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Daniel

Larsson

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Where did I say whether Larsson playing this way was good or bad?  I complimented him in one aspect of his game and fairly critiqued another aspect of his game.  Neither person disputed what I said is untrue but both seemed to feel it was unfair to say.

 

To clarify, I don't care if Larsson hits people, he doesn't put himself in a good position on the boards because he often won't fight for it, he's content to sit on the outside of the player and not win the puck.

 

I think people are too touchy on Larsson, as if talking about the areas he might improve in makes him actually play worse.

 

When you called him "soft". "Soft" in hockey terms is not a good thing. Maybe some people are too touchy about Larsson, but I would say far more people are way too critical of him and have unrealistic expectations. I don't agree with you that Larsson doesn't have good positioning on the boards and refuses to fight for pucks. I think he needs to build up more strength so that he can use his body better to win those puck battles, but I think that will come with age and experience. I don't think it's something he's doing wrong right now, particularly. His lack of unnecessary aggression I think will work to his advantage in the long run. He just needs to get a little stronger, a little faster, and a little more experienced. I think he is about where he should be in his development, I just wish he was playing every game.

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"he's just not that kind of player. It sounds like you want a different kind of player. He's not gonna be the physical monster like Shea Weber but there are plenty of other kinds of defensemen. I'm sure Senators fans though Karlsson was way too soft his first year (not that they're similar kinds of players) but would they now change him? Absolutely not. Hits=meaningless statistic. By your logic, Niedermayer must have been the softest player on earth. He was still pretty good"

 

#27 had skills to compensate for what he lacked as a younger player.  And he could play with a bit of an edge too.  He was by no means #3 but you piss him off and he'll get you.  #27 is not only one of the best Devils of all time he's one of the best D in all of NHL history of all time.  Extremely bad comparison.

 

I want to see Larsson play with that edge.  Show me something, kid.  Any fvcking loser can stand there and get ran over like he does all the damn time. (I know some people call this taking one for the team).  Playing with an edge doesn't mean he has to play like Weber.  He just has to play with some god damn confidence.  Your in the fvcking NHL, boy.  Act like you belong!  He can't use he's afraid to make mistake because he'll get benched.  He makes mistakes all the time and still gets ice. 

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what some seem to miss here... is that we all know he's gonna be an AHLer and have a long career... my worry is that he'll never be worth a 4th round pick. you can find player "like larsson and his ceiling and what he'd bring" in later round, its pretty common for dman. You don't use a top 4 pick to "just get that". Thats my problem, with a top pick you try to go for  the jackpot. Of course some great dman have being picked in the top 5 but Larsson was never projected to bring it all, he never had good production numbers anywhere".

 

And yes i know points are not everything, but he's certainly not bringing much defensively to compensate from what he's not producing and where he was drafted.

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I'd go for Brent Burns but don't think just Adam is enough. He would help us so much. And no Kane is better then both. There all good but Kane is the upper tier of the trio you named

Edited by CarterforPresident

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Larsson plays scared.   Let's talk about his pros first.   He has incredible vision.   He's a very good passer out of the break.   He may not be the fastest skater, but he can "float" when he has to and find the open point to take a shot.    He's also young and needs to fill out a bit.   I think he's going to be a top 2 D man in this league for a long time.   Nieds is a bad comparison because of what he became, but I remember MANY wanting his head early because he was too soft, made too many mistakes and was always thinking offense  (remember the games he suited up as a wing?) and getting burnt defensively.   I think he turned out ok, eh?   Of course the negatives with Larsson are glaring right now:  bad decisions with the puck; plays too soft for NHL hockey;  easily intimidated; doesn't have that nasty edge that makes up for other shortcomings in the NHL game and a general "European" softness that Don Cherry always screams about...until Peter Forsberg showed just how tough a Swede could be.

 

Larsson played better the first few games as a pro  (even pre-season) than he has now, and the biggest difference is he wasn't afraid to make mistakes early on.   He played a little too wrecklessly, but he was young and learning and played with confidence in himself.   He's lost that.  I think PDB has played with his head and now he just wants to play and is taking it a notch down to try and play clean hockey instead of winning hockey.   There's a whole other level to this kid.  The only question is can NJ get it out of him?   Nieds had Stevens to learn from and bail him out.   Larsson has nobody.    How I'd love to see a guy like Lidstrom take on a special coaching assignment and work with Larsson over the summer (no, I don't think Stevens can get it out of him.  His personality doesn't lend to working with a guy as intimidating as Stevens.   Even Nieds, and yes, Robinson would help.)   He has the goods.    We're not talking Brad Bombadir here.   Devils:  invest in your investment before he becomes a basket case and a could have been.

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Hedman is better than Duchene, probably, and possibly Kane.  At any rate it's close.  

 

Really?

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When you called him "soft". "Soft" in hockey terms is not a good thing. Maybe some people are too touchy about Larsson, but I would say far more people are way too critical of him and have unrealistic expectations. I don't agree with you that Larsson doesn't have good positioning on the boards and refuses to fight for pucks. I think he needs to build up more strength so that he can use his body better to win those puck battles, but I think that will come with age and experience. I don't think it's something he's doing wrong right now, particularly. His lack of unnecessary aggression I think will work to his advantage in the long run. He just needs to get a little stronger, a little faster, and a little more experienced. I think he is about where he should be in his development, I just wish he was playing every game.

 

But Larsson is soft when it comes to initiating contact.  It's not bad or good, it's just who he has been.  

 

I also called Larsson brave in a different aspect of the game, so I wasn't calling Larsson soft, I was calling that aspect of his game soft. You basically agree with me that he doesn't initiate contact, or at least you appear to be, which is what I was saying.

 

When you say he lacks "unnecessary aggression" it makes it seem like people want him to have "unnecessary" aggression when I think most people simply want him to play with more aggression, or closer to a proper amount.  That his lack of aggression is hurting his overall game.  Nobody is asking him to play stupidly or overly aggressive.

 

I think if you really watch Larsson play with pucks on the boards, he loses too many battles where he is the first man there, those should be wins. He usually is not the first man there because his footwork isn't good enough yet, he normally does not win those pucks. In the worst case scenarios, his footwork being poor prevents him from even creating a battle and the other team wins free possession with space and time to work with. His footwork problems are definitely a current bad aspect.

Edited by Devils731

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"Son, finish your algebra!"

 

"But Dad, I'm only 6 years old"

 

The kid can't skate at this level.  It's painfully obvious. If he corrects this, he will be as good as we all hope.  It's on him, not PDM or anyone else.

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this strikes me as the Robinson Cano argument: he looks smooth and doesn't really show emotion so people think he doesn't care enough or doesn't try hard enough with no real evidence to back that up besides looking at their demeanor 

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this strikes me as the Robinson Cano argument: he looks smooth and doesn't really show emotion so people think he doesn't care enough or doesn't try hard enough with no real evidence to back that up besides looking at their demeanor 

 

I don't think anyone said Larsson didn't care or isn't trying hard, it's that his play isn't showing enough alacrity.  Being too passive isn't the same as not caring or not trying.

 

Larsson and smooth don't really go together either, right now.  He's fallen or stumbled multiple times this season, just trying to start skating backwards.  The last time was a game or two ago.

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Hedman is better than Duchene, probably, and possibly Kane. At any rate it's close. You will always regret drafting Larsson if you judge players by points, because Larsson will not score that many of them.

Larsson's 'softness' always cracks me up. Yeah the guy who takes all the hits and seldom coughs up the puck to avoid a hit? Soft. What a baby.

Lol hedman better than kane and duchene... Come on man. Only Hedman's mom would agree with you on that.

So okay, name me a franchise dman (active or non-active) who was not putting up a decent amount of points but still would have been worth a top 4 pick.

Ill give you a list of guys you cant pick.... Lidstrom, niedermayer, stevens, bourques, orr, robinson, chara, weber, doughty, pronger, leetch, potvin, coffey, harvey, keith etc etc

So youre saying that his best assets are his passes and vision... Yet he wont be able to put lots of points you say... Means then that he'll be hard as fvck to play against? Well no cause hes not aggressive, easy to go around and hes not great at blocking shots...

He doesnt have the assets to be an elite offensive dman, and he doesnt have the assets to be a great shutdown dman... So hes a somewhat average 2way player at best cause hes certainly not elite at any end.

So what the hell is he supposed to become in your mind to be worth that 4th pick?

Edited by SterioDesign

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So youre saying that his best assets are his passes and vision... Yet he wont be able to put lots of points you say... Means then that he'll be hard as fvck to play against? Well no cause hes not aggressive, easy to go around and hes not great at blocking shots...

 


He doesnt have the assets to be an elite offensive dman, and he doesnt have the assets to be a great shutdown dman... So hes a somewhat average 2way player at best cause hes certainly not elite at any end. 

 

 

If he was elite at any end we wouldn't be having this conversation about what he'll develop into. Isn't that obvious? Passing and vision doesn't have to result in points - this season is proof of that, since no forward can put the puck in the net, Adam gets no PP time and usually starts in his own zone. 

 

I don't see why you have to be aggressive to be a great shutdown d-man. Positioning is more important and that can be taught - ask Mike Mottau. As for blocked shots...he has blocked more shots than Volchenkov and is third on the team behind  Slavador and Greene in that aspect. 

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If he was elite at any end we wouldn't be having this conversation about what he'll develop into. Isn't that obvious? Passing and vision doesn't have to result in points - this season is proof of that, since no forward can put the puck in the net, Adam gets no PP time and usually starts in his own zone. 

 

I don't see why you have to be aggressive to be a great shutdown d-man. Positioning is more important and that can be taught - ask Mike Mottau. As for blocked shots...he has blocked more shots than Volchenkov and is third on the team behind  Slavador and Greene in that aspect. 

 

being the best at something on the D on "this team" is not that great of an achievement.

 

and it's not as if every game we're telling ourselves, what a fvcking stud remember that play he did and that breakout and that pass? i wish i could see it but i simply don't see anything more than the other guys in Larsson. And i'm not gonna try to convinced myself either to see something that isnt there.

Edited by SterioDesign

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It takes defensemen, particularly younger defense much more time to develop in the NHL.  But he is on the right track and is a keeper.

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I don't think anyone said Larsson didn't care or isn't trying hard, it's that his play isn't showing enough alacrity.  Being too passive isn't the same as not caring or not trying.

 

Larsson and smooth don't really go together either, right now.  He's fallen or stumbled multiple times this season, just trying to start skating backwards.  The last time was a game or two ago.

Yup, it could be he's thnking too much which is slowing him down mentally. defense is about staying ahead of the play and being quick  its obvious he doesnt have fast feet so he needs to keep his motor reving at a high rate. when the coaching staff see's that motor dwindle they scratch him  you can tell they worked hard on his backwards crossover starts to get him up to NHL speed and are trying to teach him how to use his size/length to angle rushers off  hopefully that and pro office training can bring him up to adequate.  he's been lucky paired up with fast feet Andy greene who can swoop in and dig a puck out behind the net and skate it out under heavy pressure, because larsson is nowhere near doing that yet. NO ONE can say at this point what we have in him

 

and yes he is getting run at and its not just behind the net its on the side boards as well, amazing he has taken that heavy pounding without injury which is a good sign

Edited by EdgeControl

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Larsson needs to improve his skating, bulk up a bit, improve his grit and confidence, and he'll be okay.

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Lol hedman better than kane and duchene... Come on man. Only Hedman's mom would agree with you on that.

So okay, name me a franchise dman (active or non-active) who was not putting up a decent amount of points but still would have been worth a top 4 pick.

Ill give you a list of guys you cant pick.... Lidstrom, niedermayer, stevens, bourques, orr, robinson, chara, weber, doughty, pronger, leetch, potvin, coffey, harvey, keith etc etc

So youre saying that his best assets are his passes and vision... Yet he wont be able to put lots of points you say... Means then that he'll be hard as fvck to play against? Well no cause hes not aggressive, easy to go around and hes not great at blocking shots...

He doesnt have the assets to be an elite offensive dman, and he doesnt have the assets to be a great shutdown dman... So hes a somewhat average 2way player at best cause hes certainly not elite at any end.

So what the hell is he supposed to become in your mind to be worth that 4th pick?

 

The game has changed a ton, so throw out anyone who was drafted before 1996.  Although I might take Brad McCrimmon 4th overall, hard to say really.

 

Two, putting up points is not in and of itself a valuable skill - a defenseman who plays on the power play will put up points.  The question is, is he affecting the power play in a positive way?  Much tougher question to answer.  If the Devils put Larsson on the power play, even with how bad he would be at that right now, he'd have more points for sure.  But would he be a better player?    

 

Duchene and Kane have wonderful offensive abilities but how much are they helping?  Probably some, but not as much as you'd think.  Evander Kane is on pace for a 56 point season and you're going gaga over this?  He's better than Hedman who himself would be on pace for 36 points, including 9 goals, and who drives play forward in a way that Kane probably doesn't yet?  I mean the argument you are making is that forwards are more valuable than defensemen.  I don't believe that to be true.

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The other thing about Hedman is that he might actually put up gaudy offensive numbers in a few years with different coaching and nore experience. He appears to have the offensive ability based on the fact that he's chosen to take penalty shots.

Re Larsson being soft, there are a few hall of fame defensemen that had that reputation, most notably Lidstrom. The problem is that Larsson doesn't have nearly enough skill to get away with that. He got his clock cleaned a few times during the world juniors much less than by the likes of Subban.

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The other thing about Hedman is that he might actually put up gaudy offensive numbers in a few years with different coaching and nore experience. He appears to have the offensive ability based on the fact that he's chosen to take penalty shots.

Re Larsson being soft, there are a few hall of fame defensemen that had that reputation, most notably Lidstrom. The problem is that Larsson doesn't have nearly enough skill to get away with that. He got his clock cleaned a few times during the world juniors much less than by the likes of Subban.

I think Larsson getting even the tiniest bit faster will significantly help in that regard. I may be seeing something, but I feel like opposing players often target Larsson by finishing their hits late. That either says: A) I respect him as a player and appreciate his skill or B) It's like hitting Stephen Gionta!

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I'm not Hedman's mom and I still would pick him before Duchene or Kane.
 
It's a bit unfair to judge Larsson at this stage, especially after a bad game. He hasn't had a very good year, but his confidence is likely gone, and I find it hard to believe that he has had any time to develop this year. Take a look at any other defenseman drafted that year. No one is near what their potential could be, not even Hamilton.

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Defense is that hardest position to come in young, it took Neids yeard before he fullfilled hi potential.  Larsson is doing well, he shows flashes of billiance and flahsed of immaturity, extpected at 20.

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Really physical, or really offensive defensemen show more when they're young. Larsson's game is based on positioning and intelligence, which means as he learns, he's going to get exposed. I think he does a lot right, but when he does something wrong, we're a lot more likely to notice. It doesn't help that no one is playing well, and it means that when someone makes a mistake, it usually seems to end up in the back of the net. IMHO he looks a lot better than he did this time last year, and he's still 20, which means he hasn't reached his full potential. Hopefully, Stevens gets better as a coach, since IMO he hasn't done as well with anyone as Robinson, not helpful with a young defensive core on their way in.

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