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Maxime Clermont

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I just think we should talk about the fact that he thinks goalies aren't that important. Goalie is one of the most important positions, if not the most important. What bad goalies are winning Stanley Cups? I imagine not a whole fvcking lot.

 

At the very least, you need goalies who are capable of raising (or at the very least, maintaining) their games during the playoffs (Brodeur has done that, as have others).  Of course, it may take years before that question can be answered with some guys, but you can deal with slightly above average in the regular season if a goalie kicks it up a notch or two come playoff time (provided that goalie isn't killing you in the regular season).   

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lol you say this here but in the Marty thread you say "Kinkaid is going to be solid" as if it's a given...How can you say that if goalies are such crapshoots?

You ignored my other posts. Go find them.

Busted..

Nope.

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Since when is it rare for a goalie to be drafted in higher rounds? Goalies are spread pretty evenly throughout every draft. One that is expected to be a great goalie may be drafted earlier and one that's not like say, Clermont, is drafted in the 6th.

Its quite uncommon. Also go look at the best goalies in the league and go see their draft position. Some are in the first, but many are like in the 100s in terms of being picked. Its all over the place.

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I just think we should talk about the fact that he thinks goalies aren't that important. Goalie is one of the most important positions, if not the most important. What bad goalies are winning Stanley Cups? I imagine not a whole fvcking lot.

True but an elite forward capable of 100 points is more valuable. Goalies have a limited role. Their job is to prevent goals. The 5 skaters are also capable of preventing goals, but they also have to score goals as well.

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True but an elite forward capable of 100 points is more valuable. Goalies have a limited role. Their job is to prevent goals. The 5 skaters are also capable of preventing goals, but they also have to score goals as well.

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I've never heard of a foward stealing a game. You can get outplayed in every facet of the game but have an unstoppable goal tender and still win. Their limited role is the most important role, and as a devils fan I would imagine you would have that mentallity. Stopping the other team from scoring is priority number one.

 

 

 If you had to choose between a 100 point foward or a decent upgrade in goalie, sure you would take the 100point player because those are pretty rare as well. But if you could take Sidney Crosby or Patrick Roy/Martin Broduer who would you take? I would take one of the goalies.

Edited by Sneax

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I've never heard of a foward stealing a game. You can get outplayed in every facet of the game but have an unstoppable goal tender and still win. Their limited role is the most important role, and as a devils fan I would imagine you would have that mentallity. Stopping the other team from scoring is priority number one.

If you had to choose between a 100 point foward or a decent upgrade in goalie, sure you would take the 100point player because those are pretty rare as well. But if you could take Sidney Crosby or Patrick Roy/Martin Broduer who would you take? I would take one of the goalies.

I would take Crosby. Most GMs would agree with me. I love goalies. But the difference between a great goalie and an average goalie isn't astronomical. The difference between an elite forward and average forward is astronomical.

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Nope.

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You never know with goalies.  They're such a crapshoot,

 
Followed less than 7 hours later with..
 

Kinkaid is going to be a solid goalie.  

 

Consistency.  That's all I want.  You lose all credibility when you play both sides of a discussion, and then backtrack by claiming we don't "understand" what you're trying to say.  I feel like a hypocrite when I reply to you like this though, because I'm doing so in the interest of de-clogging the boards - but in reality I'm helping derail the thread as much as you are by giving you another chance to post.

 

You know what the most unfortunate part is though?  Putting you on ignore isn't a feasible option - people keep quoting you.  Trust me, I tried, and it doesn't help at all.

Edited by Devilsfan118

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Followed less than 7 hours later with..

Consistency. That's all I want. You lose all credibility when you play both sides of a discussion, and then backtrack by claiming we don't "understand" what you're trying to say. I feel like a hypocrite when I reply to you like this though, because I'm doing so in the interest of de-clogging the boards - but in reality I'm helping derail the thread as much as you are by giving you another chance to post.

You know what the most annoying part is though? Putting you on ignore isn't a feasible option - people keep quoting you. Trust me, I tried, and it doesn't help at all.

I'm not playing both sides. I simply said I believe Kinkaid is going to be a solid goalie. And soon after stated that its hard to predict goalies in which case I could be wrong about him.

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Its quite uncommon. Also go look at the best goalies in the league and go see their draft position. Some are in the first, but many are like in the 100s in terms of being picked. Its all over the place.

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The top 20 goalies by save percentage. Those seem like some pretty decent long-term goalies drafted in the 1st few rounds.

 

1st rd: (7) Rask, Bernier, Schneider, Price, Varlamov, Fluery, Luongo

2nd rd: (4) Harding, Peters, Lehner, Crawford

3rd rd: (2) Bishop, Mason

5th rd: (1) Miller

7th rd (2) Khudobin, Lundqvist

undrafted: (4) Scrivens, Lack, Bobrovsky, Hiller

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Its quite uncommon. Also go look at the best goalies in the league and go see their draft position. Some are in the first, but many are like in the 100s in terms of being picked. Its all over the place.

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Two goalies taken in the first round and two more in the second in 2010, three taken in the second round in 2011, two taken in the first round and two more in the second in 2012, four taken in the second round in 2013.  By my math, that's 15 goalies drafted in the top two rounds the past four drafts...yep, sounds pretty rare to me.  Mike, think maybe you could curb your urge to post incessantly by actually doing just the slightest bit of research before posting?  I dug this up in about 5 minutes, tops.  

 

So even when I presented CLEAR EVIDENCE that goalies taken in the higher rounds is not at all uncommon, you act like my post (which is a fact and not an opinion and it directly refutes what you posted) didn't even exist.  Your point about goalies rarely being taken in the early rounds is WRONG, and there's no way can squirm your way out on this one (but I won't be surprised when you try).   

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The top 20 goalies by save percentage. Those seem like some pretty decent long-term goalies drafted in the 1st few rounds.

1st rd: (7) Rask, Bernier, Schneider, Price, Varlamov, Fluery, Luongo

2nd rd: (4) Harding, Peters, Lehner, Crawford

3rd rd: (2) Bishop, Mason

5th rd: (1) Miller

7th rd (2) Khudobin, Lundqvist

undrafted: (4) Scrivens, Lack, Bobrovsky, Hiller

Exactly. All over the place. Belfour was also never drafted and Roy was a 4th round pick I think.

So even when I presented CLEAR EVIDENCE that goalies taken in the higher rounds is not at all uncommon, you act like my post (which is a fact and not an opinion and it directly refutes what you posted) didn't even exist. Your point about goalies rarely being taken in the early rounds is WRONG, and there's no way can squirm your way out on this one (but I won't be surprised when you try).

I didn't see your post. Relax. Considering how often my posts go ignored or misinterpreted, you're in no position to complain.

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Exactly. All over the place. Belfour was also never drafted and Roy was a 4th round pick I think.

I didn't see your post. Relax. Considering how often my posts go ignored or misinterpreted, you're in no position to complain.

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How is that all over the place? More than half are in the first 2 rounds. The other 9 are spread through 5 rounds and undrafted.

 

What does Belfour or Roy have to do with it? I just listed the top 20 in the league right now.

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How is that all over the place? More than half are in the first 2 rounds. The other 9 are spread through 5 rounds and undrafted.

What does Belfour or Roy have to do with it? I just listed the top 20 in the league right now.

But why ignore history? Historically you'll see more of the randomness I'm talking about.

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But why ignore history? Historically you'll see more of the randomness I'm talking about.

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So... your argument is look at the top goalies, it's random. Then I show you it isn't. So now I have to look back at history. Did you ever think of just not posting if you don't know something?

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Just sheer idiocy, talks about history clearly hasn't looked for himself. Starting to think he's a troll because his stupidity is endless. It's actually becoming extremley infuriating because he has an opinion that conflicts with general consensus on everything. And even when he disproves himself and/or is shown facts to dispute his opinion he continues to stay stubborn.

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Just sheer idiocy, talks about history clearly hasn't looked for himself. Starting to think he's a troll because his stupidity is endless. It's actually becoming extremley infuriating because he has an opinion that conflicts with general consensus on everything. And even when he disproves himself and/or is shown facts to dispute his opinion he continues to stay stubborn.

 

I don't think he's trolling..I just don't think he realizes how frustrating he is.

Edited by Devilsfan118
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So... your argument is look at the top goalies, it's random. Then I show you it isn't. So now I have to look back at history. Did you ever think of just not posting if you don't know something?

 

It is random.  Would you like for me to make a list as well?

I have a theory about Mike that I won't share out of respect to his personal business, but I've known a few people (particularly old engineering classmates at Rutgers) that were like Mike in certain social situations.

 

I don't think he's trolling..I just don't think he realizes how frustrating he is.

 

I appreciate this post.  Thank you.

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It is random.  Would you like for me to make a list as well?

 

I appreciate this post.  Thank you.

 

What list are you going to make? You said it's rare for a goalie to be drafted in the high rounds, CR1976 showed you it isn't. You suggested that the best goalies in the league are randomly placed throughout the draft, and I showed that more that half of the top 20 in save percentage were taken in the first 2 rounds. Are there randoms in there? Of course, but that goes for any position on the ice. You expect more from a 1st or 2nd round pick than you do from a 6th.

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I feel responsible for this mess. Let me weigh in enough to make a point, but not get involved enough to get yelled at. In fairness to mike, when saying goalies are a craps shoot, I'm fairly certain he was referring to draft picks. I'm not going to agree or disagree, because I have no idea. But him guessing kinkaid is going to be solid while maintaining the success of young goalies coming in are generally unpredictable isn't at all playing both sides. Kinkaid has years of professional experience we can use as a sample to decide either way. A seventeen year old coming out of a prep school in mass will be a bit up in the air, at least I think. I'm not a scout. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I could've easily googled clermonts draft position and saved this whole thing.

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What list are you going to make? You said it's rare for a goalie to be drafted in the high rounds, CR1976 showed you it isn't. You suggested that the best goalies in the league are randomly placed throughout the draft, and I showed that more that half of the top 20 in save percentage were taken in the first 2 rounds. Are there randoms in there? Of course, but that goes for any position on the ice. You expect more from a 1st or 2nd round pick than you do from a 6th.

 

What about other years besides this year?  

 

Goalies are more random than in any other position from what I can tell.  There's several ways I can prove my point.  But I'll start with Vezina winners.

 

2013: Bobrovsky - undrafted

2012: Lundqvist - 7th round

2011: Thomas - 9th round

2010: Miller - 5th round

2009: Thomas - 9th round

2008: Brodeur - 1st round

2007: Brodeur - 1st round

2006: Kiprusoff - 5th round

2004: Brodeur - 1st round

2003: Brodeur - 1st round

2002: Theodore - 2nd round

2001: Hasek - 10th round

2000: Kolzig - 1st round

1999: Hasek - 10th round

1998: Hasek - 10th round

1997: Hasek - 10th round

1996: Carey - 2nd round

1995: Hasek - 10th round

1994: Hasek - 10th round

1993: Belfour - undrafted

1992: Roy - 4th round

1991: Belfour - undrafted

1990: Roy - 4th round

 

Carey, Kolzig, Theodore, and Marty are the only ones of my list to be 1st or 2nd rounders.

 

Roy, Belfour, Hasek, Kipper, Thomas, Miller, Lundqvist, and Bobrovsky are all 4th round or later picks.

Edited by Mike Brown

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I think just posting this is a blatant disrespect of his personal business.

Edited by thecoffeecake

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I think just posting this is a blatant disrespect to his personal business.

 

I don't agree, I don't think it was in particularly poor taste - but I've removed it from the post and you should probably remove it from your quote if you feel any it's the right thing to do.

 

Regarding this thread..it's run its course.  I'm out.

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