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devilsrule33

Update: Odjick and Parker Battling Effects of Concussions

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These fighters were overall physical players as well. If you're really interested in getting rid of all head injuries, then put great gazoo helmets on everybody and ban hitting. Ban all on ice contact. Fighting is such a small part of it, plus it's extremely popular with the paying customer. The NHL right now is mired in another dead puck era, do you really want to take more entertainment out of the game?

 

How about sticks to the head, pucks to the head (more prevalent now with the idiotic shot blocking culture that we see) how about for years guys who got their skulls mashed into seamless glass at arenas.

 

I'm sorry that you're throwing a fit, but it's obvious that reducing or eliminating fighting would reduce concussions.  It would not make head injuries go away, but no one is arguing that.  

 

One issue that seems obvious from what Parker is saying is that fighters know they are replaceable so they hide their injuries, which no doubt makes things worse.

Edited by Triumph

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Great article on George Parros by ESPN. His incident on opening night re-opened the fighting debate in hockey.

 

 

Moments pass. With assistance, Parros stumbles to his knees. But his eyes are still closed, and his head wobbles, then he slips back toward the ice, like a drunk on a barroom floor. Medical personnel roll him onto his back, and it's then that he opens his eyes and comes to and sees the ceiling of the Bell Centre, its banners and steel grids and lights.

Parros feels a dull panic. He knows something happened, but he's not sure what. He is carried away on a stretcher and catches sight of his worried wife, Tiffany, as medical staff load him into an ambulance. He feels the panic again. In this moment, he is not worried that he has suffered a serious head injury. He is not worried about the blood on his face. He is not worrying about when he might play again. He is worried that Orr knocked him out, a tough guy's greatest indignity. Tiffany grew up in a hockey family -- they met when her brother, Josh, played in juniors with Parros -- and she seems to know what's on her husband's mind. So she reassures him. "You didn't get knocked out!" she says.

As the ambulance moves, Parros is relieved.

 

And just some interesting things about the life of a fighter that don't have to do with the debate and health.

 

 

He has his own tough-guy methodology, a science of its own, and as he explains it over beers, it's sensible enough to almost make you believe it will work. Parros fights primarily to protect teammates. He fights to pump up his team and to calm it down. Parros usually fights on his first shift if he's outsized -- if, for instance, he's facing Buffalo's John Scott, a 6'8" missile. Parros fights after he misses a goal, as penance, and after he scores, striving for the Gordie Howe hat trick -- a goal, an assist and a fight. And Parros sometimes fights as a favor to other fighters. As Scott says, "In one of my first fights, my team was down three goals in the third. I said to George, 'You wanna go?' George said, 'Not really. But you'll owe me one.' Now anytime he wants to fight me, I will."

But the reasons Parros doesn't fight are more essential to his long-term health. For one, he doesn't fight if he's angry; that would lead him to take wild swings and leave his body exposed. For another, he doesn't fight because he needs to, as if satisfying a barbaric urge. "If I didn't have to fight, I wouldn't," he says. "If I could score goals for a living, I would. It's a lot more fun, and I'd make a lot more money."

 

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/10074206/george-parros-fighting-goon-fight

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I'm sorry that you're throwing a fit, but it's obvious that reducing or eliminating fighting would reduce concussions.  It would not make head injuries go away, but no one is arguing that.  

 

One issue that seems obvious from what Parker is saying is that fighters know they are replaceable so they hide their injuries, which no doubt makes things worse.

 

It would, but it would also reduce fans. So the NHL can go ahead with this at their own peril. 

 

Hitting, clean and dirty...probably results in 95% of the concussions we see. Why aren't the crybabies going after hitting? Because they've always had an anti fighting agenda, because this segment of the game offends them in some way and they feel it's too prehistoric or uncouth or something. Well it doesn't offend most of us...

Edited by '7'

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It would, but it would also reduce fans. So the NHL can go ahead with this at their own peril.

do you really think there is a significant contingent of fans who would turn away if fighting is done away with? I understand there are traditionalists but I think if there is a slow process of eliminating it, I don't see many people just getting up and walking away from the sport because it's phased out.

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It would, but it would also reduce fans. So the NHL can go ahead with this at their own peril. 

 

Hitting, clean and dirty...probably results in 95% of the concussions we see. Why aren't the crybabies going after hitting? Because they've always had an anti fighting agenda, because this segment of the game offends them in some way and they feel it's too prehistoric or uncouth or something. Well it doesn't offend most of us...

 

There's a small segment that would miss the dancing bears enough to tune out.  Fights overall would be missed more.  Still, fighting is down and revenues are up.  Thing is that fighting is just growing less and less relevant - it's being eaten from the lower levels up, and more guys come from leagues where it's not allowed. 

 

The NHL is certainly trying to limit hits to the head, and body checking will certainly be curtailed by rules changes in the next 10-15 years.  

Edited by Triumph

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It would, but it would also reduce fans. So the NHL can go ahead with this at their own peril. 

 

Hitting, clean and dirty...probably results in 95% of the concussions we see. Why aren't the crybabies going after hitting? Because they've always had an anti fighting agenda, because this segment of the game offends them in some way and they feel it's too prehistoric or uncouth or something. Well it doesn't offend most of us...

C'mon, it's absolutely ridiculous to equate fighting and hitting in the game of hockey. Fighting doesn't occur during the actual game, the game is literally stopped for the fight. Hitting occurs in the game, during the flow of play and can have an effect on the outcome. I really doubt fights truly effect the other aspects of the game in a meaningful way.

And this is coming from someone who doesn't mind the occasional fight.

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There's a small segment that would miss the dancing bears enough to tune out.  Fights overall would be missed more.  Still, fighting is down and revenues are up.  Thing is that fighting is just growing less and less relevant - it's being eaten from the lower levels up, and more guys come from leagues where it's not allowed. 

 

The NHL is certainly trying to limit hits to the head, and body checking will certainly be curtailed by rules changes in the next 10-15 years.  

 

Are revenues up? If you truly want to take the temperature of the league, look at the 3 lockouts in 18 years, the constant ownership turmoil, the fiascos in Ottawa, Buffalo, NYI, NJ, NYI again, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, NYI yet again, look at the empty seats in Detroit and Phoenix who has been on the NHL ventilator for 4 years already.

 

UFC and pro wrestling are now killing the NHL in ratings, and basketball has blown passed it since the days they were on level footing in the early 90's.

 

The NHL only stands to lose by eliminating fighting. They will gain nothing out of it

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Are revenues up? If you truly want to take the temperature of the league, look at the 3 lockouts in 18 years, the constant ownership turmoil, the fiascos in Ottawa, Buffalo, NYI, NJ, NYI again, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, NYI yet again, look at the empty seats in Detroit and Phoenix who has been on the NHL ventilator for 4 years already.

Right, because this has anything to do with fighting. Let's just list random problems and  say it's relevant. I used to be in favor of fighting. Now I'm much less so. Especially considering fighters seem to have a dispropotionally high amount of serious brain injuries after their careers, despite playing FEWER minutes. While all the stuff you listed has an effect on head injuries, if that was the main reason, fighters would have the same amount of long term effets, or fewer. Right now, the evidence doesn't bear that out. I'll miss fighting, but it doesn't seem to be worth the cost. And if I'm a crybaby for giving a sh!t about another human being, sorry. Id just as soon not root for a gladiatorial game.

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I guess what gets lost in this, especially if we're talking about goons in the last fifteen years, is that they've been paid a ton of money for it. I would imagine that Cam Jannsen, John Scott, Andrew Peters, and all the rest are millionaires by the time they're in their late 20s early 30s. No one wants to admit it, but most of the world would accept the long term effects from concussions as opposed to the daily grind of a $50k a year job the average joe winds up with.

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Are revenues up? If you truly want to take the temperature of the league, look at the 3 lockouts in 18 years, the constant ownership turmoil, the fiascos in Ottawa, Buffalo, NYI, NJ, NYI again, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, NYI yet again, look at the empty seats in Detroit and Phoenix who has been on the NHL ventilator for 4 years already.

 

UFC and pro wrestling are now killing the NHL in ratings, and basketball has blown passed it since the days they were on level footing in the early 90's.

 

The NHL only stands to lose by eliminating fighting. They will gain nothing out of it

 

Yes, revenues are up - they just signed an enormous new TV deal in Canada.  Basketball and hockey were never on equal footing.

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I guess what gets lost in this, especially if we're talking about goons in the last fifteen years, is that they've been paid a ton of money for it. I would imagine that Cam Jannsen, John Scott, Andrew Peters, and all the rest are millionaires by the time they're in their late 20s early 30s. No one wants to admit it, but most of the world would accept the long term effects from concussions as opposed to the daily grind of a $50k a year job the average joe winds up with.

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I actually made the opposite point in a previous post... The goons and fighters who incur the worst physical beatings are paid much less than the skill guys who the league tries to protect.

And I sure hope they have good insurance policies because they may be millionaires but that's all going to medical costs without it...

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I actually made the opposite point in a previous post... The goons and fighters who incur the worst physical beatings are paid much less than the skill guys who the league tries to protect.

And I sure hope they have good insurance policies because they may be millionaires but that's all going to medical costs without it...

Not to make light of it, but the out of pocket medical expenses don't come close to that. That's why the big time plaintiffs attorneys don't get wealthy recovering out of pocket medical expenses for their clients.

If you gave any goon that played in the NHL in the past 15 years the truth serum with a disclosure form that had graphic details of what could happen because of concussions, they would sign on the dotted line without hesitation. I know I would.

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Boy I'm sure that Prust-Janssen fight really has fans flocking to the league in drives lol. Waste of 3 mins of my life.

Edited by dmann422

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Boy I'm sure that Prust-Janssen fight really has fans flocking to the league in drives lol. Waste of 3 mins of my life.

I've avoided this thread like the plague because I know where it'll lead.. But this is a ridiculous example. Prust stood up for a young teammate that got run by a goon.. It wasn't the most entertaining fight but it certainly wasn't staged.

And my only input: if you're going to ban fighting, you might as well ban shot blocking, slapshots, and open ice hitting. Because all lead to concussions, and we'll eventually get to that point someday at this rate.

It's a contact sport, and they're paid hundreds of thousands or even millions to exchange punches. This stuff is tragic, but, in my mind, it's a workplace hazard. You know the risk when you sign that dotted line. Maybe all blue collar retirees should sue former employers for injuries experienced on the job?

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It's a contact sport, and they're paid hundreds of thousands or even millions to exchange punches. This stuff is tragic, but, in my mind, it's a workplace hazard. You know the risk when you sign that dotted line. Maybe all blue collar retirees should sue former employers for injuries experienced on the job?

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And I appreciate that. Especially since the NHL, unlike the NFL doesn't seem to have made any of the risks a secret. These guys are grown ups, willingly taking risks. However, as the Olympics have proved, hockey is just as great without fighting, and with larger rinks, both things that could cut down on TBI. I'm not advocating for larger rinks -- it would be a logistical nightmare for one thing -- but we could live without fighting. Fighting goes away in the playoffs. Does that make playoff games less entertaining? Do casual fans stop watching in the playoffs because there's no fighting? I'm not saying we can't have a contact sport, but at this point, the cost of fighting outweighs the benefits, imho.

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If you gave any goon that played in the NHL in the past 15 years the truth serum with a disclosure form that had graphic details of what could happen because of concussions, they would sign on the dotted line without hesitation. I know I would.

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Which is why it may be time for the union or the league to step in. Not to get paternalistic, but there are a ton of 40, 50 year olds with serious health problems who I am sure would rather have made different decisions, and would have signed up when they were younger, even after hearing the risks. We tend to think we're invincible, until we're not, so nobody's going to convince a guy not to make the NHL if he has a chance, even if the risk is terrible.

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Question. Why do these days say stuff when their are suits. Yet when this isn't a conflict they never say anything before hand? And. Another.

Why back then no helmets or nothing and less injuries. Yes the game is faster now but when your practically naked compared to today's game and there is by far less injuries in sports in general wth? Football rule changes haven't made huge differences at all. Same here.

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Question. Why do these days say stuff when their are suits. Yet when this isn't a conflict they never say anything before hand? And. Another.Why back then no helmets or nothing and less injuries. Yes the game is faster now but when your practically naked compared to today's game and there is by far less injuries in sports in general wth? Football rule changes haven't made huge differences at all. Same here.

Concussions are caused by the brain hitting the skull, so helmets don't necessarily prevent them, because if the head changes direction fast enough, the brain still hits the skull. Helmets prevent a lot of other types of head injury, but when players are stronger and faster, that does cause impact to be that much harder. Most rule changes can't solve this. I don't deny that a lot of guys are probably speaking up for opportunistic reasons, but there are plenty of guys who have issues who don't speak up (just look at the suicides among NHL and NFL players), and even if some of this is motivated by greed, that doesn't make the complaints any less true. As far as the NHL is concerned, I don't totally side with the players suing -- they had a much better idea what they were getting into than the NFL guys did, since the NHL doesn't seem to have gone as far to convince them they were safe, but I do think the league should be doing what it can to make things safer without fundamentally changing the sport, and I think removing fighting is an easy fix.

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Thanks. It seems they say they wanna do what's best for the league and dont make the changes that are needed most. Same with football. Qbs are over protected(different store) head hits,causes players to hit low. That's a whole other relm of dangerous injuries. Consistency with penalities on boarding etc is really needed in these situations but it doesn't happen either. The pads for hockey make half of the injuries. Go back to the old pads. That would be better IMO.

Concussions are caused by the brain hitting the skull, so helmets don't necessarily prevent them, because if the head changes direction fast enough, the brain still hits the skull. Helmets prevent a lot of other types of head injury, but when players are stronger and faster, that does cause impact to be that much harder. Most rule changes can't solve this. I don't deny that a lot of guys are probably speaking up for opportunistic reasons, but there are plenty of guys who have issues who don't speak up (just look at the suicides among NHL and NFL players), and even if some of this is motivated by greed, that doesn't make the complaints any less true. As far as the NHL is concerned, I don't totally side with the players suing -- they had a much better idea what they were getting into than the NFL guys did, since the NHL doesn't seem to have gone as far to convince them they were safe, but I do think the league should be doing what it can to make things safer without fundamentally changing the sport, and I think removing fighting is an easy fix.

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I've avoided this thread like the plague because I know where it'll lead.. But this is a ridiculous example. Prust stood up for a young teammate that got run by a goon.. It wasn't the most entertaining fight but it certainly wasn't staged.

And my only input: if you're going to ban fighting, you might as well ban shot blocking, slapshots, and open ice hitting. Because all lead to concussions, and we'll eventually get to that point someday at this rate.

It's a contact sport, and they're paid hundreds of thousands or even millions to exchange punches. This stuff is tragic, but, in my mind, it's a workplace hazard. You know the risk when you sign that dotted line. Maybe all blue collar retirees should sue former employers for injuries experienced on the job?

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I never said the fight was staged just that it was boring, specifically in response to 7's argument that some fans will go away if fighting is banned.

I have no problem with a teammate sticking up for another player, but let's be honest- the majority of fights these days are draws and not that entertaining. It's not like we're getting UFC quality matches out there.

And fighting is an action that stops the play and flow of a game, it's entirely different from shot blocking, slapshots and hitting, which directly contribute to a team trying to win. As mouse said, fighting largely disappears in the playoffs and I don't hear anyone complain about it.

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I never said the fight was staged just that it was boring, specifically in response to 7's argument that some fans will go away if fighting is banned.

I have no problem with a teammate sticking up for another player, but let's be honest- the majority of fights these days are draws and not that entertaining. It's not like we're getting UFC quality matches out there.

And fighting is an action that stops the play and flow of a game, it's entirely different from shot blocking, slapshots and hitting, which directly contribute to a team trying to win. As mouse said, fighting largely disappears in the playoffs and I don't hear anyone complain about it.

I'd say it was about as entertaining as two dudes rolling around on the ground, which is basically what every UFC fight I've seen ended up as. BORING.

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I'd say it was about as entertaining as two dudes rolling around on the ground, which is basically what every UFC fight I've seen ended up as. BORING.

tbh I've never seen a UFC fight in my life... Probably a bad example I guess but my point stands that the quality of fights is so often lacking that they're more boring to watch than any actual gameplay...

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tbh I've never seen a UFC fight in my life... Probably a bad example I guess but my point stands that the quality of fights is so often lacking that they're more boring to watch than any actual gameplay...

I just wanted to get a dig in at the UFC. I seriously have no idea how anyone finds it entertaining.

I like when guys fight who don't usually fight. Then it's entertaining because they don't spend the whole time avoiding getting hit like the Janssen-Prust fight was. Those guys know if they let the other guy get a clean shot in, it could be lights out. Two non-fighters and there's less strategy, which makes it more exciting to me.

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Attl. Ufc is one of the fastest growing sports in the u.s right now. They dnt get payed like boxers do but it can be entertaining if you want to like it lol

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Attl. Ufc is one of the fastest growing sports in the u.s right now. They dnt get payed like boxers do but it can be entertaining if you want to like it lol

Oh I know it's popular right now and I've seen several fights. Every single one is a SNORE FEST. I don't want to see some dude getting bludgeoned by another guy's fists while he's pinned on the ground, it's beyond boring. I would much rather watch boxing, which even can get a bit boring depending on the fighters.

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