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Jerzey

I predict Kovy's numbers will improve with the departure of Parise

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Ill give you mine! :)

Crosby

Malkin

Stamkos

Datsyuk

Kovalchuk

Henrik Sedin

Giroux

Ovechkin

Kopitar

Parise

Elias :beerbang:

Good list

Spezza and Tavares could be on there thuogh

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Good list

Spezza and Tavares could be on there thuogh

Should have a top 15 or 20 because there are so many good players.

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Ill give you mine! :)

Crosby

Malkin

Stamkos

Datsyuk

Kovalchuk

Henrik Sedin

Giroux

Ovechkin

Kopitar

Parise

Elias :beerbang:

Where is Cam Janssen? Seems like a major omission to me.

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I'd like to see your list of the top 10 forwards in the league. I'm genuinely curious.

I mean, lists like this are just bound to stir up debate, but I can name 10 forwards better than Kovalchuk pretty easily: Crosby, Malkin, Datsyuk, Stamkos, Kopitar, Thornton, Sedin, Sedin, Toews, Tim Sestito. Okay, just kidding about that last one. I mean, take your pick.

As Sterio said, I imagine there's value in Kovalchuk being able to take such a huge amount of minutes.

Edited by Triumph

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As Sterio said, I imagine there's value in Kovalchuk being able to take such a huge amount of minutes.

Brings up another point that the Kovy-haters make that his numbers are inflated because he's generally on the ice for the entire powerplay and a lot of his points come on the powerplay. Well, powerplay goals count last time I checked. And it's a good thing that the best forward can play effectively for the entirety of the powerplay.

We all talk about how great Larsson was for being able to rack a lot minutes especially as a 19 year old. Why is it any different for a forward who can score?

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I mean, lists like this are just bound to stir up debate, but I can name 10 forwards better than Kovalchuk pretty easily: Crosby, Malkin, Datsyuk, Stamkos, Kopitar, Thornton, Sedin, Sedin, Toews, Tim Sestito. Okay, just kidding about that last one. I mean, take your pick.

As Sterio said, I imagine there's value in Kovalchuk being able to take such a huge amount of minutes.

Toews isn't even the best player on his team... I'm sure your using some kind of advance stats to come up with this but Toews? C'mon, dude. The kid is a good player but he's not a top 10 player in the league.

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I mean, lists like this are just bound to stir up debate, but I can name 10 forwards better than Kovalchuk pretty easily: Crosby, Malkin, Datsyuk, Stamkos, Kopitar, Thornton, Sedin, Sedin, Toews, Tim Sestito. Okay, just kidding about that last one. I mean, take your pick.

As Sterio said, I imagine there's value in Kovalchuk being able to take such a huge amount of minutes.

Thorton not any more.

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Thorton not any more.

I could probably agree with that. I feel like some sort of malaise has come over him. Same thing with Lecavalier (before injuries) and where the hell is Eric Staal on his list?

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Toews isn't even the best player on his team... I'm sure your using some kind of advance stats to come up with this but Toews? C'mon, dude. The kid is a good player but he's not a top 10 player in the league.

Cool? I wasn't listing the 10 best players in the league. I was listing 10 forwards better than Kovalchuk. I figured Toews is a safe pick and that picks like Bergeron and J. Staal would be less popular.

I could probably agree with that. I feel like some sort of malaise has come over him. Same thing with Lecavalier (before injuries) and where the hell is Eric Staal on his list?

Lecavalier was a top forward for only 2 years - he's been seriously overrated. Thornton crushed it this year. Eric Staal is like if Kovalchuk played center - totally overrated based on goals-assists.

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Cool? I wasn't listing the 10 best players in the league. I was listing 10 forwards better than Kovalchuk. I figured Toews is a safe pick and that picks like Bergeron and J. Staal would be less popular.

Lecavalier was a top forward for only 2 years - he's been seriously overrated. Thornton crushed it this year. Eric Staal is like if Kovalchuk played center - totally overrated based on goals-assists.

My knock on Thorton is that he's not goal scorer. He's also 33, so you would expect the decline to come soon, if it hasn't happened already.

I know you don't care about stuff like that, but E. Staal has proven to have the intangibles.

Bergeron would be one of your contrarian picks. Thanks for resisting the urge.

This year will be a good test for J. Staal. But the fact remains, he was still a third-line center.

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Cool? I wasn't listing the 10 best players in the league. I was listing 10 forwards better than Kovalchuk. I figured Toews is a safe pick and that picks like Bergeron and J. Staal would be less popular.

Lecavalier was a top forward for only 2 years - he's been seriously overrated. Thornton crushed it this year. Eric Staal is like if Kovalchuk played center - totally overrated based on goals-assists.

I love guys like Bergeron, J. Staal, and Toews but they aren't game breakers in isolation of their team. They can all make plays to help their team win but they need something else to happen in order for their play to come to fruition. Kovalchuck, Staal, Ovechkin can do it all by themselves and with players like this there is more of a risk going the other way but that doesn't take away from their ability to win games or lead their team for long stretches on their own. Those other guys just can't do that.

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Lecavalier was a top forward for only 2 years - he's been seriously overrated.

He two great years because he had Marty St.Louis making him look good. Since then Marty St. Louis has been playing with Stamkos.

I don't think Eric Staal is overrated, he just has no support since the Stanley Cup.

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I love guys like Bergeron, J. Staal, and Toews but they aren't game breakers in isolation of their team. They can all make plays to help their team win but they need something else to happen in order for their play to come to fruition. Kovalchuck, Staal, Ovechkin can do it all by themselves and with players like this there is more of a risk going the other way but that doesn't take away from their ability to win games or lead their team for long stretches on their own. Those other guys just can't do that.

Yes, it does take away from that ability. It absolutely does. Yes, Kovalchuk has 10 games a year where he looks like the best player in NHL history and you wonder how he doesn't have 50 goals and 75 assists every year. He also has 10 games where he looks like total dogsh!t, and that costs the team wins. Staal and Ovechkin are the same way - Eric Staal is a bad defensive player. If Carolina had centers, he probably should be moved to wing. Ovechkin I only didn't include since people now think he's terrible, and I think Kovalchuk had a better year than he did, but Ovechkin was much, much better for the last 5 years.

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Yes, it does take away from that ability. It absolutely does. Yes, Kovalchuk has 10 games a year where he looks like the best player in NHL history and you wonder how he doesn't have 50 goals and 75 assists every year. He also has 10 games where he looks like total dogsh!t, and that costs the team wins. Staal and Ovechkin are the same way - Eric Staal is a bad defensive player. If Carolina had centers, he probably should be moved to wing. Ovechkin I only didn't include since people now think he's terrible, and I think Kovalchuk had a better year than he did, but Ovechkin was much, much better for the last 5 years.

Have to agree, but Staal has to take more risks because Carolina is often behind in games.

In regards to AO, what a difference NOT having Backstrom or Green last year did to him.

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Brings up another point that the Kovy-haters make that his numbers are inflated because he's generally on the ice for the entire powerplay and a lot of his points come on the powerplay. Well, powerplay goals count last time I checked.

Sounds like the whole bitchy series of points Rags fans make:

"Brodeur isn't even that good. His numbers are seriously inflated because he had a great defense in front of him."

"Devils were never that good. They only won 3 Cups because of Brodeur."

Unfortunately, I see a lot of that Ranger-ism in the Kovy haters when they're present for their one game a season..

Edited by DJ Eco

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\He also has 10 games where he looks like total dogsh!t, and that costs the team wins.

I think you're overstating that a bit. Off the top of my head, for this past season, I can only think of the dreadful performance against the Isles. I don't count his bad games during the playoffs, given that he was playing with an injury that, if it had been the regular season, could have kept him out for two weeks to a month. 2010-2011 I consider an anomoly for the entire team.

He also consistently has the most minutes on any given night, a tall task for a forward. You'd expect losses to fall on him more often, almost as a tautology. I could be convinced otherwise though if you can take a forward with comparable ice-time and a comparable supporting cast that costs his team wins.

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I think you're overstating that a bit. Off the top of my head, for this past season, I can only think of the dreadful performance against the Isles. I don't count his bad games during the playoffs, given that he was playing with an injury that, if it had been the regular season, could have kept him out for two weeks to a month. 2010-2011 I consider an anomoly for the entire team.

He's a break-even Fenwick player. Some nights, he's great. Other nights, he's terrible. Not always due to him, but he's usually the player carrying the puck the most when he's out on the ice.

The top players won't have this kind of disparity, because they are more often driving the play. We'd expect their best games to be better and also their worst games to be better than Kovalchuk's worst games.

He also consistently has the most minutes on any given night, a tall task for a forward. You'd expect losses to fall on him more often, almost as a tautology. I could be convinced otherwise though if you can take a forward with comparable ice-time and a comparable supporting cast that costs his team wins.

Admittedly this is on the coach, and I'd be curious to see how Kovalchuk would fare if he were given less ice time, but Ovechkin has played almost as many minutes with much better performance.

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Admittedly this is on the coach, and I'd be curious to see how Kovalchuk would fare if he were given less ice time, but Ovechkin has played almost as many minutes with much better performance.

Wasn't Ovechkin's ice-time cut dramatically when Hunter took over? I know he was getting less than 20 minutes in regulation during the playoffs.

Obviously over the course of their careers, Ovechkin has been the better player. And that certainly counts for something when evaluating who the better player is now. But Kovy was better than Ovechkin this past year. Makes it a tough call to say who I'd rather have right now.

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He's a break-even Fenwick player. Some nights, he's great. Other nights, he's terrible. Not always due to him, but he's usually the player carrying the puck the most when he's out on the ice.

The top players won't have this kind of disparity, because they are more often driving the play. We'd expect their best games to be better and also their worst games to be better than Kovalchuk's worst games.

Admittedly this is on the coach, and I'd be curious to see how Kovalchuk would fare if he were given less ice time, but Ovechkin has played almost as many minutes with much better performance.

This is why you can't just factor these ridiculous advanced stats and live by them. Ovechkin was very comfortable with his team in his mind and in his body since he joined the league then sh!t stopped being so comfortable and his play was affected. Not everything that happens on the ice is the result of the players skill. There are so many underlying things that go on that make things go the way that they do. Confidence is key!

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Wasn't Ovechkin's ice-time cut dramatically when Hunter took over? I know he was getting less than 20 minutes in regulation during the playoffs.

Obviously over the course of their careers, Ovechkin has been the better player. And that certainly counts for something when evaluating who the better player is now. But Kovy was better than Ovechkin this past year. Makes it a tough call to say who I'd rather have right now.

Ovechkin's 2 years younger, so I'd still rather have him. Hunter was a terrible coach, so it'll be interesting to see how Ovechkin responds. I don't think we'll be seeing 50+ goal, 450+ shot seasons anymore, but 300 shots and 30-35 goals? I could see that.

This is why you can't just factor these ridiculous advanced stats and live by them. Ovechkin was very comfortable with his team in his mind and in his body since he joined the league then sh!t stopped being so comfortable and his play was affected. Not everything that happens on the ice is the result of the players skill. There are so many underlying things that go on that make things go the way that they do. Confidence is key!

If I had insight into Alex Ovechkin's mind like you apparently do, I'd agree. I lack that insight.

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Ovechkin's 2 years younger, so I'd still rather have him. Hunter was a terrible coach, so it'll be interesting to see how Ovechkin responds. I don't think we'll be seeing 50+ goal, 450+ shot seasons anymore, but 300 shots and 30-35 goals? I could see that.

If I had insight into Alex Ovechkin's mind like you apparently do, I'd agree. I lack that insight.

If the game was played by robots your advanced stats would have complete merit.

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If the game was played by robots your advanced stats would have complete merit.

But since it's not, they have no merit. Gotcha. I've never claimed that 'advanced stats' (they really should be called basic stats, as they are incredibly basic) explain the game completely. They don't at all. They just explain the game better than my eyes, your eyes, and the regular statistics.

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I don't think Kovy's numbers will decrease if that's what we're arguing about. They could certainly increase if he plays with someone who elevates their game next year (Henrique, Zajac, etc..) but if either that doesn't happen or we don't get a new top line player it is unlikely to happen because Kovy is not going to be able to use his old ATL techniques (hopefully) of "play-the-game-by-myself" to score 100 points.

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But since it's not, they have no merit. Gotcha. I've never claimed that 'advanced stats' (they really should be called basic stats, as they are incredibly basic) explain the game completely. They don't at all. They just explain the game better than my eyes, your eyes, and the regular statistics.

I'm not trying to get you at all. I'd rather build team by finding the right pieces to the puzzle than taking some numbers and trying to put as many as those like numbers together to create the perfect product. There are very few players in this league that differ immensely talent wise and that's what I'm talking about. All the other guys need help to produce. They need to be "fitted" with their team. When this happens you have success.

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