire him, it was obvious that the ship was sinking with players letting it known that they were not happy with maclean's system and all yet Lou waited wayyy too much and he admitted being too patient amd that it was his fault.

I also dont think that i know everything and that i could do his job, absolutely not but i can still admit when hes making a bad decision, some folks here cant

Again, yeah, it's easy to say Lou just should've fired MacLean, but it's not like you can just snap your fingers and Plan B appears. Especially when the failure is so swift...Lou obviously didn't hire MacLean thinking MacLean was going to crash and burn like that. As far as the players went, it wouldn't have surprised me if Lou thought, "You know what, enough is enough, you guys have killed your fair share of coaches, you're all well-paid, this is my guy and you're going to learn to play for him." As we saw, it was also time for some of the old guard to be cleared out, so even though MacLean clearly wasn't the right guy, the players weren't blameless either. Lou really didn't have much choice but to try to stick it out initially, and it must have killed him that his guy didn't work out, and that he had go beg Lemaire to come out of retirement to help him out of such a difficult situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MacLean lasted all of 2.5 months. It's hard to fire a first year coach more quickly than that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MacLean lasted all of 2.5 months. It's hard to fire a first year coach more quickly than that.

It's also hard to do as poorly as he did.

I mean, the real issue was how badly the team did in December. The team got a run of poor luck in October, that carried over to November but then they started to pull some games out, but in December they just all fell apart. They were bad and unlucky, and that was unacceptable given how good the team was on paper.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But everything wasnt going right. He started the season very slowly. Plus at that team the team was in and out of playoff contention. This playoff run did a lot to fuel his decision if he stays.

And the funny thing is, was Zach's playoff run really all that great? I saw a guy who was trying as hard as he could but at times was getting shut down without too much trouble. What did he have, 6 non-empty net goals for the playoffs? Not trying to knock him, just saying this isn't the slamdunk "Sign up him up no matter what" decision some seem to think it should be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, yeah, it's easy to say Lou just should've fired MacLean, but it's not like you can just snap your fingers and Plan B appears. Especially when the failure is so swift...Lou obviously didn't hire MacLean thinking MacLean was going to crash and burn like that. As far as the players went, it wouldn't have surprised me if Lou thought, "You know what, enough is enough, you guys have killed your fair share of coaches, you're all well-paid, this is my guy and you're going to learn to play for him." As we saw, it was also time for some of the old guard to be cleared out, so even though MacLean clearly wasn't the right guy, the players weren't blameless either. Lou really didn't have much choice but to try to stick it out initially, and it must have killed him that his guy didn't work out, and that he had go beg Lemaire to come out of retirement to help him out of such a difficult situation.

listen... from a guy who admitted waiting to long and from a guy who fired a coach right before the playoffs on top of the conference, He could have done it. stop making excuses for the guy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

listen... from a guy who admitted waiting to long and from a guy who fired a coach right before the playoffs on top of the conference, He could have done it. stop making excuses for the guy.

Who should have been the replacement coach?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

listen... from a guy who admitted waiting to long and from a guy who fired a coach right before the playoffs on top of the conference, He could have done it. stop making excuses for the guy.

Could he have fired MacLean sooner? Yeah - a lot of people look to the day-after-Thanksgiving debacle, where the Devils came out with zero legs and were run by a bad Islanders team. Still, you can't argue that that would've saved the season - the Devils were already 7-14-2 after that game. Teams usually need around 92 points to make the playoffs, so that means the Devils would've had to get 76 points in 59 games to have a shot. That's a record like 35-18-6 - an extraordinarily tall order. The Devils played really well in the 2nd half of the season under Lemaire, but making the playoffs was already extremely improbable at that point. Sportsclubstats has the Devils at .83% to make the playoffs after that loss. Their model is far from perfect, but could anyone say there was an even 5% chance of that happening?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

listen... from a guy who admitted waiting to long and from a guy who fired a coach right before the playoffs on top of the conference, He could have done it. stop making excuses for the guy.

It got us Larsson, so all's well that ends well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fine guys, Lou is simply perfect, flawless and he's sh!tting gold bricks. Sorry for being so blind.

who's fault is it also that they started the season with a black cloud on top of the team knowing one or a few guys would have to be traded, bought out our sent to the minors? It's really not the best atmosphere to have in the locker room, especially with a new coach coming in.

seems here like i'm really picking on him thinking he's terrible and thats not the case at all but listen im not gonna make excuses for him on every single of his bad moves thats all, i'd rather just admit that he made a mistake and thats it. I don't necessarily doubt Lou but the guy is human and not perfect and i'm aware of that.

from lou HIMSELF

"In my opinion, we should not have been out of the playoffs and I take responsibility for it," Lamoriello told The Star-Ledger today. "There were a lot of extenuating things. We were good enough to be in it but I had too many players here at the beginning of last year.

"It's better sometimes to have less than more. It affected the mood, the morale and other intangibles like who's playing, who's not playing and who is going to be traded?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

listen... from a guy who admitted waiting to long and from a guy who fired a coach right before the playoffs on top of the conference, He could have done it. stop making excuses for the guy.

Stop oversimplifying everything and making it sound so easy. Like I said, no GM expects to have to have a Plan B in place so early...Lou clearly didn't have anyone that was readily available in mind...like I said, he practically had to beg a good friend in Lemaire to take a job that Lemaire probably wouldn't have taken for anyone other than Lou. And who knows...this is only speculation on my part, but he may have reached out to Lemaire earlier, only to hear "Thanks but no thanks, I'm enjoying retirement, I don't really want to coach again."

Great, so Lou recognized he made a mistake after the fact. I could think of a lot of things I've screwed up in life, but didn't realize at the time that I was making a mistake until well after the fact. A lot of things fell apart all at once to start the '10-'11 season, yet you come off like there was some quick fix that Lou should have been able to identify that would've just solved everything in one fell swoop. Lou might seem almost coldly robotic at times, but he's human at the end of the day, and was probably just as shocked and shaken by the first 41 games of that season as anyone...the moves he made going into that season were made by a GM who thought his team was going to contend for a Cup, not flounder and crash so brutally. Did you ever think that maybe a guy who was used to having the answers for much of his tenure simply didn't have one that time?

My problem with a lot of what you're saying, other than oversimplying just about everything you've posted, is that you're grading Lou on a ridiculous curve. You're expecting perfection in a job where the results are often imperfect.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My problem with a lot of what you're saying, other than oversimplying just about everything you've posted, is that you're grading Lou on a ridiculous curve. You're expecting perfection in a job where the results are often imperfect.

omg are you even reading what im saying I DONT CARE ABOUT THE MISTAKES HE MADE, i'd be dumb to be against Lou with all the success he brought to the organization and I DONT EXPECT PERFECTION all im saying and trying to point out is that most folks here are seeing him as PURELY PERFECT and unable to make a bad decision and refuse to admit that he does indeed make mistakes sometimes, that its a big one or a small one a mistake/bad decision is still one and if he does indeed make a mistake they keep on making excuses for him, THATS ALL.

edit: any examples that i used were purely example and OF COURSE theres behind the scene stuff going on that we don't know.

Edited by SterioDesign

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

omg are you even reading what im saying I DONT CARE ABOUT THE MISTAKES HE MADE, i'd be dumb to be against Lou with all the success he brought to the organization and I DONT EXPECT PERFECTION all im saying and trying to point out is that most folks here are seeing him as PURELY PERFECT and unable to make a bad decision and refuse to admit that he does indeed make mistakes sometimes, that its a big one or a small one a mistake/bad decision is still one and if he does indeed make a mistake they keep on making excuses for him, THATS ALL.

You couldn't be more wrong. If anything, the board grades Lou on some ridiculous curve like CR76 says.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You couldn't be more wrong. If anything, the board grades Lou on some ridiculous curve like CR76 says.

Just look at the draft, as an example. People who are saying they like the pick, or that Lou has a good track record and let's wait to see how it pans out, have to argue against people claiming Lou is a moron to have used the pick and it's obvious he made a bad play. Also, that the Devils kept the pick and then picked the obviously wrong player, as well.

All of this after winning 2 Stanley Cup games. Lou's gravy time for a job well done was about 2 days for some fans. :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

omg are you even reading what im saying I DONT CARE ABOUT THE MISTAKES HE MADE, i'd be dumb to be against Lou with all the success he brought to the organization and I DONT EXPECT PERFECTION all im saying and trying to point out is that most folks here are seeing him as PURELY PERFECT and unable to make a bad decision and refuse to admit that he does indeed make mistakes sometimes, that its a big one or a small one a mistake/bad decision is still one and if he does indeed make a mistake they keep on making excuses for him, THATS ALL.

edit: any examples that i used were purely example and OF COURSE theres behind the scene stuff going on that we don't know.

Lou makes plenty of mistakes, but almost all of them are made for the right reason. Yeah, he kept too many guys around last year. But where was he trading any of them? The Devils had so many bad contracts on their books, who was interested in those players? Was he just going to waive Colin White, say? I can't imagine he passed on trades for these guys - maybe he did. Maybe he could've traded Elias. That doesn't sound like a good move now, does it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lou makes plenty of mistakes, but almost all of them are made for the right reason. Yeah, he kept too many guys around last year. But where was he trading any of them? The Devils had so many bad contracts on their books, who was interested in those players? Was he just going to waive Colin White, say? I can't imagine he passed on trades for these guys - maybe he did. Maybe he could've traded Elias. That doesn't sound like a good move now, does it?

Summed up in bold. His moves haven't always worked, but the reasons behind why most of them were made are sound ones.

The only fairly recent signing I can really think of that had me saying "WTF?" on every level was Malakhov (after the lockout), especially at his price tag ($3.8 mil/year). Kovalchuk's contract in general had me saying the same thing, just because it was so long-term and so expensive, and even though Kovy clearly had holes in his game at the time of the signing, the guy clearly had some God-given talents that are not easy to find. I haven't always been a fan of the bringing back of ex-Devils, but even a lot of those moves made sense, depending on what the expectation levels were...the only guy I really expected would be better in his second go-around with the Devils was Rolston, and that falls under the "didn't work out at all but I understand what Lou was thinking" umbrella.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lou makes plenty of mistakes, but almost all of them are made for the right reason. Yeah, he kept too many guys around last year. But where was he trading any of them? The Devils had so many bad contracts on their books, who was interested in those players? Was he just going to waive Colin White, say? I can't imagine he passed on trades for these guys - maybe he did. Maybe he could've traded Elias. That doesn't sound like a good move now, does it?

like i said all i was pointing out here is the attitude of some guys telling off other posters for doubting Lou's decisions as if he's never been wrong in his whole life and that they we're stupid for thinking he could be wrong. Which i think is ridiculous. Thats all so i pointed out a few bad decisions just to name a few.

Signing Boulton and Janssen was a bonehead move though... i guess the good reason was to get bigger, meaner and tougher to play against... but it only made our 4th line dumber and easier to score against lol THAT was a bad move and im glad he repaired it in time for the playoffs, the 4th line pretty much carried us

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

like i said all i was pointing out here is the attitude of some guys telling off other posters for doubting Lou's decisions as if he's never been wrong in his whole life and that they we're stupid for thinking he could be wrong. Which i think is ridiculous. Thats all so i pointed out a few bad decisions just to name a few.

Signing Boulton and Janssen was a bonehead move though... i guess the good reason was to get bigger, meaner and tougher to play against... but it only made our 4th line dumber and easier to score against lol THAT was a bad move and im glad he repaired it in time for the playoffs, the 4th line pretty much carried us

Except no one said he was perfect. Everyone just said that he made mistakes and you could see what he was trying for, even if the planning ultimately failed. Like you just said, he signed Janssen and Boulton. The team got bigger, meaner, and tougher, and you had a second heavyweight if one got hurt. There ended up being injuries to other skill players (Zajac, Josefsen) plus players who just weren't as ready as the team had thought (Palmieri, Tedenby) and the goons ended up playing 48 (Cam) and 51 (Boulton) games. I don't think the plan was to have them playing 100 games between them as much as it was to be sure you had someone if you were playing a rough team. Actually, when it was announced that Cam's deal was a 2-way, I thought for sure they would bury him in the minors unless Boulton got hurt.

Again, not the best move in the world, but he was going somewhere with it. Had they both played 25 games a piece, it would STILL be a dumb move, but we wouldn't have to facepalm watching them not be able to handle a simple pass for the whole season. It wouldn't have been quite as obvious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0