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devilsrule33

2013-2014 Lineup/Roster Thread

1,544 posts in this topic

Playing one of the best goalies for 60 games instead of 40 would make no difference to you? It's all about giving you a better chance to win and when you can play CS instead of unarguably one of the bottom 5 worst goalies in the league is a huge difference. We probably have as big a difference between good and bad goalie as anyone in the league

 

I don't know what difference it would have made. All I know is that playing the better goalie (Schneider) hasn't guaranteed us winning games this season anymore than playing Marty.

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I may be wrong but I don't think anyone talks solely about wins and losses as to why Marty played a lot. It was just about going with the hot hand. The Devils were struggling, whoever the team happened to win with was going to get the next game. Cory has still played more games btw. When Cory wasn't winning he didn't play as much because Marty was playing well. Most people believe Cory should play more though, as do I.

 

As far as the team making it a priority to play Brodeur as many games as possible I don't see how that's true at all. It's nonsense imo. Marty didn't play for what? Six games after Yankee Stadium. When Cory wasn't getting the job done we switched over.

 

The complaining over the Marty situation has just gone out of control. Marty playing 40 games has nothing to do with the Devils not making the playoffs. Who knows what would have happened had he started the games that Marty lost (or won even). This team has only allowed 187 goals, that's 11th in the NHL and perfectly sufficient to make the playoffs. But the team has only scored 175 goals. If they had scored 195 then we'd probably be in the playoffs right now.

 

The decision was very easy to go with Cory for an extended stretch after Brodeur's game aaginst the Rangers. For one, it was almost a bit embarrassing for Deboer. He went all sentimental and gave Marty a shot coming off of Schneider winning two straight games and playing exceptional in both (56 saves on 58 shots), and that was after a (37/38) loss to Colorado. Brodeur had been coming off a loss in a very poor game against the Coyotes. But just like the example that you quoted of me in your post, we had to switch the script, and give Brodeur a start because it is Brodeur. He got owned, so the obvious choice was to continue to ride Schneider.

 

All year, there have been different rules for Brodeur and Cory. Simple as that. No one is saying for sure if the Devils would be a playoff team if Cory got 60 games and Brodeur got 22, but there is a very good chance (almost guaranteed) they would be a lot better off.

Edited by devilsrule33

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I don't know what difference it would have made. All I know is that playing the better goalie (Schneider) hasn't guaranteed us winning games this season anymore than playing Marty.

 

ask yourself this - how many games has cory been the reason for the loss - i mean really the reason? you know - the devils score 3+ goals and cory lets in some week ones and doesn't play well? I can think of the recent Florida game. That's it.

 

off the top of my head, i have the islanders game early in the season, the edmonton game on the road, and the columbus game on the road where brodeur was the sole reason the devils did not come away with two points - and that's just off the top of my head.

 

this team was on the razor's edge of making the playoffs to begin with - to do it, they couldn't sabotage themselves and lots had to go right. They have the best PK in the league. They have a top five PP (unfortunately they don't get enough chances to go on it). They have CS who is a top 5 goaltender in the league. so what went wrong? shootouts (i'll say they gave up 4 extra points because of them) and marty (gave away 8-10 points). shootouts - can't do anything about it. perhaps i'll fault pdb very very little because he never let zidlicky go even though he proved in practice to be good at it but whatever. but marty played in games he should not have played in. he should have gotten 30 games max this year and they should have been against lesser teams.

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Montreal back in December where Schneider let in that weak goal late - Devils lost in OT there.  That's another one.

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If you look at the year so far it's gone like this:

 

October:

 

Cory started 6 games. He went 1-3-2 with a .915 save pct.

Marty started 6 games. He went 2-2-2 with an .879 save pct.

 

Cory probably should have taken over at this point but towards the end of the month he lost 5 straight games, breaking well under .900 for that stretch. He had the opportunity but things didn't click.

 

Nov.

 

Cory started 6 games. He went 3-2-1 with a .941 save pct. 

Marty started 9 games and went 5-4-0 with a .932 save pct

 

 

Both are in the same boat but Marty had a stretch of 5 straight wins with a .952 save pct. and 2 straight shutouts. He was the hotter hand.

 

Dec.

 

Cory started 6 games and went 1-3-2 with an .892 save pct.

Marty started 8 games and went 5-2-1 with a .902 save pct.

 

At this point Cory hasn't won the job outright at all. Not only that but Marty has another stretch of 9 points earned out of 10 with probably like a .940

Meanwhile Cory has a stretch a 5 straight losses (2 in OT) and in 4 of those games he is under .875 (the other one he is .900)

 

NO reason to give him the sole starting job at this point

 

Jan.

 

Marty is horrible in January. I mean BAD. He starts 5 games and posts a 1-3-1 record with an .862 save pct.

So right so we lean on Cory who starts 10 games and posts a 5-2-3 record with a .942 save pct

 

So this month Cory has clearly been better than Marty and he gets twice the starts.

 

Feb. 

 

Again Marty has been terrible and he plays NO games.

Cory goes 2-1-1 with a .932 save pct.

 

Seems fair to me. Deboer is happy to name Cory the full starter but then Cory completely screws up...

 

Mar. 

 

Cory goes 2-3-0 with an .836 save pct. At one point he doesn't cross .895 for 5 straight games (with a 3 game stretch in their of .803).

Marty goes 4-3-0 with a .913 save pct.

 

Hell, Marty probably should get the net at this point. Nonetheless the season has been totally fair. In your guys' fervent hate of Marty you can't see that. When Marty was bad he didn't play, when he was good he alternated with Cory. When Cory was abysmal he got a few more starts.

 

Saying something like "How many losses can you name that were actually Cory's fault" is a ridiculous statement that displays a a reach to find anything to make Cory look out to be the one who has been wronged. Not only has Cory deservedly lost the position of sole starter fairly but he has still started more games than Marty. Cory was just losing games at one point and when Marty played we one, if you are DeBoer you have to make a move there.

 

Again, despite all the straw man, I don't think Marty is better than Cory but am not opposed to him starting half the games at this point after everything has gone the way it has.

 

By the way, in losses this year, Cory has an .894 save percentage. Clearly he is partially responsible just as Marty is for his losses.

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Not to give you work, but what are Marty and Corey's save percentage in wins and losses? Just want to put the last Corey number in context, since I think that number may actually be decent when we are only looking at losses.

Edited by Devils731

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.949 for Cory

.894

 

.930 for Marty

.875 losses

 

I was making the point that Cory's is higher in losses though but still not high enough to have him escape blame.

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.949 for Cory

.894

 

.930 for Marty

.875 losses

 

I was making the point that Cory's is higher in losses though but still not high enough to have him escape blame.

 

That's only because in his last 3 losses his SV% has been very low.  Before that, Schneider's SV% in losses was equal to Brodeur's SV% in all games.  Which just about says it all right there.

 

The point is, these two never should've been on an equal footing.  Brodeur's been bad for 3 years.  Schneider's been great.  Brodeur has been given all the leash in the world and while he's had some good starts lately we know that's a mirage because we have seen the last 3 years - he's not a good goalie, and Schneider is, period, end of story.

Edited by Triumph

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That's only because in his last 3 losses his SV% has been very low.  Before that, Schneider's SV% in losses was equal to Brodeur's SV% in all games.  Which just about says it all right there.

 

The point is, these two never should've been on an equal footing.  Brodeur's been bad for 3 years.  Schneider's been great.  Brodeur has been given all the leash in the world and while he's had some good starts lately we know that's a mirage because we have seen the last 3 years - he's not a good goalie, and Schneider is, period, end of story.

 

The point, is that as I've laid out, the alternating between the goalies has been justified. The rules never favored Marty or gave special treatment to him. Even if you say he's been given "all the leash in the world" the numbers throughout the year do not point to that as seen above. Cory has not been 'great' in any regard aside from a few periods throughout the year. DeBoer clearly realizes this and has chosen his starting goalie accordingly.  Saying that "Brodeur is bad and Cory is good" proves nothing and really isn't a true simplification. Especially lately.

 

If Marty signs a deal with the Devils this summer and Cory doesn't get one, then I'll begin to get nervous. Then again, if Cory isn't consistent for a good stretch to the end of the season, I don't know that I want to rush into signing him to a long-term deal. As pointed out though, he will possibly be cheaper in this scenario but not by much.

 

 

EDIT: btw I found this stat interesting, per TG:

 

The Devils improved to 6-1-0 this season when dressing seven defensemen. 
Edited by Neb00rs

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The point, is that as I've laid out, the alternating between the goalies has been justified. The rules never favored Marty or gave special treatment to him. Even if you say he's been given "all the leash in the world" the numbers throughout the year do not point to that as seen above. Cory has not been 'great' in any regard aside from a few periods throughout the year. DeBoer clearly realizes this and has chosen his starting goalie accordingly.  Saying that "Brodeur is bad and Cory is good" proves nothing and really isn't a true simplification. Especially lately.

 

Your point is wrong.  You have separated things by months.  Is this how coaches make their decisions?   

 

The rules have absolutely given special treatment to Brodeur, because he has ended up with as many games as Schneider, despite being considerably worse.

 

 

The fact that you think your logic proves that Brodeur should get the net now says it all.  Look at the last 150 games - who is the better goalie, the guy who is posting one of the best SV% of all time or the guy who is posting below average save percentages?  The Devils couldn't win a game for Schneider, Brodeur complained about his playing time, and that's why the Devils are as far out of the race as they are.  The fact that Brodeur is going to end up with 40 games this year is criminal.

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The problem is that Marty has won 17 games and gotten 38 total points in 35 starts and Cory has won 14 and gotten 37 points in 38 games. It doesn't make sense and it's what screwed up Cory getting the games he should have been getting.

 

The other issue is that whenever Cory had a chance to run away with the job, he'd falter, Marty would falter slightly less, and we'd be at square one again. Hopefully next year this is no longer an issue, and Cory gets the 60 or so games he should be playing with his numbers. Without the recent slide, he's been one of the best in the league.

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The problem is that Marty has won 17 games and gotten 38 total points in 35 starts and Cory has won 14 and gotten 37 points in 38 games. It doesn't make sense and it's what screwed up Cory getting the games he should have been getting.

 

The other issue is that whenever Cory had a chance to run away with the job, he'd falter, Marty would falter slightly less, and we'd be at square one again. Hopefully next year this is no longer an issue, and Cory gets the 60 or so games he should be playing with his numbers. Without the recent slide, he's been one of the best in the league.

 

Well, there is also the issue of how often does Cory need to prove himself.  Schneider had a stretch of 14 of 15 games or whatever of not giving up more than 2 goals. That's pretty sensational. He stumpled a bit, but what goalie hasn't? Imagine if every NHL starter's good play was reset after a few poor games. Pick any starter and I'll show you a number of bad games in close proximity to one another. 

 

I'll go with Rask since many think he is a top 3 goalie in the NHL. 

 

Dec 28th: 3 goals on 12 shots. Pulled after 1

Dec 31st: 5 goals on 31 shots. 

Jan 4th: 1 goal on 37 shots

Jan 7th: 5 goals on 20 shots

Jan 9th: 3 goals on 18 shots. Pulled early in the 2nd.

 

He gets the start two days later and has a 26 save shutout.

 

If Cory Schneider had to prove that he wa sbetter than Martin Brodeur continuously all season, he has passed that test easily. Why he has to continuously prove it is a mystery to everyone around the NHL but people in the Devils organization. 

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Why he has to continuously prove it is a mystery to everyone around the NHL but people in the Devils organization. 

 

That's what I didn't get...Schneider got the "Weeeeeeeeell, I don't know..." rookie treatment, while Brodeur got the old faithful "go-to guy" treatment.  I could understand that mentality 3-4 years ago, but def not now.  Part of why I don't want Marty to come back is that I don't trust PDB (if he's back) not to give him the same status next season.   

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If you look at the year so far it's gone like this:

 

October:

 

Cory started 6 games. He went 1-3-2 with a .915 save pct.

Marty started 6 games. He went 2-2-2 with an .879 save pct.

 

Cory probably should have taken over at this point but towards the end of the month he lost 5 straight games, breaking well under .900 for that stretch. He had the opportunity but things didn't click.

 

Nov.

 

Cory started 6 games. He went 3-2-1 with a .941 save pct. 

Marty started 9 games and went 5-4-0 with a .932 save pct

 

 

Both are in the same boat but Marty had a stretch of 5 straight wins with a .952 save pct. and 2 straight shutouts. He was the hotter hand.

 

You're essentially doing the same thing the Devils did this year...valuing wins over the goaltender's actual play in net.  The only month Cory was clearly worse than Marty was in December, after he'd been jerked around toward the end of November.  And after Cory's dominant January and February they started splitting games again before Cory really started spitting the bit.  He never had a chance to get back into a groove with them giving Marty the Isles and Detroit games to pacify him and as an in case he was traded.

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Your point is wrong.  You have separated things by months.  Is this how coaches make their decisions?   

 

The rules have absolutely given special treatment to Brodeur, because he has ended up with as many games as Schneider, despite being considerably worse.

 

 

The fact that you think your logic proves that Brodeur should get the net now says it all.  Look at the last 150 games - who is the better goalie, the guy who is posting one of the best SV% of all time or the guy who is posting below average save percentages?  The Devils couldn't win a game for Schneider, Brodeur complained about his playing time, and that's why the Devils are as far out of the race as they are.  The fact that Brodeur is going to end up with 40 games this year is criminal.

 

I think you misunderstood my post. I AM saying that because of what has happened lately, it's not that big of a deal to me that Marty is starting - and I think DeBoer has been fair. Additionally, Cory has been abysmal for stretches, so I don't know why you are kissing his feet. I separated things by months just to lay out a summary of the season as best I could (you should be able to understand that), and demonstrate how both goalies have had pretty equal ups and downs with Cory really dropping the ball when he could have taken over. I also pointed out in that post a couple of streaks that ran cross month - this isn't relevant now except to show how your picking on the 'month' thing is plain ignorant of what was written.

 

The other issue is that whenever Cory had a chance to run away with the job, he'd falter, Marty would falter slightly less, and we'd be at square one again. Hopefully next year this is no longer an issue, and Cory gets the 60 or so games he should be playing with his numbers. Without the recent slide, he's been one of the best in the league.

 

This is in large part, what I've been saying.

 

Well, there is also the issue of how often does Cory need to prove himself.  Schneider had a stretch of 14 of 15 games or whatever of not giving up more than 2 goals. That's pretty sensational. He stumpled a bit, but what goalie hasn't? Imagine if every NHL starter's good play was reset after a few poor games. Pick any starter and I'll show you a number of bad games in close proximity to one another. 

 

I'll go with Rask since many think he is a top 3 goalie in the NHL. 

 

Dec 28th: 3 goals on 12 shots. Pulled after 1

Dec 31st: 5 goals on 31 shots. 

Jan 4th: 1 goal on 37 shots

Jan 7th: 5 goals on 20 shots

Jan 9th: 3 goals on 18 shots. Pulled early in the 2nd.

 

He gets the start two days later and has a 26 save shutout.

 

If Cory Schneider had to prove that he wa sbetter than Martin Brodeur continuously all season, he has passed that test easily. Why he has to continuously prove it is a mystery to everyone around the NHL but people in the Devils organization. 

 

He doesn't need to prove himself. He just needs to really not completely fvck things up. Which he did, for extended stretches of the season. He has played more than a few poor games this season. Still, that doesn't change the fact that when he's been good, he has been real good.

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Well, there is also the issue of how often does Cory need to prove himself.  Schneider had a stretch of 14 of 15 games or whatever of not giving up more than 2 goals. That's pretty sensational. He stumpled a bit, but what goalie hasn't? Imagine if every NHL starter's good play was reset after a few poor games. Pick any starter and I'll show you a number of bad games in close proximity to one another. 

 

I'll go with Rask since many think he is a top 3 goalie in the NHL. 

 

Dec 28th: 3 goals on 12 shots. Pulled after 1

Dec 31st: 5 goals on 31 shots. 

Jan 4th: 1 goal on 37 shots

Jan 7th: 5 goals on 20 shots

Jan 9th: 3 goals on 18 shots. Pulled early in the 2nd.

 

He gets the start two days later and has a 26 save shutout.

 

If Cory Schneider had to prove that he wa sbetter than Martin Brodeur continuously all season, he has passed that test easily. Why he has to continuously prove it is a mystery to everyone around the NHL but people in the Devils organization. 

 

I didn't say I agree with it because I don't. I said at the beginning of the year there needed to be a transition period but by mid-season, Cory absolutely needed to be the guy. And he was. He played 10 of 15 games in January and all 4 in February. If not for his rough March, he'd most likely still be starting at least 3 of every 4.

 

Unfortunately, Deboer looks at wins and "situations" instead of save percentage. The Devils won't be in the playoffs, so I'd like to see Schneider in 8 of the final 10, but I think it'll be more like 5 each.

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I didn't say I agree with it because I don't. I said at the beginning of the year there needed to be a transition period but by mid-season, Cory absolutely needed to be the guy. And he was. He played 10 of 15 games in January and all 4 in February. If not for his rough March, he'd most likely still be starting at least 3 of every 4.

 

Unfortunately, Deboer looks at wins and "situations" instead of save percentage. The Devils won't be in the playoffs, so I'd like to see Schneider in 8 of the final 10, but I think it'll be more like 5 each.

 

This is why I brought up the topic again here because Schneider has won the last 2 while Brodeur has lost the last 3, but was very good in his last outing. So, if Brodeur does get the next game, it will be a shift in decision making for Pete.

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This is why I brought up the topic again here because Schneider has won the last 2 while Brodeur has lost the last 3, but was very good in his last outing. So, if Brodeur does get the next game, it will be a shift in decision making for Pete.

 

It's not though.  We saw it in November when Brodeur asked to start against Winnipeg and then lost, then promptly got the next game.  So we know the 'rules', whatever they are, are different for different players.

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This is why I brought up the topic again here because Schneider has won the last 2 while Brodeur has lost the last 3, but was very good in his last outing. So, if Brodeur does get the next game, it will be a shift in decision making for Pete.

 

It hasn't been just about wins, but wins have been a large part of it. However, DeBoer has recognized throughout the season who the hot hand is. However, when one goalie completely blew up or had an extended losing streak he would make a change. It's a very simple system and I don't see where all these extrapolations are coming from. 

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It's not though.  We saw it in November when Brodeur asked to start against Winnipeg and then lost, then promptly got the next game.  So we know the 'rules', whatever they are, are different for different players.

 

You know, in all my posts talking about the goalie situation crazyness of the coaching decisions, I totally forgot...

 

 

We had a conversation with him,” DeBoer said. “He had no effects from it. He feels good and wanted the game, so that was good enough for me.” - See more at: http://blogs.northjersey.com/blogs/fireice/2013/11/P20/#sthash.Vqhp242K.dpuf

 

But I did remember the situation of Brodeur starting for 3 losses in a row after Schneider's sensational game against the Kings and Cory calling it "groundhog day" I guess it has been different all year for Brodeur and Cory.

 

What a brutal quote by Pete. If Cory wasn't already steaming, I bet that quote set him off.

Edited by devilsrule33

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You know, in all my posts talking about the goalie situation crazyness of the coaching decisions, I totally forgot...

 

 

But I did remember the situation of Brodeur starting for 3 losses in a row after Schneider's sensational game against the Kings and Cory calling it "groundhog day" I guess it has been different all year for Brodeur and Cory.

 

What a brutal quote by Pete. If Cory wasn't already steaming, I bet that quote set him off.

 

Oh please, this is desperate and you're way too excited over something that doesn't really mean much at all. Firstly, this hardly demonstrates "asking for the game" as much as it does confirming that he's not injured. Secondly,  Marty and Cory didn't have much different save pcts. at that point - the difference is that Cory was coming off 2 wins in 10 games and Marty was recently coming off 7 wins in 8. Marty had a .948 save percentage in his previous 8 games going into Winnipeg.  For the record, Cory had a .936 in his previous 8. Aside from all that (and I'm sure you'll bypass all these facts) it was Cory's first month or so on the team and Marty still retained a right make starts.

 

You guys can high five each other all you want, but your argument is growing weaker. You make the provocative claim the 'Marty gets a different set of rules'. So then I wait for proof of any sort, I even dig through the season myself but only find that the opposite is true. Jan/Feb debunks your whole theory (aside from all the other things that make it wrong such as the part above). This is such a desperate reach it's comical, no offense. Like, this is your evidence of Marty favoritism. Geez, I'd hate to see what you would call actual Marty favoritism. You actually picked an example that is not only unclear but actually might prove against your point.

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Oh please, this is desperate and you're way too excited over something that doesn't really mean much at all. Firstly, this hardly demonstrates "asking for the game" as much as it does confirming that he's not injured. Secondly,  Marty and Cory didn't have much different save pcts. at that point - the difference is that Cory was coming off 2 wins in 10 games and Marty was recently coming off 7 wins in 8. Marty had a .948 save percentage in his previous 8 games going into Winnipeg.  For the record, Cory had a .936 in his previous 8. Aside from all that (and I'm sure you'll bypass all these facts) it was Cory's first month or so on the team and Marty still retained a right make starts.

 

You guys can high five each other all you want, but your argument is growing weaker. You make the provocative claim the 'Marty gets a different set of rules'. So then I wait for proof of any sort, I even dig through the season myself but only find that the opposite is true. Jan/Feb debunks your whole theory (aside from all the other things that make it wrong such as the part above). This is such a desperate reach it's comical, no offense. Like, this is your evidence of Marty favoritism. Geez, I'd hate to see what you would call actual Marty favoritism. You actually picked an example that is not only unclear but actually might prove against your point.

 

What save percentage did Schneider have in the 95 games before that and what was Brodeur's?  The problem is that Schneider and Brodeur were treated as equals coming into the season.  That would be fine if we had no idea about these two players and they'd never played hockey before.  They have and we did know.  Saying they are treated as equals is the mistake because they are not equals - Schneider is significantly better.  

 

Brodeur has different rules no question - show me where Cory got 3 straight losses to play around with.  Brodeur was kept in games so he could play in the outdoor game, which he promptly vomited up, and DeBoer realized what was going on and finally benched him for a month.  He's been better in these last few games here, which is great, because not only do we need him for the playoff push, but we need him to leave and so someone has to be fooled into thinking he's good enough to play 30-40 games for them next year.

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What save percentage did Schneider have in the 95 games before that and what was Brodeur's?  The problem is that Schneider and Brodeur were treated as equals coming into the season.  That would be fine if we had no idea about these two players and they'd never played hockey before.  They have and we did know.  Saying they are treated as equals is the mistake because they are not equals - Schneider is significantly better.  

 

Brodeur has different rules no question - show me where Cory got 3 straight losses to play around with.  Brodeur was kept in games so he could play in the outdoor game, which he promptly vomited up, and DeBoer realized what was going on and finally benched him for a month.  He's been better in these last few games here, which is great, because not only do we need him for the playoff push, but we need him to leave and so someone has to be fooled into thinking he's good enough to play 30-40 games for them next year.

*High Five*

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I want to throw an idea out there...

 

I am a pro-Cory guy by the way, but for the sake of argument.

 

Yes, Cory's save percentage is much better than MARty's over the same time period. No question. However, we do NOT know how Cory's play might change when he's given the #1 job. He's never been a true number 1, with a little more pressure on Luongo and Brodeur than him in both places. It's different.

 

Cory's still the guy, but we don't know how Cory will stand up to 60-65 games until next season.

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I want to throw an idea out there...

I am a pro-Cory guy by the way, but for the sake of argument.

Yes, Cory's save percentage is much better than MARty's over the same time period. No question. However, we do NOT know how Cory's play might change when he's given the #1 job. He's never been a true number 1, with a little more pressure on Luongo and Brodeur than him in both places. It's different.

Cory's still the guy, but we don't know how Cory will stand up to 60-65 games until next season.

Which is exactly why it was vital to give him 50+ this season. Cause either you're signing him long term with a huge question mark, or he gets to FA.

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