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Daniel

Larsson

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I don't understand why you can use players as examples, but no one is allowed to point out that those examples make no damn sense.

 

It's not making "no damn sense". Player A came in the league with a certain skills who made him the player he is today.

 

Name me one current Dman that one of his strength/skill was not there at all when he got in the league. Other than experience and stuff like that.

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well well... just as i made a point pretty clear not to focus on what i said about that one guy and just take the general meaning of what i said... guess who comes out and do exactly what i said not to do... *clap clap*

 

You're not understanding what you're doing rhetorically.  When you compare someone to P.K. Subban, you are creating a false dichotomy - either a player's as good as P.K. Subban, which, great, awesome, or he isn't.  Now you've put Adam Larsson into the 'isn't as good as P.K. Subban' category.  The problem with your argument is that the 'not as good as P.K. Subban' category includes just about every defenseman in the NHL, besides Doughty, Karlsson, Chara, Letang, Weber, Ekman-Larsson and a few others I am forgetting here.  It is not a problem if Adam Larsson doesn't become that good, nor is it a wasted pick, and Daniel, who can't evaluate breakout passes and calls Larsson a 'bust' both on here and on twitter, isn't really saying anything of substance.  There are guys who play big minutes in the NHL who aren't as good as those guys, but who are still pretty darn good and worth having on a team.

Edited by Triumph

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Look, you basically invited it by using that example. You can't provide the most lopsided example ever by using someone who has been playing fantastically and then say well, he's not better than the best, so he blows.

 

Never said he blows and I really dont think Subban is the best Dman in the league i'd put quite a few dmen ahead of him

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un-fvcking-real... just when i say "don't nitpick the player i'm using cause there's no perfect comparison" thats all you guys do. 

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well well... just as i made a point pretty clear not to focus on what i said about that one guy and just take the general meaning of what i said... guess who comes out and do exactly what i said not to do... *clap clap*

 

Ever think that maybe you're just really REALLY bad at trying to make points re: most things Devils?  It always the same with you...you try to make a point in the worst way possible (usually with extreme over-the-top examples, like what you just did), people dare to pick your statements apart, then it's everyone else's fault for not understanding what you're trying to go for.      

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un-fvcking-real... just when i say "don't nitpick the player i'm using cause there's no perfect comparison" thats all you guys do. 

 

Write better.  Your point is that 'Adam Larsson doesn't look like an elite defenseman'.  No one is really disagreeing with that right now.  The question is, does that mean he's going to be a horrible player?  No - he might be quite a good player even so.

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un-fvcking-real... just when i say "don't nitpick the player i'm using cause there's no perfect comparison" thats all you guys do. 

 

Maybe you should not use players as examples if no one else is allowed to point out that they don't work. You seem to have a select mold of what you think a defenseman should be. It seems to be all or nothing with you. If you have a point to make, why don't you just make it without all the rules of how people are allowed to respond?

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Write better.  Your point is that 'Adam Larsson doesn't look like an elite defenseman'.  No one is really disagreeing with that right now.  The question is, does that mean he's going to be a horrible player?  No - he might be quite a good player even so.

 

READ BETTER! thats not even my point jesus christ. Not even close.

 

Name me one very good defence that his major skills/strength was not there when he got in the league and suddenly became his bread and butter. THAT'S what i meant. 

 

Whats so damn hard to understand? Larsson right now is NOT fast, NOT a leader kind of guy, NOT really aggressive, DOESNT have a canon or precise shot, DON'T show any passion.

 

Now those are the "stock" skills that could help you and that you have it or you don't. You don't get any of those out of the blues or after 5-6 years in the league. Guys who have those skills had them before coming in the league.

 

Now his passing, vision, hockey IQ is something that could get better with experience and THATS the only thing we can bank on and hope for. 

 

So whats so damn hard to understand when we're saying that it's hard to see him becoming a top dman when he's lacking in those skills that IMO you really need and that it's not something you can improve "that much".

 

Top and complete players are players with quite a few of those skills an if they lack one, the other over average skills are usually compensating for it.

Edited by SterioDesign

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 It is not a problem if Adam Larsson doesn't become that good, nor is it a wasted pick, and Daniel, who can't evaluate breakout passes and calls Larsson a 'bust' both on here and on twitter, isn't really saying anything of substance.

 

I think I made it clear that "bust" was an unfair description on my part.  And on twitter, I asked Pronman if he thought Larsson could be called a bust.  He said no, but there was reason to be concerned.

 

Re the breakout passes, if you would like to show me lots of examples of breakout passes that Larsson has made during his Devils tenure that a decently skilled defenseman can't make with some degree of regularity, then fine.  Thus far, I've seen the highlights from the WJC, which don't tell anyone all that much.  And again, if that's all he does particularly well, it's a bit of a disappointment, is all.  A player we hoped would anchor the defense for the foreseeable future ought to have more to his game.

 

Bottom line, I've asked countless times for people to tell me exactly what Larsson does or what he has in his toolbox that supports the hype he's gotten.  All I've gotten in response are "breakout passes" and "he's only 20". 

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READ BETTER! thats not even my point jesus christ. Not even close.

 

Name me one very good defence that his major skills/strength was not there when he got in the league and suddenly became his bread and butter. THAT'S what i meant. 

 

Sure thing.  Sheldon Souray scored 23 goals in 152 WHL games.  He followed that up with 9 goals in his first 4 pro seasons.  He's scored 102 NHL goals since then.  I don't think anyone associated with the Devils ever suspected that he would become a PP1 option with his shot.

 

Zdeno Chara scored 3 goals in his first WHL season.  He scored 4 goals in his first pro season.  It took him until his Y23 season to score a significant number of points, and he, like Souray, has been a PP1 option for a decade.

Edited by Triumph

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I think I made it clear that "bust" was an unfair description on my part.  And on twitter, I asked Pronman if he thought Larsson could be called a bust.  He said no, but there was reason to be concerned.

 

Re the breakout passes, if you would like to show me lots of examples of breakout passes that Larsson has made during his Devils tenure that a decently skilled defenseman can't make with some degree of regularity, then fine.  Thus far, I've seen the highlights from the WJC, which don't tell anyone all that much.  And again, if that's all he does particularly well, it's a bit of a disappointment, is all.  A player we hoped would anchor the defense for the foreseeable future ought to have more to his game.

 

Bottom line, I've asked countless times for people to tell me exactly what Larsson does or what he has in his toolbox that supports the hype he's gotten.  All I've gotten in response are "breakout passes" and "he's only 20". 

 

Jesus, you and Sterio should start a club.  Who gives a flying fvck about his WJC results now?  I didn't care about them in 2011.  You are the only one who has brought that up, like that video has somehow superceded the 100+ games we've seen him play.

 

Who is hyping Larsson here?  Other than people who don't understand aging curves/stats in other pro leagues.  

 

Larsson has a hard shot, but a slow release.  If his release gets better, he'll be quite a good shooter.  Still, a defenseman's shot isn't usually what makes up a lot of his value.  He has confident vision in the offensive zone - he can find sticks with passes, not just blindly bang the puck towards the net.  His speed is not a strength, but when he learns how to read the play better it won't be such a weakness.  He can be physical sometimes, though that's not going to be his game all the time.  I still expect him to be a 25 minute all situations type of defenseman who is strong in the corners, kills penalties, and plays the PP2 (or PP1 if that aspect is weak for the Devils), with around 30 points a season and who drives play slightly.  He's not going to dominate games.  One of the critical parts of his game is that when he fully matures, he should have no real weaknesses in his game.

Edited by Triumph

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well well... just as i made a point pretty clear not to focus on what i said about that one guy and just take the general meaning of what i said... guess who comes out and do exactly what i said not to do... *clap clap*

 

Man, you really are the Dennis Wideman-penalty-shot of rhetoric and arguing.

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Sure thing.  Sheldon Souray scored 23 goals in 152 WHL games.  He followed that up with 9 goals in his first 4 pro seasons.  He's scored 102 NHL goals since then.  I don't think anyone associated with the Devils ever suspected that he would become a PP1 option with his shot.

 

Zdeno Chara scored 3 goals in his first WHL season.  He scored 4 goals in his first pro season.  It took him until his Y23 season to score a significant number of points, and he, like Souray, has been a PP1 option for a decade.

 

yeah and how often does that happen? My Subban example was apparently bad why is those 2 good examples now taken out of the bunch who stayed the same? also, is Chara "top quality" is his production? i certainly don't think so. Thats not what makes him the great dman he is, its certainly a good extra but thats not his bread and butter

Man, you really are the Dennis Wideman-penalty-shot of rhetoric and arguing.

 

from a bunch of homers / kool-aid drinkers point of view... oh sure im sure it does look that way man

Edited by SterioDesign

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yeah and how often does that happen? My Subban example was apparently bad why is those 2 good examples now taken out of the bunch who stayed the same? also, is Chara "top quality" is his production? i certainly don't think so. Thats not what makes him the great dman he is, its certainly a good extra but thats not his bread and butter

 

from a bunch of homers / kool-aid drinkers point of view... oh sure im sure it does look that way man

You're kidding me now, right? You use 1 example and everyone must take it as is, but Tri gives you two and it's bs? He provided the examples because you asked for them.

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Jesus, you and Sterio should start a club. Who gives a flying fvck about his WJC results now? I didn't care about them in 2011. You are the only one who has brought that up, like that video has somehow superceded the 100+ games we've seen him play.

Who is hyping Larsson here? Other than people who don't understand aging curves/stats in other pro leagues.

Larsson has a hard shot, but a slow release. If his release gets better, he'll be quite a good shooter. Still, a defenseman's shot isn't usually what makes up a lot of his value. He has confident vision in the offensive zone - he can find sticks with passes, not just blindly bang the puck towards the net. His speed is not a strength, but when he learns how to read the play better it won't be such a weakness. He can be physical sometimes, though that's not going to be his game all the time. I still expect him to be a 25 minute all situations type of defenseman who is strong in the corners, kills penalties, and plays the PP2 (or PP1 if that aspect is weak for the Devils), with around 30 points a season and who drives play slightly. He's not going to dominate games. One of the critical parts of his game is that when he fully matures, he should have no real weaknesses in his game.

Jeebus, I mentioned the WJC as the only example of something positive that I saw, and said it doesn't matter all that much.

The hype I've heard is that he was the top rated defenseman at the draft, and that some had him as the best player in what at the time was thought to be a decent draft, albeit not spectacular draft. That's a player you're expecting to be a little better than a solid defenseman that doesn't dominate games, which btw it isn't the end of the world if that's what he is.

As to the projections specifically, he gets pushed around in the corners and along the boards, and shows quite a bit of panic. Plus, it seems things are getting worse. Maybe that's a DeBoer issue, maybe just a bump in the road. But it doesn't create a ton of optimism.

Edited by Daniel

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yeah and how often does that happen? My Subban example was apparently bad why is those 2 good examples now taken out of the bunch who stayed the same? also, is Chara "top quality" is his production? i certainly don't think so. Thats not what makes him the great dman he is, its certainly a good extra but thats not his bread and butter

 

 

 

You said

 

 

Name me one very good defence that his major skills/strength was not there when he got in the league and suddenly became his bread and butter. THAT'S what i meant.

 

 

Tri named two. Now you're complaining that those examples don't count? Is there a rule book for your ever changing argument?

 

As Tri said:

 

 

Larsson has a hard shot, but a slow release.  If his release gets better, he'll be quite a good shooter.  Still, a defenseman's shot isn't usually what makes up a lot of his value.  He has confident vision in the offensive zone - he can find sticks with passes, not just blindly bang the puck towards the net.  His speed is not a strength, but when he learns how to read the play better it won't be such a weakness.  He can be physical sometimes, though that's not going to be his game all the time.  I still expect him to be a 25 minute all situations type of defenseman who is strong in the corners, kills penalties, and plays the PP2 (or PP1 if that aspect is weak for the Devils), with around 30 points a season and who drives play slightly.  He's not going to dominate games.  One of the critical parts of his game is that when he fully matures, he should have no real weaknesses in his game.

 

That's what Larsson should bring when he's fully developed. Just because those aren't the highlight reel skills you want doesn't make them useless.

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The other thing is that Larsson has played 2 years and he is still the 13th youngest defenseman playing in the NHL right now.

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The other thing is that Larsson has played 2 years and he is still the 13th youngest defenseman playing in the NHL right now.

 

He's been in the league half a season less than Ryan McDonagh and his draft year was 4 years later. He's not Doughty but he'll get better

Edited by DH26

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Really?!?!?!

 

Guy hasnt even won a Vezina.

 

You have to be an exceptionally good Golatender with the hardwear to show for it to get into the HOF.

 

Luongo will be in the HOF.  Mark my words.  Is he a lock?  No.  But he's one of the best goalies to ever play.  But this is a Larsson thread, not a Luongo thread.

 

I hope he was being sarcastic lol...

 

Nope.

 

Luongo is an HOF level goaltender, sorry guys.  He's 4th all time in save percentage, he'll probably be top 10 in wins when it's over.  He hasn't won a Vezina by sheer chance - he had a better season than Brodeur two of the times Brodeur took the award.  

 

It's deeply ironic that I am the one that has to tell you this but:  Watch the games.  Outlet passing isn't a random skill that players either exhibit or don't - it's the ability to find the stick of your man as he's moving around the ice.  It's a difficult thing to do - a lot of defensemen never really master it.  Larsson came into the league and he was able to do it like a veteran - he makes his share of mistakes doing it still, but those will diminish in time.  This should be a skill that jumps out at you when watching hockey.  How it translates into performance is more difficult to pin down, but Larsson hasn't been a significant territorial drag despite his other limitations, so I suspect it's his passing skill that's kept him afloat.

 

As for Larsson's physicality, that will increase once his speed does.  He won't be a guy that's throwing huge hits left and right but that's of dubious value anyway.  He can definitely catch people unaware at the blueline from time to time.

 

I disagree with the first statement.  Brodeur deserved it the Vezina in both 04 and 07.  I'm no homer either.

 

I agree completely with your Larsson analysis though.  He's coming along albeit slowly.

 

He's been in the league half a season less than Ryan McDonagh and his draft year was 4 years later. He's not Doughty but he'll get better

 

I think people need to realize that defensemen take a lot longer to develop than forwards.  Guys like Karlsson and Subban are more flashy than they are effective.  No knock on either player.  Both PK and Erik are great players.  Larsson just doesn't have the offensive skill those two have so it looks like Larsson isn't as good.  The truth is, Larsson's game will never impress you.

 

He's never going to be fast.  But he's a pretty mobile guy.

He's never going to be physical.  But he's certainly not afraid of contact.

He's never gonna be a dangler.  But he's still pretty good with the puck.

Edited by Mike Brown

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If he turns out to be someone like Ladislav Smid with a little more offense is that really that awful or disappointing? He was another high pick, more defensive defenseman (without the outlet passing ability) and Smid took forever to turn into something decent

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If he turns out to be someone like Ladislav Smid with a little more offense is that really that awful or disappointing? He was another high pick, more defensive defenseman (without the outlet passing ability) and Smid took forever to turn into something decent

 

I could live with that.  Yea it would be disappointing if he didn't become great, but it wouldn't be a bad thing if he took the same route Victor Hedman is taking.

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I could live with that.  Yea it would be disappointing if he didn't become great, but it wouldn't be a bad thing if he took the same route Victor Hedman is taking.

Hedman had 20 points over 44 games last year. If he turns out anything like Hedman (someone I think is one of the best defensemen in the NHL right now), I'll still think he's a steal at 4th overall.

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Hedman had 20 points over 44 games last year. If he turns out anything like Hedman (someone I think is one of the best defensemen in the NHL right now), I'll still think he's a steal at 4th overall.

 

Coincidentally, Hedman is another one people called a bust at 19 and 20. 

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Hedman had 20 points over 44 games last year. If he turns out anything like Hedman (someone I think is one of the best defensemen in the NHL right now), I'll still think he's a steal at 4th overall.

 

Yea he's been quietly improving every year.

 

Coincidentally, Hedman is another one people called a bust at 19 and 20. 

 

People still think he's a bust.

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People still think he's a bust.

 

People don't pay attention and people are often quite stupid.

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