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Lockout 2012-2013 (Hockey's back!)

   130 members have voted

  1. 1. When will we see hockey?

    • Oct 12
      10
    • Nov 12
      19
    • Dec 12
      26
    • Jan 13
      33
    • Feb 13
      1
    • Mar 13
      0
    • Apr 13
      0
    • Oct 13
      14
    • Never
      27

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1,718 posts in this topic

I was thinking that as well, the owners are getting crushed in the PR war. I wonder if this encounter ended in a hug/hand shake for newspapers.

I don't care who wins the pr war but I don't think the owners are gettign crushed in the pr war. Take one look at ever tsn.ca nhl article and the highest rated comments are always about the fans bashing the players.

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Oh look, the union is talking about decertification. That should end this right quick.

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Kind of disappointed about how civil that exchange with the fan and Bettman was. Wish the guy clocked Gary.

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Kind of disappointed about how civil that exchange with the fan and Bettman was. Wish the guy clocked Gary.
. I'm surprised Bettman was as polite to the guy as he was. I'm sure he realizes that being an a$$hole to a fan in the middle of all this will make him look even worse and won't help matters at all... But still, I'm surprised lol.

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Kind of disappointed about how civil that exchange with the fan and Bettman was. Wish the guy clocked Gary.

especially a flyers fan

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Ryan Miller endorsing decertification:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/exasperated-ryan-miller-heartily-endorses-decertification-of-union/article5578329/

“After watching the other sport leagues go through labour disputes last year, it is apparent that until decertification is filed, there will not be any real movement or negotiation,” Miller wrote in an e-mail to The Globe and Mail. “Many things in our negotiation are very consistent with the NFL and NBA negotiations, and both of those leagues filed papers necessary to decertify.

“It seems like the players in any league are going to be subjected to the same scripted labour dispute developed by [NHL and NBA law firm] Proskauer Rose in all collective bargaining discussions now and in the future. Decertification becomes part of the script because Gary Bettman and the owners are trying to get a sense of how far they can push us and at some point we have to say ‘enough.’

“I am tired of the disregard and the ego,” Miller said. “Our fans and sponsors are alienated, and this is hurting the game. This process has more of the appearance of brand suicide than a negotiation.”

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Decertification is coming - one wishes the owners would actually just save us all a few weeks and cave before that happens, but it's coming, then comes a deal. The league will never try to fight this in court.

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Decertification is coming - one wishes the owners would actually just save us all a few weeks and cave before that happens, but it's coming, then comes a deal. The league will never try to fight this in court.

Yeah yeah, it's part of the playbook, it happens in every labor battle now but with the way this league is run it wouldn't shock me if someone found a way to screw this up, especially since if the league ever did take it to court it's not like the players have ground to stand on when they're trying to argue decertification is not a 'tactic' since they've only made one real offer in six months.

The NFL players were losing in the courts before a settlement was reached, it's not a slam dunk this causes the NHL to cede except maybe for the fact that they probably won't win in Canadian court since I believe the lockout laws are stricter there than in US courts. Plus Fehr can't wait to get to court anyway because whatever I may think about him personally there's a reason he always killed baseball in the courts. He's a terrific lawyer.

Edited by NJDevs4978

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Yeah yeah, it's part of the playbook, it happens in every labor battle now but with the way this league is run it wouldn't shock me if someone found a way to screw this up, especially since if the league ever did take it to court it's not like the players have ground to stand on when they're trying to argue decertification is not a 'tactic' since they've only made one real offer in six months.

The NFL players were losing in the courts before a settlement was reached, it's not a slam dunk this causes the NHL to cede except maybe for the fact that they probably won't win in Canadian court since I believe the lockout laws are stricter there than in US courts. Plus Fehr can't wait to get to court anyway because whatever I may think about him personally there's a reason he always killed baseball in the courts. He's a terrific lawyer.

The NHLPA has a much better chance winning in court on the decertification issue than the NFLPA, based on the courts the NHLPA will most likely be litigating in, Southern District of New York and Second Circuit Court of Appeals, which tends to be more labor friendly than the Eighth Circuit, which ruled in the NFL's favor on decertification.

I think as a tactic, decertification makes no sense. The threat is to basically by law take things back to pre 2005, i.e.no salary cap. More than half the league cannot operate without one. The NHLPA, before decertifying, ought to look at what happened to the bakery union workers who no longer work for Hostess, because there is no more Hostess.

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Can someone explain what decertification is?

Decertification means that the NHLPA is giving official notice that it is no longer a union. (Note, this is US law, can't speak for how it works in Canada). The only reason sporting leagues can impose things like salary caps, amatuer drafts, entry level contract restrictions, etc., without violating antitrust laws, is because collective bargaining agreement with officially recognized unions trumps the antitrust laws. No union, means no CBA, which means owners can no longer collude to impose salary restricitons of any sort, and perhaps not even agree among themselves to abide by the rules of an amateur draft. Basically, if decertification holds up, hockey will be like European soccer where, roughly speaking, players can sign contracts with whoever they want for as long as they want, and teams can recruit and sign players as young as 14. In the long run it would mean that teams like the Devils would cease to exist in a manner where they had any realistic shot at competing for anything save getting an owner who doesn't care about throwing money down a sinkhole. It's only because there is a CBA that provides for a draft that the Devils have virtually everyone that's any good in their system or the roster.

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The NHLPA has a much better chance winning in court on the decertification issue than the NFLPA, based on the courts the NHLPA will most likely be litigating in, Southern District of New York and Second Circuit Court of Appeals, which tends to be more labor friendly than the Eighth Circuit, which ruled in the NFL's favor on decertification.

I think as a tactic, decertification makes no sense. The threat is to basically by law take things back to pre 2005, i.e.no salary cap. More than half the league cannot operate without one. The NHLPA, before decertifying, ought to look at what happened to the bakery union workers who no longer work for Hostess, because there is no more Hostess.

I'm sorry but this just makes absolutely no sense on any basis. You can't be more wrong about this. It's not to take it to pre 2005. It's to take it to pre anything in sports ever. Free agency at any age. No draft. No salary restrictions besides internal ones. They're not bakery workers - they are highly skilled laborers. If that means forming 2 hockey leagues in North America, so be it - the players would still do way better.

NHL teams don't have unlimited cash, and in top markets, revenue streams are largely tapped out - revenues are growing, no doubt, but not at the rate that they would have to sustain the league you envision. And again, if there'd be 2 leagues, that could work just fine. Either way, it's a nightmare scenario for franchise owners, who are fighting over whether they make $6M or $5M per year under the CBA the players submitted.

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Decertification means that the NHLPA is giving official notice that it is no longer a union. (Note, this is US law, can't speak for how it works in Canada). The only reason sporting leagues can impose things like salary caps, amatuer drafts, entry level contract restrictions, etc., without violating antitrust laws, is because collective bargaining agreement with officially recognized unions trumps the antitrust laws. No union, means no CBA, which means owners can no longer collude to impose salary restricitons of any sort, and perhaps not even agree among themselves to abide by the rules of an amateur draft. Basically, if decertification holds up, hockey will be like European soccer where, roughly speaking, players can sign contracts with whoever they want for as long as they want, and teams can recruit and sign players as young as 14. In the long run it would mean that teams like the Devils would cease to exist in a manner where they had any realistic shot at competing for anything save getting an owner who doesn't care about throwing money down a sinkhole. It's only because there is a CBA that provides for a draft that the Devils have virtually everyone that's any good in their system or the roster.

But the owners could obviously fight this in court, right? I mean, the players have to know this doesn't make for a healthy league.

Edit- and who the hell would want to own an NHL team if this happens? Most teams in European soccer lose buttloads of cash

Edited by SMantzas

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Pretty much the nuclear outcome of post-decertification would be something like the EPL where maybe 7-10 markets (NY, Toronto, Detroit, Philly, etc) can buy up all the best players and the other twenty teams including the Devils would be irrelevant for ages to come. And it would only be good for the upper crust of players, not so much so for the third and fourth-line pluggers. Then again, this lockout ain't doing them much good either.

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I'm sorry but this just makes absolutely no sense on any basis. You can't be more wrong about this. It's not to take it to pre 2005. It's to take it to pre anything in sports ever. Free agency at any age. No draft. No salary restrictions besides internal ones. They're not bakery workers - they are highly skilled laborers. If that means forming 2 hockey leagues in North America, so be it - the players would still do way better.

NHL teams don't have unlimited cash, and in top markets, revenue streams are largely tapped out - revenues are growing, no doubt, but not at the rate that they would have to sustain the league you envision. And again, if there'd be 2 leagues, that could work just fine. Either way, it's a nightmare scenario for franchise owners, who are fighting over whether they make $6M or $5M per year under the CBA the players submitted.

Yes I know it's much more than pre2005 (that is just short hand for basically no rules at all). And otherwise, you're missing my point. Decertification is indeed a nightmare for eighty percent of the league. So much so that without labor price fixing, they cannot survive, or could only survive playing in a B league, or being the Washington Generals to teams like the Rangers and Leafs, the exact same way that most English and Spanish soccer teams are complete jokes when compared to the big boys like Man U and Real Madrid. Decertification would be a pyrric victory for the players, and would be the end for teams like the Devils. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to get $15 million a year from the Rangers if you're Corey Perry (if they could throw $9 milion a year at Bobby Holik ten years ago, $15 mill per year is what a team that can pay as much as it wants would pay for Perry). Otherwise you'll get the $100k salary that a team like Florida could afford to pay you now that all of the other talented players are playing elsewhere.

If you don't believe me, please tell me how Man U has won more than half of the premier league championships over the past twenty years? Hint, it isn't because its management is good at sabremetrics.

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But the owners could obviously fight this in court, right? I mean, the players have to know this doesn't make for a healthy league.

Edit- and who the hell would want to own an NHL team if this happens? Most teams in European soccer lose buttloads of cash

Yes of course the owners would fight it in court, just as the NFL owners successfully did. However, given that the NHLPA would likely be in a different federal circuit, there's no guarantee that you get the same result.

If decertification is successful, no one would want to own a hockey team, outside of the major hockey markets. And even if you could find someone who would do so, such teams, like the Devils, are guaranteed to not be competing for anything except the B league cup.

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Its a shame that we are sitting here after Thanksgiving talking about lockouts, desertifications, Bettman, Fehr, CBA...in reality we should be full swing into the NHL season. So sad.

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I'm pretty sure this has woken up the owners. Up until this point they haven't really been fair, given in to any concessions. The owners aren't really negotiating in good faith, borderline in my opinion.

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Considering the owners have made all of two real offers and the players one, I don't think 'either' side has negotiated in good faith, really. If this was the players endgame though, why wouldn't they just get this started earlier? I guess they had to play this out long enough to show the moderates that the NHL was intractable since decertification needs to be voted on.

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I'm pretty sure this has woken up the owners. Up until this point they haven't really been fair, given in to any concessions. The owners aren't really negotiating in good faith, borderline in my opinion.

I doubt it. After seeing what happened with the NFL, the NHL owners definitely knew it was something in the NHLPAs toolkit. The NHL owners, or most of them, unlike the NFL are willing to call the bluff. If they were prepared to fold up shop in 2005 when decertification wasn't in the cards, imagine what they'd do now.

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I doubt it. After seeing what happened with the NFL, the NHL owners definitely knew it was something in the NHLPAs toolkit. The NHL owners, or most of them, unlike the NFL are willing to call the bluff. If they were prepared to fold up shop in 2005 when decertification wasn't in the cards, imagine what they'd do now.

Decertification doesn't really help the owners either though, since the cap/linkage would go bye-bye if they lost in court, as would the ability of at least 2/3 of the league to compete. It would be mutually assured destruction for all but the wealthiest markets and players.

Edited by NJDevs4978

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Decertification doesn't really help the owners either though, since the cap/linkage would go bye-bye if they lost in court, as would the ability of at least 2/3 of the league to compete. It would be mutually assured destruction for all but the wealthiest markets and players.

Exactly. Unlike an NFL franchise, owning a hockey team is not a licesnse to print money. In other words, the people who own half of the teams in the league will say, I don't need to own a hockey team that badly.

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Yes I know it's much more than pre2005 (that is just short hand for basically no rules at all). And otherwise, you're missing my point. Decertification is indeed a nightmare for eighty percent of the league. So much so that without labor price fixing, they cannot survive, or could only survive playing in a B league, or being the Washington Generals to teams like the Rangers and Leafs, the exact same way that most English and Spanish soccer teams are complete jokes when compared to the big boys like Man U and Real Madrid. Decertification would be a pyrric victory for the players, and would be the end for teams like the Devils. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to get $15 million a year from the Rangers if you're Corey Perry (if they could throw $9 milion a year at Bobby Holik ten years ago, $15 mill per year is what a team that can pay as much as it wants would pay for Perry). Otherwise you'll get the $100k salary that a team like Florida could afford to pay you now that all of the other talented players are playing elsewhere.

If you don't believe me, please tell me how Man U has won more than half of the premier league championships over the past twenty years? Hint, it isn't because its management is good at sabremetrics.

I don't know how revenues are generated in English soccer. In the NHL right now, national TV revenues are shared even though some teams clearly generate almost nothing and some teams generate lots of money. But England is different than the US and Canada - English cities are much closer together. It'd be like if the entire NHL were concentrated in the US Northeast.

So yeah, a super league would probably form, but it would not mean the end for the Devils at all, much as how there are still many, many soccer clubs in England despite the fact that Man U is dominant. Furthermore, I don't think many NHL owners are vanity owners - among top teams, the Wings and Rangers are owned by people who would lose money to win a championship, but I don't see many others.

All this is moot - the NHL will never let it get to decertification if the gap is less than $1M per season per team, like it is now.

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EDIT

All this is moot - the NHL will never let it get to decertification if the gap is less than $1M per season per team, like it is now.

Beat me to it.

Edited by Zubie#8

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