Summer 2013 UFA/RFA Thread

[2ELIAS6]

Of course, but that's besides the point. You stated that "just read an article that toronto may not be willing to dish out the cashola for clarkson that everyone has been projecting" and that was not said.

Thats what the entire article is about that he may not be worth to Toronto what everyone is thinking.. did you read the article? Ill break it down for you, the blogger that writes for Toronto is guessing that they are not going to pay him what everyone thinks.. if they are even as interested in him as what everyone thinks

[SterioDesign]

Better way of asking this question: How many guys walked that we (Lou) wanted to keep? Niedermayer, Parise, and....? We knew Gomez was a goner (and rightfully so). We knew Holik was a goner (and rightfully so). Rafalski, Paul Martin, Brian Gionta, John Madden...most of our losses were guys who either got stupid contracts or we were going to let walk anyway. Or they wanted out (like Martin & I believe Parise wanted out). Not everyone wants to stay w/ this franchise.

 

thats true and alright... work with me here. And you're right that not everyone wants to stay with their franchise. And thats part of my point. 

 

1- it's not about what happened its about the way and its not pointing out exact situations.

 

2- its STRICTLY about me not liking the situation Lou is putting himself and the players in term of negotiations. We can throw examples all day long that this and this and this happened or that this this and this could happen sometimes it turned out good and sometimes it didnt.

 

3- for the LAST TIME, i'm not suggesting anything. i.e. saying that he should sign all his players early or throw them the bank or anything. I never said that. That he HAS to either sign or trade or anything. Obviously there's shades and it's not black on white. That's what you guys seems to miss in every single of my posts.

 

4- All im saying is that Lou is not adjusting (other than Stevens, Brodeur and Zajac) but im pretty sure the Zajac signing was because he realized that he simply couldnt take the risk to lose his first line/best center when that one should really be a 2nd line center and he knew he had lots of big upcoming UFAs and wanted to get this out of the way. He simply couldnt and i'm giving him credits for that.

 

to sum up I don't like that he's using this path, cause you're cutting possibilities for yourself that way.

 

All i'd like from Lou is that he'd start talks earlier not to get a direct results but to be able to handle situations with all the inputs that he can get and make the right moves in order to calculate and minimize problems. He's not doing that.

 

By meeting with guys strictly after the season (if thats true), let's say there's a situation (and AGAIN thats an EXAMPLE) where he feel he's not certain a player wants to remain a Devils or that he feels that he's asking too much and that they'd pass on him. Well at least Lou has that knowledge and can play his cards from there. Maybe its not worth it to move him before deadline cause he thinks that guy can bring more in a playoffs run than what you could get for him could help the future, or get a sense of what he'd be worth in a package on draft day or anything worst case scenario. Like i said, it's just a matter of getting a pulse of every situations knowing where you're heading so you can play your card with no risk of getting surprised last minutes and run out of time to find the way to make things work.

 

Same situation that he's not talking with a guy and only have a short exit meeting with him and then approach his agent a week before free agency and only then learn what the guy is looking for too much or that he'd want to test the market and then lose him for nothing or have to overpay to retain his service. Well a situation like this can either 1- fvck his financial grid he had established 2- force him to make another move that he would not have done to patch that hole. etc etc but since it's last minutes you can burn yourself not being fully prepared to every possible scenarios. 3- if he would have known that the player was probably not gonna be re-signed... chances are that it could not have got a lot for him but since you're losing him you still always have that card and pry a little something for him worst case scenario.

Edited June 18, 2013 by SterioDesign

[ghdi]

Thats what the entire article is about that he may not be worth to Toronto what everyone is thinking.. did you read the article? Ill break it down for you, the blogger that writes for Toronto is guessing that they are not going to pay him what everyone thinks.. if they are even as interested in him as what everyone thinks

 

Let me break it down for you. Your quote "toronto may not be willing to dish out the cashola for clarkson that everyone has been projecting" made it sound like the article had information from inside the organization. Period. That's the only thing I was referring to. Its an opinion that Clarky may not be worth the amount of money that is being rumored, and in fact (http://theleafsnation.com/2013/6/18/forecasting-david-clarkson-is-he-worth-a-big-ufa-contract) there is nothing in this article that states the Leafs are not willing to pay it. The only thing it does state is that the writer doesn't think he's worth a big contract. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. I agree with him, I think Clarkson is a 3M player, and that whole article is just one person's opinion with nothing mentioning the organization's possible motivation or lack thereof.

 

Get it? You misrepresented what you stated the article to be about. Did you even read it? Had you said "This guy doesnt think Clarkson is worth it" would describe the article. He's not an insider.

 

I'd also give Mirtle's opinion (who states that Clarkson could double his salary) quite a bit more weight being that he's a Toronto-based hockey writer for one of their biggest publications and not a Leafs blogger based in Vancouver.

Edited June 18, 2013 by ghdi

[2ELIAS6]

Let me break it down for you. Your quote "toronto may not be willing to dish out the cashola for clarkson that everyone has been projecting" made it sound like the article had information from inside the organization. Period. That's the only thing I was referring to. Its an opinion that Clarky may not be worth the amount of money that is being rumored, and in fact (http://theleafsnation.com/2013/6/18/forecasting-david-clarkson-is-he-worth-a-big-ufa-contract) there is nothing in this article that states the Leafs are not willing to pay it. The only thing it does state is that the writer doesn't think he's worth a big contract. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. I agree with him, I think Clarkson is a 3M player, and that whole article is just one person's opinion with nothing mentioning the organization's possible motivation or lack thereof.

 

Get it? You misrepresented what you stated the article to be about. Did you even read it? Had you said "This guy doesnt think Clarkson is worth it" would describe the article. He's not an insider.

 

I'd also give Mirtle's opinion (who states that Clarkson could double his salary) quite a bit more weight being that he's a Toronto-based hockey writer for one of their biggest publications and not a Leafs blogger based in Vancouver.

I never stated that Toronto was not in the market on him where everyone assumed them to be dollar wise.. as you quoted and bolded my words (good job) i said that they MAY NOT not that they werent.... obviously what i was saying was based off of what i read and who wrote it.. jesus christ.. talk about over reading into something someone said on a forum board.. but go ahead if you want to be a douche im down for that.

[ghdi]

thats true and alright... work with me here. And you're right that not everyone wants to stay with their franchise. And thats part of my point. 

 

2- its STRICTLY about me not liking the situation Lou is putting himself and the players in term of negotiations. We can throw examples all day long that this and this and this happened or that this this and this could happen sometimes it turned out good and sometimes it didnt.

 

All i'd like from Lou is that he'd start talks earlier not to get a direct results but to be able to handle situations with all the inputs that he can get and make the right moves in order to calculate and minimize problems. He's not doing that.

 

 

Questions for you. Most are rhetorical, but answer if you want. I'm not attacking you either, so don't take it that way.

 

How do you KNOW that Lou is not negotiating right now? How do you know that nothing has been agreed to yet?

 

Let me give you an example this year. Loktionov. We've already heard from his agent and Lou himself that Loktionov is coming back. There's not been an official announcement. You know why? Because guys can't officially re-sign yet. I don't know the date (its before 7/5 and Triumph knows it haha). The only reason it got out is because Larionov mentioned it to Russian media. Lou doesn't say anything until things are official. The only reason Lou answered it is b/c Gulutti asked him and he didn't want to contradict Larionov. 

 

The fact is, we DONT KNOW what Lou is or isn't doing, b/c he doesnt make announcements until they're official. We also don't know the mindsets of these players. They could want to go to UFA to find out what they're worth. If I was Clarkson, there would be no way in hell I'd re-sign before 7/5 b/c the quality of the market is down and this is likely his only chance to make very big money (for his calibur of play). This is Lou's way. I'm used to it. I'd much rather our front office be more up front with us, but they're not. So be it. 

 

You've obviously been a fan of this team for a long time. Is it because we're not as good as we once were that it matters so much that we're not getting info? WE NEVER HAVE. Any information about this team before its announced 99.9% of the time comes out from the other side.

[ghdi]

I never stated that Toronto was not in the market on him where everyone assumed them to be dollar wise.. as you quoted and bolded my words (good job) i said that they MAY NOT not that they werent.... obviously what i was saying was based off of what i read and who wrote it.. jesus christ.. talk about over reading into something someone said on a forum board.. but go ahead if you want to be a douche im down for that.

 

Jesus christ. I wasn't attacking you. I was stating that I felt you misrepresented what the article was about. You stated "Toronto may not be". This blogger doesn't speak for the organization. It's one guy's opinion and nothing more. It's not based in fact, when your original quotes makes it sound like it came from the team. Get it? There's no need to be so defensive. So what if another blogger stated that he felt Clarkson was worth $6M per. Would that be "Toronto may be willing to spend the cashola"?  

[2ELIAS6]

Jesus christ. I wasn't attacking you. I was stating that I felt you misrepresented what the article was about. You stated "Toronto may not be". This blogger doesn't speak for the organization. It's one guy's opinion and nothing more. It's not based in fact, when your original quotes makes it sound like it came from the team. Get it? There's no need to be so defensive. So what if another blogger stated that he felt Clarkson was worth $6M per. Would that be "Toronto may be willing to spend the cashola"?

ok well whatever.. lets just put it to rest here. i feel bad for anyone else who has to read this.. were both devil fans here ... i agree to get along or attempt to if your down with it? and hopefully we hear some news soon on our ufa's

[ghdi]

ok well whatever.. lets just put it to rest here. i feel bad for anyone else who has to read this.. were both devil fans here ... i agree to get along or attempt to if your down with it? and hopefully we hear some news soon on our ufa's

 

I wasn't attempting to fight with you. I was only stating that I felt you misrepresented something and you escalated it. Its not a big deal. I interpreted what you said as coming from within the Leafs organization. The end.

 

fvck the Rangers.

[2ELIAS6]

fvck the rangers lol i like that. ... going kind of out to space here but theres not much to talk about anyway so why not.. was on cap geek browsing around and noticed that ryan carter who IMO is our best fourth line player.. will be a ufa after next season, as long as his play doesn't decline do you guys think he will be back? will it be an easy sign or is it projected that other teams would possibly have some interest in him... i know he's not a top guy by any means but i think when it comes to fourth line forwards he shines well.

[thelastonealive]

@RenLavoieRDS

 

 

Hearing that Flyers will use amnesty buyout for Daniel Brière. Flyers could wait another year to do the same with Ilya Bryzgalov. We'll see

[SterioDesign]

Questions for you. Most are rhetorical, but answer if you want. I'm not attacking you either, so don't take it that way.

 

How do you KNOW that Lou is not negotiating right now? How do you know that nothing has been agreed to yet?

 

Let me give you an example this year. Loktionov. We've already heard from his agent and Lou himself that Loktionov is coming back. There's not been an official announcement. You know why? Because guys can't officially re-sign yet. I don't know the date (its before 7/5 and Triumph knows it haha). The only reason it got out is because Larionov mentioned it to Russian media. Lou doesn't say anything until things are official. The only reason Lou answered it is b/c Gulutti asked him and he didn't want to contradict Larionov. 

 

The fact is, we DONT KNOW what Lou is or isn't doing, b/c he doesnt make announcements until they're official. We also don't know the mindsets of these players. They could want to go to UFA to find out what they're worth. If I was Clarkson, there would be no way in hell I'd re-sign before 7/5 b/c the quality of the market is down and this is likely his only chance to make very big money (for his calibur of play). This is Lou's way. I'm used to it. I'd much rather our front office be more up front with us, but they're not. So be it. 

 

You've obviously been a fan of this team for a long time. Is it because we're not as good as we once were that it matters so much that we're not getting info? WE NEVER HAVE. Any information about this team before its announced 99.9% of the time comes out from the other side.

 

no worries im not taking it as if youre attacking me and i swear im simply trying to make my point across cause honestly everyone seems to be missing it. and im really trying to keep this peaceful eventhough this is irritating anyone putting eyes on those posts.

 

nobody knows what Lou is doing now. But 1-2-3-4-5 weeks before free agency, there's no difference really other than he has more time to make things happen. Point is at that point it's too late for plan B.

 

What we do know (from reports and from people involved in different situations through the years and quotes taken from interviews and sh!t. Lou does not want to talk contracts during the season. He's secretive and all we all know that. But with Lou himself saying its that way and many many agents and players confirming it, im taking it for cash at this point. 

 

let me just put it this way. You have player X playing on our team, upcoming UFA. 

 

Scenario A: 

1- Lou / player X / agents begin their talks during the season to get a feel of the situation on both sides.

2- From there and knowing his intention/ demands on both sides. Lou has many moves he can make 

    a) if the player want to stay - decide if he's worth resigning now

    b) if the player want to stay - decide if its better not to risk injuries and wait after the season to re-evaluate the situation but at least things are established so less chances of bad surprises.

3- player is unsure of his future with the franchises for wtv reasons so its 50-50, so knowing that there's a bigger risk of losing the player Lou can play his cards the right way 

   a) he'd be more inclined to put him in a package or trade him at the trade deadline if the right deal is in place. So looking for the future while keeping the risks low.

   b) decide to go for it and keep him going all in for the run.

4- Player re-sign before or after free agency

5- Player doesnt resign and you lose him for nothing

 

Scenario B:

1- Lou has an exit meeting with player and get a feel of where they stand for the future. 

2- From there and knowing his intention/ demands on both sides. He decide if he want to keep the player or not.

   a) if he doesnt want to sign him or overpay or know he can't re-sign him - Waive him goodbye and look at him walk

   b) if he doesnt want to sign him or overpay or know he can't re-sign him - Try to get a late pick for him at the very least just to get something

   c) if he want to sign him well he's starting negociation resulting in - Player signing after or before testing the market

   c) if he want to sign him well he's starting negociation resulting in - Player refusing / testing the market / sign elsewhere

 

so thats my only point all along, and i mean its true. Lou is mostly always putting himself in Scenario B where his moves are really limited and his chances of getting the best of the situation are not the best. Thats ALLLLLL i've been saying for months folks. Im not saying Lou should resign all his players early or wtv but at least put himself in the best situation.

 

[MadDog2020]

The Phailures are hilarious. No defense, but they're looking to trade Coburn and their 11th pick for another forward. Rofl. http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-philadelphia-flyers/sources-flyers-interested-deal-ducks-ryan

[ghdi]

 

nobody knows what Lou is doing now. But 1-2-3-4-5 weeks before free agency, there's no difference really other than he has more time to make things happen. Point is at that point it's too late for plan B.

 

What we do know (from reports and from people involved in different situations through the years and quotes taken from interviews and sh!t. Lou does not want to talk contracts during the season. He's secretive and all we all know that. But with Lou himself saying its that way and many many agents and players confirming it, im taking it for cash at this point. 

 

 

I didnt want to quote you in full, but you don't seem to realize it's a two-way street. The player has to want to stay too and they're not going to be honest with the media if asked. Lou "broke the mold" with Zajac earlier this year. Did anyone expect that? Is it absolutely sure that Lou didnt approach Parise in early 2012 about re-signing, but his agents said "we're going to UFA"? It's not a far fetched thought. Zach knew he was going to be the biggest name on the market last year, just as Clarkson (and Elias) know that they will get plenty of attention this year.

 

I just don't believe we have enough information to put all the grievances you seem to have on Lou. The players are culpable as well and not everyone wants to stay in New Jersey, which historically, despite our success, is not a high profile place to play.

 

What would be your Plan B this year? Lets say the worst happens and we lose Elias, Zubrus, and Clarkson. If Plan B was Horton or Weiss and both decided to sign elsewhere for less money, would that be Lou's fault?

 

I agree that there's things that Lou has done (The 3Ms, the Salvador contract) that I shake my head or scoff at, but some of the things that seem to rattle you read to me like you're being petulant/impatient. At least wait til the worst happens before assuming it's going to. I believe Lou mostly does everything he can to keep a guy, but sometimes it's just not going to happen and we don't have all the reasons as to why not b/c they're not shared with us. I also do not take the word of an agent (espc) or player as concrete, regardless if its stated regularly as their egos and public image are more important than Lou's. Lou is not going to get in a pissing match with anyone.

 

The only thing I can say to you is WAIT. We don't know what Lou has been doing b/c this team doesn't make announcements until they're official. The fact that Loktionov has agreed gives me more than enough hope that there is hope. Again, for all we know, Lou has agreements in place with Elias and Clarkson right now and is waiting til it can be made official to announce it. We just don't do things like other teams and never have.

[Daniel]

Yeah, but they're trading for a pretty damned good forward.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Daniel

[Triumph]

I'm kinda done with this whole debate, but I will just say that pretty much no team does what Sterio is suggesting.  Seldom are players moved from playoff teams - the Sharks did it this year, and the Devils have done it a little bit in the past (Lyle Odelein thankfully got the boot in 2000) - the Sabres moved Campbell and Atlanta moved Kovalchuk while in the playoff race (but on the outside) - regardless, for the most part, playoff teams hold on to their guys.  I have no desire to follow a team that's always trying to pile up assets for tomorrow at the expense of today.

The Phailures are hilarious. No defense, but they're looking to trade Coburn and their 11th pick for another forward. Rofl. http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-philadelphia-flyers/sources-flyers-interested-deal-ducks-ryan

 

I mean, they can't spend any more money on their D.  They've got more committed to it than just about anyone.  Schenn, Grossmann, Coburn, Timonen, Streit, and Meszaros all make in excess of $3M.

[CarpathianForest]

I like Coburn

[sundstrom]

sorry i'm late and the thread moved away from this, but i wanted to comment on the parise posts:

 

 For all we do know, Lou went to Zach earlier in the season and was turned down because Zach and his agents knew what UFA meant.

 

He did.

 

I actually think Parise wanted to stay with the Devils but the Wild just gave him an offer he couldn't refuse. I don't remember where I read this but I remember reading that the Devils offered Parise 7 years 50mill during his RFA summer but he turned it down since his agents felt like he could get more on the open market.

 

 

 

i mentioned it as i heard it from a reliable source - but it wasn't during the RFA summer. it was during his last season. he was going to take it but his agents convinced him to wait because he could only do better and if he wanted to take it from NJ at the end of the season, it would certainly be there.

 

Parise had no intention of remaining a Devil. He was conspiring to land with Suter the Cooter on the same team during the 11-12 season.

 

this is not true - he had the suter idea as a possibility and the truth is he thought it was maybe 20% that it could happen. if suter decided on nashville or detroit, parise would have very likely re-signed with NJ for an $80MM deal or something around there.

[SterioDesign]

I'm kinda done with this whole debate, but I will just say that pretty much no team does what Sterio is suggesting.  Seldom are players moved from playoff teams - the Sharks did it this year, and the Devils have done it a little bit in the past (Lyle Odelein thankfully got the boot in 2000) - the Sabres moved Campbell and Atlanta moved Kovalchuk while in the playoff race (but on the outside) - regardless, for the most part, playoff teams hold on to their guys.  I have no desire to follow a team that's always trying to pile up assets for tomorrow at the expense of today.

Look at what Shero will do with letang now that he apparently want too much. You watch the return he'll get instead of running letang to his last day and see him walk.

[Triumph]

Look at what Shero will do with letang now that he apparently want too much. You watch the return he'll get instead of running letang to his last day and see him walk.

 

Sure, and look how good Pittsburgh's going to be next year.  They were a 50% FenTied team this year, now they'll lose arguably their best D, they already lost their shutdown center last year.  They're a good shooting team but can't expect to duplicate those results in 2012-13 - they'll be a playoff team, certainly, but best in their division?  Certainly would make it a horse race.

 

They made 3 trades to supposedly get better this year (of course, they got worse as a result, but GM of the year Shero sure knwos when to go for it) - why did they trade away Jordan Staal if this was the year to make a run?

[njd3b1ink]

The Pittsburgh examples are terrible. Shero did a sh!t job with all his trades. And if they want another shot this year then they won't trade Letang. If they do then it will be great for the Devils. Letang is the best Dman on a weak defensive team with bad goaltending. I would love for them to get even weaker.

Edit: and I don't consider what Shero did to "win now" moves. That was what he was trying to accomplish but he got slow players in positions that they didnt need to improve in. Jokinen was the best trade. The other three were trash.

Edited June 19, 2013 by njd3b1ink

[DJ Eco]

The Pittsburgh examples are terrible. Shero did a sh!t job with all his trades. And if they want another shot this year then they won't trade Letang. If they do then it will be great for the Devils. Letang is the best Dman on a weak defensive team with bad goaltending. I would love for them to get even weaker.

Edit: and I don't consider what Shero did to "win now" moves. That was what he was trying to accomplish but he got slow players in positions that they didnt need to improve in. Jokinen was the best trade. The other three were trash.

 

 

I agree 100%. I wonder if the Devils might have made the playoffs if we could've picked up Jokinen... My guess is yes.

[Devil Dan 56]

I agree 100%. I wonder if the Devils might have made the playoffs if we could've picked up Jokinen... My guess is yes.

 

The Devils missed the playoffs by 7 points. One guy wasn't going to bridge that gap.

[Derlique]

The Devils missed the playoffs by 7 points. One guy wasn't going to bridge that gap.

Kovalchuk?

[Triumph]

Kovalchuk?

 

Absolutely not - Kovalchuk probably isn't worth 7 points over a whole 82 game season unless he's crushing at shootouts again.  The only player who could be worth in a shortened season that would be a goalie.

[Derlique]

Absolutely not - Kovalchuk probably isn't worth 7 points over a whole 82 game season unless he's crushing at shootouts again. The only player who could be worth in a shortened season that would be a goalie.

I was being half serious but think of how many 2-1 games the Devils lost. Not like he was tearing it up but you can't deny having Kovy would at least make it interesting. It's funny, NJ actually played really well this year, just no puck luck