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Fire DeBoer Thread

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What's interesting about the Schneider deal is that apparently it was agreed to the night before and Lou wanted it under wraps for the sake of fans going to the draft. I wonder if he figured at the time Nishuskin would not be available, which would make it a more palatable trade.

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dr33, understand what you're saying, but once Lou made the Schneider deal, he made the Devils a win now team, due to Schneider's age and upcoming UFA status.  He clearly didn't pay the price he did for Schneider thinking he'd be a two-year rental, and Cory isn't a young prospect who needs development and seasoning.  The Devils don't have a goalie in their system and probably won't be able to acquire anyone nearly as good as Schneider is.  It's on Lou to show Cory he's not crazy to sign up to spend his prime years here, which means Lou is going to have to be very cautious about selling.   

 

If you want to argue Lou should've used his first-rounder to draft a high-upside player that needs to develop, and brought in a stop-gap type in net, I guess you could do that, but let's face it, at that time Lou didn't know Kovy was going to bail.  I for one liked that he went out and got a guy like Schneider that should be a terrific goaltender for most of a potential long-term deal, but at the same time, it means that Lou has to start making some very shrewd moves, and very soon.     

 

This goes both ways, by holding on to players that won't be here for long until we lose them, how is Lou going to convince Cory that there's some goal support coming his way with nothing in the pipeline and only a few picks and no first round pick this year? 

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Lou's first 'faliure' is the inability to get a franchise-type center.  Still, these players are rare and are almost always drafted in the top 10 of the NHL draft.  There's a few excellent centers who weren't - Benn, O'Reilly, Bergeron, Datsyuk, Giroux, Zetterberg - but by and large these guys get taken in the top 10 picks.  NJ has had 2 of these in the last decade - that sort of player was really not available in 2011 and NJ dealt their pick in 2013.  It's why despite the fact that Detroit has a bunch of young players coming up, I don't really like their future - they don't have one of these guys in their system.  You can get by without one - the Rangers don't have one, Boston might not, Anaheim it's a little questionable - but it's really difficult to do.  So I can't really fault Lou for not managing this.  When you look at what happened to other teams who had a great deal of success in the 90s - Dallas, Colorado - their best players retired or left and obviously they didn't have guys to slide in.  Then you look at a team like Philadelphia which did hit rock bottom one year but has managed to still be pretty good despite numerous terrible decisions at the NHL level - they really do have stellar scouting and have dug up numerous players late in the 1st round.

 

Thing is, it's not a barren prospect pool at all - the D NJ has are very impressive - any one of NJ's top 5 under 23 D would've been their best one in say, 2008.  Trouble is, there's only one guy who looks like a top 6 forward (Boucher), Henrique is okay but nothing special, and the rest of the team is pretty old.  It's going to be very tricky - Lou was definitely hamstrung by the Vanderbeek ownership and that's a shame, but he has a real decision here.  It would not be all that hard to turn this team into a bottom 5 in the league team - remove Schneider and Jagr and you're close - I can't even imagine such a thought is on Lou's mind, though.

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Thing is, it's not a barren prospect pool at all - the D NJ has are very impressive - any one of NJ's top 5 under 23 D would've been their best one in say, 2008.  Trouble is, there's only one guy who looks like a top 6 forward (Boucher), Henrique is okay but nothing special, and the rest of the team is pretty old.  It's going to be very tricky - Lou was definitely hamstrung by the Vanderbeek ownership and that's a shame, but he has a real decision here.  It would not be all that hard to turn this team into a bottom 5 in the league team - remove Schneider and Jagr and you're close - I can't even imagine such a thought is on Lou's mind, though.

 

Rebuilding is not on Lou's mind, and I don't think he will ever stick around to see that happen. I do know the new owners probably have no issue rebuilding as they are tanking big time in the NBA, and happy to do it. The NHL is a different landscape than the NBA, so it might not be that simple for them to accept that.

 

Having great young prospects are great, but watching Devils hockey over the last 5-10 years, the difference between having HOF defenseman and average ones hasn't been that big of a difference in terms of regular season success from a defensive standpoint. The system (no matter the coach, no matter the players) has been successful defensively.  If it is was with Stevens, Niedermayer, Rafalski, White, Martin, Mottau, Oduya, Greene, Fayne etc. I know this might be a simplistic look at it, but team defense has always been good.

 

It'll be interesting to see what boost the new crop will give the team over a Fayne or a Harrold. I am sure these guys will be good, but the defense has been excellent for the past two years, and it hasn't meant much without offensive production. Maybe that will be the difference. The offense could greatly improve because of the defense, but how much more are we expecting from Gelinas over Zidlicky.

 

The forward crop is what worries me greatly, no matter how good the defense and goaltending can be (goaltending is a very large question mark past next year). Offensively, there isn't much way to improve it. No draft pick this year, and free agency isn't going to be the answer at all (and really the only thing the Devils have to offer at this point is the excellent Newark Airport of course...all NHLers are flying out to Sochi from Newark!)

 

Trades? That seems like the only way to improve the situation at this point.

Edited by devilsrule33

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We may not have made it to the cup finals without Zach (eventhough when he signed somewhere else Zach was suddenly a chocker/ghost/useless in the playoffs according to some people here, so then we didnt need him that much right? ) but we didnt win. BUT we'd be in better shape for the future than we are now. Same thing with Clarkson. Lesser return but we could have got something decent for him honestly.

 

So yeah, im not saying we SHOULD have traded Zach, all im saying is that we have a GREAT example here about what happen if you gamble going all out and live strictly in the present and not looking farther. We made it to the finals, but it ultimately lead us to miss the playoffs quite possibly for years after than. Same as this year, not looking up for our future could hurt us a lot more. And of course im ignoring the whole playoffs revenue aspect cause thats completely different and not related)

 

Clearly you're a black on white guy if you still havent understood that im never suggesting anything black and white but always making examples with lots of shades. Well if you can't get it by now why am i even trying.

 

 

I'm really growing to hate the Monday Morning Quarterback mentality of "well we coulda gotten something trading him instead of letting him walk".....go back and look when the major player gets traded....did Atlanta get ANYTHING useful for Kovalchuk? (Just as an example)....in these big time trades in any sport....when you give up the big name player you almost never get the winning end of the trade (the only one I can think of that worked out for the team getting the guy was when the Cowboys got Hershel Walker.....maybe Buffalo will for Vanek, but they're going to own the entire first round by the time they're done dealing anyway )

 

The odds of them getting anything useful are NOT good.....all it would do is change the bitching from "well we shoulda traded him" to "dammit Lou shoulda kept him and tried to negotiate more with him"

 

teams have bad cycles....the Devils are in one....get used to it :P

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I'm really growing to hate the Monday Morning Quarterback mentality of "well we coulda gotten something trading him instead of letting him walk".....go back and look when the major player gets traded....did Atlanta get ANYTHING useful for Kovalchuk? (Just as an example)....in these big time trades in any sport....when you give up the big name player you almost never get the winning end of the trade (the only one I can think of that worked out for the team getting the guy was when the Cowboys got Hershel Walker.....maybe Buffalo will for Vanek, but they're going to own the entire first round by the time they're done dealing anyway )

 

The odds of them getting anything useful are NOT good.....all it would do is change the bitching from "well we shoulda traded him" to "dammit Lou shoulda kept him and tried to negotiate more with him"

 

teams have bad cycles....the Devils are in one....get used to it :P

 

Well you know what Atlanta did? they got with Kovy and figured they couldnt keep him before it was too late.  The pick they got got them Big Buff with is pretty damn helpful to them right now isn't it? 

 

the problems and lack of picks prospects and living without Zach and Clarkson (wtv) right now "could" have been avoided simply by Lou getting his head out of his own ass refusing to talk during the season so that he only figured way too late he'd lose them. 100% out of stubborness, why the fvck would you not want to gave preliminary talks, it absolutely cannot hurt and from elias quotes and from a few guys, players would like not to be kept in the dark.

Edited by SterioDesign

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Well you know what Atlanta did? they got with Kovy and figured they couldnt keep him before it was too late.  The pick they got got them Big Buff with is pretty damn helpful to them right now isn't it? 

 

the problems and lack of picks prospects and living without Zach and Clarkson (wtv) right now "could" have been avoided simply by Lou getting his head out of his own ass refusing to talk during the season so that he only figured way too late he'd lose them.

 

Zach and Clarkson had raging hard-ons to got to Minny and Toronto. Lou could have talked to them, but my guess is that Lou could have talked to them til the cows came home and they still woul have tested FA

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Zach and Clarkson had raging hard-ons to got to Minny and Toronto. Lou could have talked to them, but my guess is that Lou could have talked to them til the cows came home and they still woul have tested FA

 

 

Wasn't there a rumor when Zach was an RFA that he was going to take the 7 year $49 million contract with us but his agent told him to hold out till free agency thinking he would get more?

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Wasn't there a rumor when Zach was an RFA that he was going to take the 7 year $49 million contract with us but his agent told him to hold out till free agency thinking he would get more?

 

yup

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Zach and Clarkson had raging hard-ons to got to Minny and Toronto. Lou could have talked to them, but my guess is that Lou could have talked to them til the cows came home and they still woul have tested FA

 

Thats not the point of them still testing it, its about Lou getting options for himself knowing they could walk. Going blindly in negociations and waiting last minute when a guy can just tell himself "well im gonna wait a week or 2 and see if i can get more" Lou has put them in that situation where he had absolutely no leverage. What other GM took that risk? Look around the league and look at all the top players that we're about to be unrestricted, they were all signed during the season or prior. You simply can't take that risk unless somehow you REALLY have to. 

Wasn't there a rumor when Zach was an RFA that he was going to take the 7 year $49 million contract with us but his agent told him to hold out till free agency thinking he would get more?

 

So now rumours about something Lou related has to be taken like its cash? but when there's trade rumours that the fans are not up for they call it bullsh!t cause nothing leaks from Lou.

 

lol this fanbase is so much fun. They just really take what they want when it's working for them and ignore the rest when it doesnt.

 

plus even if its true. Lou can be a hardballer when he wants to, you think Getzlaf and Perry's agent didnt think he could get more in the summer? Somehow they got it done. And so did all those other guys around the league. 

 

Plus the financial thing excuse doesnt really work cause the refinancing was still not done and settle at the trade deadline and Lou offered a good deal, he was in the same financial situation than before the season or in the middle of it. 

Edited by SterioDesign

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Thats not the point of them still testing it, its about Lou getting options for himself knowing they could walk. Going blindly in negociations and waiting last minute when a guy can just tell himself "well im gonna wait a week or 2 and see if i can get more" Lou has put them in that situation where he had absolutely no leverage. What other GM took that risk? Look around the league and look at all the top players that we're about to be unrestricted, they were all signed during the season or prior. You simply can't take that risk unless somehow you REALLY have to. 

 

So now rumours about something Lou related has to be taken like its cash? but when there's trade rumours that the fans are not up for they call it bullsh!t cause nothing leaks from Lou.

 

lol this fanbase is so much fun. They just really take what they want when it's working for them and ignore the rest when it doesnt.

 

plus even if its true. Lou can be a hardballer when he wants to, you think Getzlaf and Perry's agent didnt think he could get more in the summer? Somehow they got it done. And so did all those other guys around the league. 

 

Plus the financial thing excuse doesnt really work cause the refinancing was still not done and settle at the trade deadline and Lou offered a good deal, he was in the same financial situation than before the season or in the middle of it. 

Rules are hell of a lot different now than they were then. Lou could've given Parise a blank check and it would not have mattered. He was leaving. Go ahead and rip Lou all you want for not trading him. Anyone who wants to win does the same thing there, I don't care if I knew for sure he was walking, I'm not trading him at that deadline.  

 

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME - if GMs had your mindset it would be nothing but perpetually building for the future. 

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Did the Kings trade Dustin Brown in 2012?  No.  And the Rangers aren't trading Callahan either, I don't believe that bs for a second...teams don't trade big UFA's when they're in the midst of a playoff run.  GM's look at it like getting a deadline rental for free.

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Rules are hell of a lot different now than they were then. Lou could've given Parise a blank check and it would not have mattered. He was leaving. Go ahead and rip Lou all you want for not trading him. Anyone who wants to win does the same thing there, I don't care if I knew for sure he was walking, I'm not trading him at that deadline.  

 

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME - if GMs had your mindset it would be nothing but perpetually building for the future

 

With SD the present never comes.  Unless you're 100% guaranteed to win the Cup (which no team ever is, no matter how stacked you are on paper), you plan for next season and say to hell with the current one. 

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If you want to kill Lou, kill him for his antiquated we can't negotiate during the season nonsense, that's the one thing he should be second-guessed on.  Since teams can and have signed big-name guys during the season (Getzlaf/Perry last year, Lundqvist and Phaneuf this year, etc).

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Parise was gone no matter what, he didn't wanna stay here, he turned down what two contracts form Lou, one long term, matching Minnesota? Let it go Jesus.

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What's interesting about the Schneider deal is that apparently it was agreed to the night before and Lou wanted it under wraps for the sake of fans going to the draft. I wonder if he figured at the time Nishuskin would not be available, which would make it a more palatable trade.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Lou didn't give a crap about Nickushin, Conte supposedly admitted they would have taken a guy that went outside the top ten (Domi, Horvat?) if they had drafted and there was no way they were drafting a Russian after what was about to go down with Kovy.

Lou has also talked extension during the season recently.

 

Zajac doesn't count, he signed him five minutes before the season.  The Parise contract may or may not have been offered, that was a rumor that originated 'here'.

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Lou didn't give a crap about Nickushin, Conte supposedly admitted they would have taken a guy that went outside the top ten (Domi, Horvat?) if they had drafted and there was no way they were drafting a Russian after what was about to go down with Kovy.

 

 

I never heard him say anything like that - source?  I believe you, just curious where he said it.

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Rebuilding is not on Lou's mind, and I don't think he will ever stick around to see that happen. I do know the new owners probably have no issue rebuilding as they are tanking big time in the NBA, and happy to do it. The NHL is a different landscape than the NBA, so it might not be that simple for them to accept that.

 

Having great young prospects are great, but watching Devils hockey over the last 5-10 years, the difference between having HOF defenseman and average ones hasn't been that big of a difference in terms of regular season success from a defensive standpoint. The system (no matter the coach, no matter the players) has been successful defensively.  If it is was with Stevens, Niedermayer, Rafalski, White, Martin, Mottau, Oduya, Greene, Fayne etc. I know this might be a simplistic look at it, but team defense has always been good.

 

It'll be interesting to see what boost the new crop will give the team over a Fayne or a Harrold. I am sure these guys will be good, but the defense has been excellent for the past two years, and it hasn't meant much without offensive production. Maybe that will be the difference. The offense could greatly improve because of the defense, but how much more are we expecting from Gelinas over Zidlicky.

 

The forward crop is what worries me greatly, no matter how good the defense and goaltending can be (goaltending is a very large question mark past next year). Offensively, there isn't much way to improve it. No draft pick this year, and free agency isn't going to be the answer at all (and really the only thing the Devils have to offer at this point is the excellent Newark Airport of course...all NHLers are flying out to Sochi from Newark!)

 

Trades? That seems like the only way to improve the situation at this point.

 

You're viewing the game in too polar a fashion.  Offense and defense are tied together.  NJ might even be worse defensively when these young guys take over.  But they'll be better offensively - Fayne is a nice player, and so is someone like Volchenkov.  Volchenkov suppresses shots ridiculously, but part of the cost is that he suppresses his own team's shots as well.

 

The 2000 Devils have a claim to being the best team of the last 20 years - they outshot their opponents by 190 in the playoffs.  They gave up 23 shots a game and they played 2 very long overtime games.  Throw those games out and NJ averaged 22 shots per game given up.  That's insane.  Defensemen still matter - the biggest key there is that NJ was leading most of those games.  Sure, NJ only gave up 23 shots a game last season, but they were trailing a ton of their games last year, against a weaker conference.

 

If NJ landed Stastny, kept Jagr, Boucher has a quantum leap forward, and Salvador is jettisoned, I think this team's offense could be middle of the pack.  That's a ton of ifs, but yeah - it's possible.

Edited by Triumph

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Thats not the point of them still testing it, its about Lou getting options for himself knowing they could walk. Going blindly in negociations and waiting last minute when a guy can just tell himself "well im gonna wait a week or 2 and see if i can get more" Lou has put them in that situation where he had absolutely no leverage. What other GM took that risk? Look around the league and look at all the top players that we're about to be unrestricted, they were all signed during the season or prior. You simply can't take that risk unless somehow you REALLY have to. 

 

So now rumours about something Lou related has to be taken like its cash? but when there's trade rumours that the fans are not up for they call it bullsh!t cause nothing leaks from Lou.

 

lol this fanbase is so much fun. They just really take what they want when it's working for them and ignore the rest when it doesnt.

 

plus even if its true. Lou can be a hardballer when he wants to, you think Getzlaf and Perry's agent didnt think he could get more in the summer? Somehow they got it done. And so did all those other guys around the league. 

 

Plus the financial thing excuse doesnt really work cause the refinancing was still not done and settle at the trade deadline and Lou offered a good deal, he was in the same financial situation than before the season or in the middle of it. 

 

The guy who puts stock into every rumor he sees on Twitter doesn't believe one that makes his personal Zach theory wrong? Shocking. How is that any different from the way you accuse everyone else of ignoring what doesn't fit their own mindset? 

 

Getzlaf and Perry were in a different situation where Anaheim could offer an extra year that no other team could. 

 

And you've never explained how talking to a guy in the season that you know you'll be keeping for a playoff run anyway does anything. Neither Parise or Clarkson were being traded. 

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We were in much better shape in 2012. There was no way Lou would have traded Parise or Clarkson back then.

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We were in much better shape in 2012. There was no way Lou would have traded Parise or Clarkson back then.

 

Re:  Parise, of course not.  That team had improved throughout the season after a 12-12-1 (heavily buoyed by six shootout wins) start. 

 

Re:  Clarkson, Devils were still in the playoff hunt at the time with a 15-12-9 record at the time of the deadline.  Unfortunately, an 0-6-1 nosedive followed, which SD will probably say Lou should've seen coming.    

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I never heard him say anything like that - source?  I believe you, just curious where he said it.

 

I saw it on HF a while back but I couldn't find the direct thread/quote in search, just this and the few subsequent posts on it

 

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showpost.php?p=76520555&postcount=514

Edited by NJDevs4978

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Lamoriello has a track record for not signing players in season, but that doesn't mean he doesn't talk to them, feel them out and lay groundwork. Let's not confuse the two. Lou has always been of the opinion that if a player thinks he can get more money someplace else, he's entitled to it as a FA and should go get it. Lamoriello views each player as an asset to the team in the present and doesn't believe in trading assets today to spite tomorrow and hurting the team. Even if they told him to his face they're walking in July, it isn't happening.  

 

SD, Lou's been here since 1987. This is common knowledge. You can probably find the quotes online if you want to spend the time looking. Lou isn't the Lou of old anymore, but there's some things he's just not changing. He's not going to magically turn into Glen Sather with in season signings.

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