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Zubie#8

Sabres Leafs Brawl - Clarkson Leaves the Bench

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While I agree that Scott isn't the best fighter, being nearly a foot taller than your opponent is a giant advantage.

 

Lecavalier got stuck fighting Chara, he lost, and he lived.   If Kessel had a problem, switch wings.   It's a preseason game.    Seems to me everyone on the ice wanted a circus and they got just what they wanted.

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The argument being made is that goons are wasting a spot on the roster. This is why the NHL is moving toward the Barches of the league. And again I think it will gravitate toward guys like Clarkson, Simmonds, Prust,etc. Of course, as long as the big heavyweight exist, then this throws a wrench in downsizing fighters.

Again, its real simple, if there wasn't a need for these guys then they wouldn't be found all through the league. How do you measure events that never happen?

And yes, Clarkson made a huge mistake coming off the bench. I would say it is nearly as stupid as anyone ever thinking he is a top 6 forward.

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max you're usually one of the smarter posters but that's really off the mark.  Scott's 6'8 270, Kessel's 6' 202.  One hit and Kessel's in never-never land.  And Scott may not be a 'good' fighter but it ain't like Kessel fights at all.

 

He's huge and he's a sh!tty fighter.    Just hug him or don't line up with him or hope your coach isn't a moron.   Two handing him ain't making the situation any better and then nudging him after it's over and he's tied up makes him look like a punk.   So basically he wanted it but didn't really want it.

The argument being made is that goons are wasting a spot on the roster. This is why the NHL is moving toward the Barches of the league. And again I think it will gravitate toward guys like Clarkson, Simmonds, Prust,etc. Of course, as long as the big heavyweight exist, then this throws a wrench in downsizing fighters.

Again, its real simple, if there wasn't a need for these guys then they wouldn't be found all through the league. How do you measure events that never happen?

And yes, Clarkson made a huge mistake coming off the bench. I would say it is nearly as stupid as anyone ever thinking he is a top 6 forward.

 

That's what he's paid to do.    No one pays that money for "enforcement", you can get those for 500K

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The argument being made is that goons are wasting a spot on the roster. This is why the NHL is moving toward the Barches of the league. And again I think it will gravitate toward guys like Clarkson, Simmonds, Prust,etc. Of course, as long as the big heavyweight exist, then this throws a wrench in downsizing fighters.

Again, its real simple, if there wasn't a need for these guys then they wouldn't be found all through the league. How do you measure events that never happen?

And yes, Clarkson made a huge mistake coming off the bench. I would say it is nearly as stupid as anyone ever thinking he is a top 6 forward.

 

The people who are GMs and coaches by and large played when enforcers were thought to be necessary.  Is there a coach in the league whose playing career started post-instigator rule?  I don't think so.  Bench clearing brawls are over with.  There's cameras at every game and the league is much more stringent about suspensions - if you look at suspensions 25 years ago, they're a complete joke.

 

The idea behind an enforcer is that if the other team starts anything, there's a guy who is willing to take on anyone on the other team and can beat him or at least hold his own.  This is simply not true of people like Simmonds and Clarkson and Prust - they're not big enough to fight heavyweight players.

 

Most teams employ an enforcer but plenty do not and there does not seem to be a difference between the two.

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No, but as the league transitions to 4 lines of skill, maybe even opting to keep around a shootout specialist over a goon, you will see the Clarksons of the league handle the fighting. Also, by the time the cap goes up, 5m is not going to be a lot of money. I guarantee Clarkson doesn't end up in the top 6 unless there are numerous injuries.

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You guys all keep repeating Clarkson over and over but we have a few on our team still. Carter, Bernier, Salvador, Zidlicky, maybe Olesz aren't afraid to show a mean streak. We all saw at least Carter and Salvador drop some people last year, Salvador in the home opener.

 

All about the hybrid, I agree.. Having someone out there who's  ONLY good (or decent) at fighting is a waste of a roster spot, and will go the way of the dinosaur by 2016.

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No, but as the league transitions to 4 lines of skill, maybe even opting to keep around a shootout specialist over a goon, you will see the Clarksons of the league handle the fighting. Also, by the time the cap goes up, 5m is not going to be a lot of money. I guarantee Clarkson doesn't end up in the top 6 unless there are numerous injuries.

 

Again - these people cannot fight guys like Lucic, or the bigger defensemen around the league - they will get pummeled.  Granted, goons don't fight these people anyway, but on the rare occasion it happens, that's why GM's justify the inclusion of these players.

 

Believe what you want regarding Clarkson.  Clarkson is going to play with either Kadri or Bozak when he gets back and he'll definitely be playing on the power play.  They didn't sign him for all that money to have Nikolai Kulemin take his spot at even strength.  He'll play 16-17 minutes a night.

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Maybe I am not making myself clear. You will always have guys to drop the mitts. As the bottom 6 roster spots become more valuable, you will see the fighters transition to the guys like Clarkson. As I mentioned before, this transition is difficult when you have true goons in the league, as now it resembles an arms race. So teams have opted to either carry the goon or a try the best of both worlds by employing a more skilled fighter. We have 2 examples in NJ, Barch and Carter. I think Carter is a perfect example, as he can play and scrap. Of course we all know we aren't talking Probert style fighting, but I think this is the fighter of the future. In fact I feel bad for Ryan's knuckles this season as I expect a rise in his fighting majors.

Urbom dropped them tonight. The guys know there is a need and I would't be surprised if Stevens didn't send him out there to see what he had, which wasn't much.

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Lots of idiocy on the ice for that one.  My listing of idiots in descending order:

 

1- Kessel - the worst of the lot.  Using a stick in the way he did is unforgivable to me.  He is intending to injure.  There is no defense for those actions. 

2- Clarkson- leaving the bench is also a dangerous play  It may force retaliation from the other bench and then a complete melee and the refs lose control.  He deserves every bit of that suspension.

3- Scott- I don't know what led up to that point but you aren't going to impress a coaching staff with your goon-attributes if you take on someone like Kessel.  At least find a somewhat equal target if you want to be a goon.

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Maybe I am not making myself clear. You will always have guys to drop the mitts. As the bottom 6 roster spots become more valuable, you will see the fighters transition to the guys like Clarkson. As I mentioned before, this transition is difficult when you have true goons in the league, as now it resembles an arms race. So teams have opted to either carry the goon or a try the best of both worlds by employing a more skilled fighter. We have 2 examples in NJ, Barch and Carter. I think Carter is a perfect example, as he can play and scrap. Of course we all know we aren't talking Probert style fighting, but I think this is the fighter of the future. In fact I feel bad for Ryan's knuckles this season as I expect a rise in his fighting majors.

Urbom dropped them tonight. The guys know there is a need and I would't be surprised if Stevens didn't send him out there to see what he had, which wasn't much.

 

Won't happen.  The Devils have drafted 2 goons (Thomson, Bernard) and converted another player to being a goon (Young) in the last 5 drafts.  That's just the Devils - plenty of other teams still value this sort of player, look at how many dumb fights there are during the preseason.  And since these guys have no skill to begin with, they can play until they're 35 or 36 provided they don't get punch drunk.

 

And again, only an idiot team wants Clarkson fighting a lot - he's a valuable player, players can get hurt in fights, and there's no need to lose him for 5 minutes to a needless fight.  He'll still definitely fight, but I don't think he'll be in the top 20 in fighting majors.

 

DeBoer thinks that the game is changing towards playing goons who can play, but he's just not correct about this - it's really really hard for big players to be any good at hockey, but that big arms race is going to continue.  As someone on Twitter pointed out, there's probably too many skaters allowed to dress for NHL games - it's not hard to dress a guy for 5 minutes and hide the rest of his minutes with your other 11 forwards.

 

Urbom dropped them because this is how someone proves they are willing to make the team - by getting into a worthless fight where he got pummeled.  It's meatheadedness at its finest - it will take lawyers to get it out of the game completely.  I'm not against fighting but that fight last night, the idea that a guy has to fight to prove something about his hockey playing ability - yeah, I'm against that.

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Lecavalier got stuck fighting Chara, he lost, and he lived.   If Kessel had a problem, switch wings.   It's a preseason game.    Seems to me everyone on the ice wanted a circus and they got just what they wanted.

He got lucky or Chara didn't want to kill Lecavalier. Only way that works out. Scott could just hold Kessel at bay at repeatedly punch him in the face. When you have that much of a height advantage, you also have a reach advantage. Yes, you can try to hug and stay close, but all it takes is one well placed punch and Kessel is unconscious, on the ice, useless for the next 4-6 weeks. Not worth it if you're Kessel.

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Somehow the NHL fined Ron Rolston for "player selection and team conduct." I don't really think it's right to fine a coach who didn't have last change and there was 10 minutes left in the game. If anyone should have been fined it should have been Randy Carlyle for having a player leave his bench.

Also crazy is that Phil Kessel is only going to miss 3 preseason games. He should've at least missed a regular season game for his cheap shots.

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This happens once in a blue moon.  This brawl was apparently triggered when two guys fighting for NHL spots decided to fight.  The Sabres didn't like how that fight went so they sent out their goon.

 

 

We hardly ever see real fights.  Teams don't want players like Clarkson risking their necks in actual fights - the better Clarkson has gotten, the less he's been fighting.  Until the NHL continues the charade of maintaining fighting despite it mostly being a sideshow, we'll see events like last night's.

 

Exactly. Rolston overreacted to Tropp getting dropped by Devane. I had a post on it over at New York Puck if anyone's interested. Kessel did what most stars do or have we forgotten what a punk Crosby is post whistle and Malkin? Scott is a scrub who doesn't belong in hockey. The blame goes to Rolston. He wants to change the Sabres' image. But you don't send Scott after their best player. That's bush league. Another issue I have with fights is when a player delivers a clean hit. Why should there be retribution? Hitting is still part of hockey. There is a tendency for today's players to overreact. There isn't any respect anymore. The amount of cheap shots we're seeing in meaningless exhibitions is garbage. And they never penalize these guys enough. Five games here while Clarkson gets 10 for being an idiot. Where's the consistency? If players kept their sticks down, much of what we see wouldn't exist. It'd be a much cleaner game. I'm fed up with it. Brawls like this one have no place in the game. It's preseason. That should be about competition and team chemistry.

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Well, that didn't take long. I was reading the paper yesterday and already on the front of the sports page of the Toronto Sun it had a picture of Clarkson with a caption that read ; " Dumb move, David". Should I start a scrapbook or post pictures for you guys to see the hellfire David will endure here in Toronto?

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Has Clarkson actually said anything?  I haven't seen any quotes from him.  Just curious as to what he possibly could've been thinking.

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Well, that didn't take long. I was reading the paper yesterday and already on the front of the sports page of the Toronto Sun it had a picture of Clarkson with a caption that read ; " Dumb move, David". Should I start a scrapbook or post pictures for you guys to see the hellfire David will endure here in Toronto?

 Well, a Clarkson post of gaffs would be the way to go -- except I have a feeling we'll lose interest fast. 

 

I'm already kind of sick of him.  He looked so tiny too!  As much as I like him I'm pretty glad we didn't keep him and turn into that kind of a team -- where a guy like Clarkson is top paid pretty much for his charming comic relief the majority of the time, you know?  Charm and endearing qualities turn pathetic so fast if you can't back it all up on ice, you know?

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Has Clarkson actually said anything?  I haven't seen any quotes from him.  Just curious as to what he possibly could've been thinking.

 

There is an article on tsn.ca

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=432683

 

"I think I sometimes make decisions with my heart, not my head," Clarkson said. "I saw a teammate that I felt was in trouble, and my reaction was to help. You can have many different opinions, but that was my mind-set going in. I was just going there to go to help and settle things down. That was the intent."

 

"It's like if you have a little brother and you feel like he's in trouble or you feel like there's a situation you can get out and help," Clarkson said. "That was the feeling I had in my belly. I had feeling to do something, and I've got to pay the consequences for it. That was the feeling, it was to go out and to try and help or to calm down a situation and now I'll serve my 10 games and come back better for it."

 

The part that sucks is that I'm missing these games," he said. "But at the same time I think defending teammates is something that's just in me. It's what I've done my whole life and I think that the 10 games thing obviously is tough to swallow, but when there's rules out there in place, you've got to abide by them."

 

I'll say sorry to the fans or anybody who's disappointed, but I was going out there and what I felt like (was) my teammates in here are first to me," Clarkson said. "That's what's gotten me to where I am in my career, that's why I believe I'm here. I think that's just the person I am. If anyone was in trouble in here, I would try to go to help and that was what I did."

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Dear lord man -- YOU can't say you have a heart of gold -- only others get to. 

 

See -- already he's sounded like he's making charming excuses to his wife for getting drunk and coming home at --  well, after practice the following day "I wasn't cheating Honey - I was over at Marty's and, and I knew you didn't want me driving drunk.  I'm so sorry for drinking so much -- Boy am I sorry now though!  But I knew I had to just stop and take care of myself for you and our baby, honey.  You now, I'm a real jerk for not calling - hey dont be mad at Marty - he didn't realize or I know he would have called you for me  :blahblah: "  you just end up thinking "My ASS. Here's a shovel just keeeep talking you miserable suckup lying cheating fvckhead"

Edited by Pepperkorn

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I'm usually not one to over-judge players when they make in-the-moment mistakes (the way so much of the seemingly "we're always perfect" media does), but what Clarkson did was just so flat-out DUMB...especially when he knows the rule.  I didn't see anything going on during that brawl that should make a player say, "fvck the 10 games, I gotta get out there, it's life or death!"  PK's take on it is actually pretty accurate...don't try to justify stupidity by twisting it into a "I do dumb things that my hurt my team because I'm actually a super-swell guy, I really am."

 

That being said, though I was curious to hear what he had to say, I don't think there's anything that he could have said that would've had me thinking, "Well, guess what he did was OK after all."

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Unless Scott had Kessel pinned to the ice and was beating his face in, Clarkson had no business trying to save the day like "a big brother".

I think Kessel's a sad little wimp, mind you, but he's a grown man and can take care of himself. Not in a fight, per say, but, as he showed by trying to hack Scott's ankles, there are ways of avoiding injury.

If the Leafs win less than 5 of their first 10 games, you can bet Clarkson will be feeling the heat.

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How long until they realize that was a horrible contract for David and they buy him out so he can come running back to NJ

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I don't know why everyone is giving Clarkson such a hard time...  get over it, he's not in NJ anymore. Let the man be.

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