Dead

Lockout 2012-2013 (Hockey's back!)

   130 members have voted

  1. 1. When will we see hockey?

    • Oct 12
      10
    • Nov 12
      19
    • Dec 12
      26
    • Jan 13
      33
    • Feb 13
      1
    • Mar 13
      0
    • Apr 13
      0
    • Oct 13
      14
    • Never
      27

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

1,718 posts in this topic

100% agreed I dropped baseball after 1994!! Have never gone back

Wasn't that Donald Fehr who led the Players union through the strike? Now I know this is a lockout, and not strike, but Donald Fehr is no angel in these proceedings. I see a lot of Bettman hate on here, but I have to believe, as Triumph said, overall the owners are happy with their unprecedented revenue growth. While I am not really in either sides camp, I believe that Donald Fehr is a very big reason why this thing drags on the way it does. He is playing hard ball, and keeping his troops in line along the way, but there does not appear to be a real strategy for a true settlement in place. His jotting down notes on a napkin as "an offer" should have been seen as a red flag by the players. The fact that the Players first fully written offer was just a few weeks ago seems almost disinterested to me.

Either way both sides have lost big time here. I believe that in the end the owners will ultimately recoup these losses over many years. The players on the other hand will never recoup the lost time, and salary during their small window of oppurtunity, they call a career. This whole thing is just sucjh a shame...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wasn't that Donald Fehr who led the Players union through the strike? Now I know this is a lockout, and not strike, but Donald Fehr is no angel in these proceedings. I see a lot of Bettman hate on here, but I have to believe, as Triumph said, overall the owners are happy with their unprecedented revenue growth. While I am not really in either sides camp, I believe that Donald Fehr is a very big reason why this thing drags on the way it does. He is playing hard ball, and keeping his troops in line along the way, but there does not appear to be a real strategy for a true settlement in place. His jotting down notes on a napkin as "an offer" should have been seen as a red flag by the players. The fact that the Players first fully written offer was just a few weeks ago seems almost disinterested to me.

The players hired Fehr for this. They hired Fehr as a sign that they weren't going to let what happened to them last time happen to them this time. Goodenow was not Goodenow - not only did he lead them through a season-long lockout, it was clear that only a small group of players were loyal to him and there was not much communication with the rest of the union.

Fehr is not tipping his hand because, as I've mentioned earlier, anything the players don't concede is ignored by the NHL, and anything the NHLPA concedes is used in all future NHL offers. This was how the league operated during the last lockout - Goodenow offered a 24% rollback when, as I recall, the NHL's offered rollback was less substantial. But the NHL said 'yoink!' and when the season started in 2005-06, the players were making 24% less.

I am surprised there is not a deal yet, but that's because I would've figured the NHL would have made a move towards the players by now. Maybe after the December 5th Board of Governors meeting there'll be something.

Either way both sides have lost big time here. I believe that in the end the owners will ultimately recoup these losses over many years. The players on the other hand will never recoup the lost time, and salary during their small window of oppurtunity, they call a career. This whole thing is just sucjh a shame...

It isn't about money anymore. If the NHL split the difference in the money gap between the two sides (which is not wide) and agreed to some of the things the NHLPA wants with contracts there would be a deal. The NHL has not conceded anything significant to the NHLPA besides moving on Make Whole, which shouldn't even be a question.

Edited by Triumph

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fehr is not tipping his hand because, as I've mentioned earlier, anything the players don't concede is ignored by the NHL, and anything the NHLPA concedes is used in all future NHL offers. This was how the league operated during the last lockout - Goodenow offered a 24% rollback when, as I recall, the NHL's offered rollback was less substantial. But the NHL said 'yoink!' and when the season started in 2005-06, the players were making 24% less.

But you can't make a deal unless you make some concessions. The mark of a good negotiator is how he goes about this. Obviously you don't just admit, "Yeah, I'm willing to concede Y to try and get a deal done." Most good negotiators will offer Y in exchange for some big, unlikely-to-be-accepted concessions from the other side and issue an ultimatum that the deal be taken as is and/or by a very short deadline, after which Y will be taken back off of the table. Of course everybody knows thereafter that Y can be a part of a final deal, but it has been firmly demonstrated that the other side doesn't get Y easily.

If you're saying that it's in the PA's best interests to make the NHL move first, well yeah. It's always better in a negotiation to be the side that's holding to what it wants and not be the side that's moving towards the other's demands. But that doesn't have much to do with reaching an agreement. Making the deal is simply about feeling like you are better off making it than not making it (obvious statement is obvious). I think that we've already passed the point where one side should be thinking, "Sure, the deal we could make right now is acceptable, but if we hold out longer we can really screw the other side!" Each side, I think, has shown that it is not willing to just be demolished in this negotiation, so if we're not moving on, then at least one side must be feeling that the doable deal right now really is worse than continuing to cancel this season's games. So then the question is why does that side feel that way.

Or do you disagree? You think that League still believes it can tighten the screws on the players to get more out of them than in an acceptable deal that's available right now?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This was a tactical strategy to get Fehr out of the negotiating room. The owners don't need Bettman to be hardliners.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hell, having Jacobs in the room is worse than having Bettman in the room. Fehr's brother is still in the room anyway (as is Daly), it's not really a big deal they get rid of Don to talk to six players, a couple of which will be hardliners anyway. They're not empowered to negotiate anything, this is just another stupid PR ploy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hell, having Jacobs in the room is worse than having Bettman in the room. Fehr's brother is still in the room anyway (as is Daly), it's not really a big deal they get rid of Don to talk to six players, a couple of which will be hardliners anyway. They're not empowered to negotiate anything, this is just another stupid PR ploy.
. I'd like to think Daly and Steve Fehr being there without Don or Bettman could be a positive thing, seeing as how the two of them have actually seemed to have some constructive conversation with each other during the process. But you're probably right about it being another bullsh!t PR stunt, this is the NHL we're talking about here. I've come to always expect the worst with these dipsh!ts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure how much this can accomplish anyhow. Only Don Fehr can sign a CBA for the PA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're saying that it's in the PA's best interests to make the NHL move first, well yeah. It's always better in a negotiation to be the side that's holding to what it wants and not be the side that's moving towards the other's demands. But that doesn't have much to do with reaching an agreement. Making the deal is simply about feeling like you are better off making it than not making it (obvious statement is obvious). I think that we've already passed the point where one side should be thinking, "Sure, the deal we could make right now is acceptable, but if we hold out longer we can really screw the other side!" Each side, I think, has shown that it is not willing to just be demolished in this negotiation, so if we're not moving on, then at least one side must be feeling that the doable deal right now really is worse than continuing to cancel this season's games. So then the question is why does that side feel that way.

I don't disagree with any of this, but it works both ways. Both sides have passed the point where, at least to save this season, neither side is really going to 'cave' fully. Still, they've already lost so much, so how can they justify losing that if they don't get something out of it? What's the point of going this long for the owners without breaking the players? And what's the point of the players taking the deal the owners offered them 6 weeks ago, having already lost 3 more paychecks?

For there to be a compromise now, the NHL has to give something up. I think the players are more than open to making a deal, but they can't be seen as losing the negotiation outright. And that's the kind of thing you can do when your union averages $2 million a season.

Or do you disagree? You think that League still believes it can tighten the screws on the players to get more out of them than in an acceptable deal that's available right now?

I definitely think it's part of the league's end game to force the PA to overthrow Fehr and to accept far worse terms than they did in 2005, but I don't think that's their central strategy, because that means losing at least a season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I refuse to get optomistic at all but I saw these floating around twitter. Take them however you want:

https://twitter.com/wbzsports#

"WBZ's Steve Burton reports #nhl talks have made great progress behind closed doors and it looks like the season will be salvaged - @JoeGiza"

"WBZ's Steve Burton reports that a deal to save the #nhl season could be announcement tomorrow or Wednesday - @JoeGiza"

"WBZ's Steve Burton reports that a deal to save the #nhl season could be announced tomorrow or Wednesday - @JoeGiza"

https://twitter.com/HackswithHaggs#

"I will say this about @wbzsports Steve Burton. He also broke news Phil Kessel had testicular cancer few yrs back. So theres that #Bruinstalk"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't realize Gary Bettman invited Donald Fehr over for a slumber party this past weekend. I can see why they didn't want to have that leaked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I refuse to get optomistic at all but I saw these floating around twitter. Take them however you want:

https://twitter.com/wbzsports#

"WBZ's Steve Burton reports #nhl talks have made great progress behind closed doors and it looks like the season will be salvaged - @JoeGiza"

"WBZ's Steve Burton reports that a deal to save the #nhl season could be announcement tomorrow or Wednesday - @JoeGiza"

"WBZ's Steve Burton reports that a deal to save the #nhl season could be announced tomorrow or Wednesday - @JoeGiza"

https://twitter.com/HackswithHaggs#

"I will say this about @wbzsports Steve Burton. He also broke news Phil Kessel had testicular cancer few yrs back. So theres that #Bruinstalk"

Just saw that too, but I too refuse to get too excited over it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing that has me not immediately rejecting that report 100% is that it came out of Boston, where Jacobs controls the league. But I think it's really, really, really unlikely.

Edited by Triumph

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I'm still not buying it and there seems to be a lot of skeptics out there. The last lockout taught me to never get my hopes up until the ink was dry on the CBA.

https://twitter.com/adater

"Bill Daly denying @wbzsports on-air story saying NHL-players could announce a deal tomorrow or Wed. Steve Burton a good reporter though"

https://twitter.com/kluedeke29

"Can't find anything of substance on lockout's potential end but on eve of scheduled owner-player meeting color me a skeptic"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anton Tibaldi ‏@antontibaldi

Owners/Players only meeting a ploy to divert media attention while Bettman/Fehr hold secret meetings? #conspiracytheory

:icon23:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wanna try this too:

A deal to save the #NHL and sign a new #CBA could be announced at any time from right now and up until any point in the future

Look, I'm an insider!

Edited by Marshall
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wanna try this too:

A deal to save the #NHL and sign a new #CBA could be announced at any time from right now and up until any point in the future

Look, I'm an insider!

Looks like we finally found Incarcerated Bob!

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Apparently the meeting between owners and players is still going on.. What the hell could they be talking about for this long?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John Shannon ‏@JSportsnet

Hearing that progress was made in the meeting. Owners expect to continue talks tonight.

:pray:

Edited by Zubie#8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the owners moved, it could be over soon - by soon I mean by the end of the week they could have an agreement in principle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like Pens owner Burkle had a big impact on the players during this meeting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would be interesting as my nephew woukd go absolutely freaking insane that games would be played...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of the NHL "experts" i see in my twitter feed are already starting to position themselves to later backtrack on their mocking of Steve burton.

I know nothing has happened yet but I will find it hilarious if he was right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of the NHL "experts" i see in my twitter feed are already starting to position themselves to later backtrack on their mocking of Steve burton.

I know nothing has happened yet but I will find it hilarious if he was right.

He isn't right. Even if it's over tomorrow, he isn't right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@TGfireandice: RT @GlobeKPD: Getting some very positive vibes just now out of NHL's Manhattan Project. A vy encouraging word relayed from owner's side.

Positive vibes? Did they all get stoned and listen to Bob Marley?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites