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roomtemp

This has to be the most frustrating season I've seen as a fan

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I'm not saying that it's all good bounces and puck luck, or discrediting anyone.  I'm saying I don't think Jagr's 5-game, one-assist run is based on him being spent.  Like Tri pointed out, he's still getting shots, and he's still making plays.  They're just not resulting in points at the moment. 

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This season has really annoyed me for the handling of our young players (a recurring theme, it seems). Josefson never gets a chance to play with skilled players on a consistent basis. Merrill got way too much ice time, Gelinas has been tossed around like Matt Corente, and Larsson is in Albany! Matteau or Boucher playing up here more wouldve made things more fun watching them develop. Hopefully next year they will be ready and we can get rid of the older dead weight.

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Forgot to mention the 2001-02 team.  They went from 295 GF and being one of the most entertaining teams in the NHL to 205 GF and often maddening to watch...they also managed to get the coach who had led them to consecutive SC Finals canned.  They won 14 out of their final 18 GP that season under Kevin Constantine, but even then they seemed to question his style at every turn (Brodeur sure did in his book)...I don't know what that team's problem was, but they seemed to act as though they were above having to listen to anyone.  I went to the playoff game where Carolina eliminated them (a 1-0 loss for the Devils), and five minutes into the game I told my then-future wife "They're getting shut out tonight.  They have nothing."  She told me to be optimistic, but they had no life whatsoever...it would've been one thing if the Devils had been playing hard but was extremely unlucky, or Carolina was playing incredibly well, but it just felt like they weren't into it at all, and couldn't wait to get off the ice.  They were pretty heartily booed during the last minute of play and after the game.    

 

I was at that game too. You're right, the team obviously didn't have it, but I was disappointed that there were so many boos as the game ended.

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At least in the early '90's there was the feeling that something serious was building. The feeling in the late '80's was similar, but plateaued for a bit, too those early '90's.

 

Now?  With the exception of those young D, there is nothing exciting to look forward to.

 

Time for Lou to go.

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I'm not looking at points in a vacuum. I definitely understand that there are many intangibles so-to-speak that don't show up in the box score after a game and a player can still have an excellent night without scoring or getting an assist, but to discredit the guys who score 30-40+ goals a year or get 50-60+ assists and suggest they they're only better than 3rd or 4th line guys simply because of a good bounce here or there and "puck luck" is both naïve and unfounded.  The guys you speak of that get a goal and two assists on a given night are usually exactly what I referred to -- a fluke bounce here or there, a tip-in, deflection, or an opposing goalie maybe making a rare mistake.  That's not how Jagr amassed 700 goal though.  Again, taking nothing away from him, he's had an amazing year and we couldn't ask for more, especially considering his age, but it's starting to show a little bit now that the season is wrapping up.

 

I respect everyone's opinion and I'm not here to change your mind, however nothing here has convinced me otherwise that an 82 game season isn't taking it's toll on our 42 yr old superstar.  In fact, someone else just supported the cause for me in the quote that Jagr apparently said himself... "we just finished 4 in 6" -- what more proof do you need than coming from the horse's mouth himself?  He might as well have said "I am worn out" lol.  If he was still in his 20s, or hell, even his early to mid 30s maybe that doesn't effect him as much, but at his age, you can clearly see he's exhausted. 

 

No one said that that was how 1st line players get goals.  Scoring an NHL goal takes a lot of skill but there's also a lot of 'luck' because you are going up against NHL defenses and NHL goalies intent on stopping you.  Look at Henrique's goal from Saturday - it was a skilled play, but it comes off a fluky puck bounce.  A lot of NHL goals start that way.  A lot of NHL goals go in off skates and sticks and arms and legs.  That's why shots on goal are so important - you never know which shots are going to go in, but in general, the more pucks you put on the net, the more likely you are to score.  Obviously there are limitations to this - firing from everywhere isn't really a recipe for success - but generally offenses which have more shots have more goals.

 

You are putting the cart before the horse when you say that Jagr is slowing down - what evidence is there of that, other than that he is 42 years old?  If he were 28, would you say he's slowing down?  Of course not.  So we look at other things that happen on the ice other than goals and assists - is Jagr getting shots on goal, is his line spending time in the offensive zone?  The answer to both things is emphatically yes.  So again, show me the evidence that Jagr is slowing down.  

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I was at that game too. You're right, the team obviously didn't have it, but I was disappointed that there were so many boos as the game ended.

 

I think that was the culmination of team falling so far from the previous season...I think with the A-line having the kind of season they did in 2001, everyone (even announcers) kept saying things like "for the next decade" when it came to them.  And the depth that year was insane...of course, you also had three guys put up terrific years from a goal-scoring standpoint:  McKay, Brylin, and Madden all put in 23 each.  I remember one game where friggin' Pierre Dagenais and Jiri Bicek were called up and they both scored to give the Devils a 2-1 win at some point during the season.  And then they go 19-2-0 to finish out the 2000-01 regular season...I think the fall from the previous year was a lot to take.  I also think a lot of people were doubting at the time whether trading Arnott was the right move...and worried about losing Holik...so I think a lot of fans were unsure and nervous about what the future was going to bring.  Just a lot of negative emotions that were exacerbated by a lifeless 1-0 loss.

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I'm not saying that it's all good bounces and puck luck, or discrediting anyone.  I'm saying I don't think Jagr's 5-game, one-assist run is based on him being spent.  Like Tri pointed out, he's still getting shots, and he's still making plays.  They're just not resulting in points at the moment. 

 

It's still a tenuous argument to claim that Jagr is "keeping this team afloat."

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I can't buy any of this MSweet for a few reasons:

 

There have been so many boring Devils teams to watch. CR1976 named a few of them. There just haven't been many times in the team's history since Lou came where they've missed the playoffs. So you add that with them not having a real dynamic player, and sure it sucks.

 

Jagr has not worn out. There have been a lot of games he has scored a sh!t goal, and we marvel, but he's had a plethora of chances over the last few games.

 

As for emotionless coaching...I hate that. Deboer gets angry, but as I have said a few times here, what good comes from a freak out  in front of the media where you are calling out players by name. That's a real good way of getting a team to quit on you. He might be giving it to them in the locker room, but he is smart enough to turn it off in front of the media. There's been very few no show games by the team this year. Maybe that's when you go crazy, but he's smart enough to know that results doesn't mean a lack of effort. You can't scream about lack of finish.

 

 

I won't argue each point since this is about MY OPINION that this team is the most painful to watch for me.

 

Jagr's luck has changed because he is wearing.. that is usually the first sign.. pucks stop going in.. he's not getting to the spots where you get those goals anymore.

 

A mediocre team without a superstar is going to be boring...period. We don't even have Marty being amazing anymore to steal a game in spectacular fashion.

 

And DeBoer doesn't inspire his players, especially the younger players and that is what I meant.

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No one said that that was how 1st line players get goals.  Scoring an NHL goal takes a lot of skill but there's also a lot of 'luck' because you are going up against NHL defenses and NHL goalies intent on stopping you.  Look at Henrique's goal from Saturday - it was a skilled play, but it comes off a fluky puck bounce.  A lot of NHL goals start that way.  A lot of NHL goals go in off skates and sticks and arms and legs.  That's why shots on goal are so important - you never know which shots are going to go in, but in general, the more pucks you put on the net, the more likely you are to score.  Obviously there are limitations to this - firing from everywhere isn't really a recipe for success - but generally offenses which have more shots have more goals.

 

You are putting the cart before the horse when you say that Jagr is slowing down - what evidence is there of that, other than that he is 42 years old?  If he were 28, would you say he's slowing down?  Of course not.  So we look at other things that happen on the ice other than goals and assists - is Jagr getting shots on goal, is his line spending time in the offensive zone?  The answer to both things is emphatically yes.  So again, show me the evidence that Jagr is slowing down.  

I wouldn't exactly call Henrique's goal fluky.  It wasn't your typical sniper wrist shot that picks a corner, or a Stamkos-type down-on-one-knee blast, but it took a lot of SKILL to be able to recognize that the goalie was confused and then sneak and tuck the puck just around the post.  Granted Jagr was never the fastest player to begin with, but I can't help but feel like you're proving my point here because had Jagr not be "worn out", then maybe he makes that type of play because it takes speed and quickness to do so (a half second slower and Henqirue is stuffed by the left pad).  That's just it though, he ISN'T making those plays anymore, at least not for the past half dozen games.  Is he attempting them?  Maybe, which could be evidenced by the fact that you're saying he is still producing lots of shots, but the point is that he's no longer executing at the moment.  

 

That's how I can show you he's worn out.

Edited by NJDfan1711

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I wouldn't exactly call Henrique's goal fluky.  It wasn't your typical sniper wrist shot that picks a corner, or a Stamkos-type down-on-one-knee blast, but it took a lot of SKILL to be able to recognize that the goalie was confused and then sneak and tuck the puck just around the post.  Granted Jagr was never the fastest player to begin with, but I can't help but feel like you're proving my point here because had Jagr not be "worn out", then maybe he makes that type of play because it takes speed and quickness to do so (a half second slower and Henqirue is stuffed by the left pad).  That's just it though, he ISN'T making those plays anymore, at least not for the past half dozen games.  Is he attempting them?  Maybe, which could be evidenced by the fact that you're saying he is still producing lots of shots, but the point is that he's no longer executing at the moment.  

 

That's how I can show you he's worn out.

 

You're not really reading what I'm saying.  The only reason the puck got to Henrique is because the defenseman kicked it to him inadvertently - most of the time, even when the D kicks it, it doesn't go right on to Henrique's tape.  So what Henrique did from there required lots of skill, but he's rarely getting that chance.

 

Again, if a 29 year old player were getting 4+ shots a game and not scoring, you would not say he is tired.  You are arguing that he is worn out from his age and that's all.  Scoring in the NHL is very streaky - even the best players can go a long time without a goal.

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Again, if a 29 year old player were getting 4+ shots a game and not scoring, you would not say he is tired.  You are arguing that he is worn out from his age and that's all.  Scoring in the NHL is very streaky - even the best players can go a long time without a goal.

Well first of all... no kidding!  That's the whole point.  Comparing Jagr to a 29yr old is not fair because that's the essence of what we're talking about here.  Jagr IS 42 years old. It's only natural that he get worn out after 60-some games!   Secondly, I'm not arguing based solely on his age, I'm arguing on his age, the point we're at in the season, and his lack of productivity as this given time.

 

Beyond that, it's not even necessarily true to say we wouldn't be saying the same about that 29yr old.  If that 29yr old player were like Jagr and used to racking up lots of goals and assists, then goes dry for a half dozen games, particularly at the end of the season, I think it's reasonable to speculate that he's "worn out", if not for age, then just endurance and energy in general (some guys are built for marathons and long seasons, other guys are great in spurts and short stints)

 

Anyway, I think we've debated enough.  I respect your opinion and I guess we'll see in the next few weeks if Jags gets out of this, slump, we'll call it :)

Edited by NJDfan1711

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Absolutely beautiful. Never quit on that goal. And two absolutely perfect passes to set that up. What a play.

Good for zajac

Oops wrong thread

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Well first of all... no kidding!  That's the whole point.  Comparing Jagr to a 29yr old is not fair because that's the essence of what we're talking about here.  Jagr IS 42 years old. It's only natural that he get worn out after 60-some games!   Secondly, I'm not arguing based solely on his age, I'm arguing on his age, the point we're at in the season, and his lack of productivity as this given time.

 

Beyond that, it's not even necessarily true to say we wouldn't be saying the same about that 29yr old.  If that 29yr old player were like Jagr and used to racking up lots of goals and assists, then goes dry for a half dozen games, particularly at the end of the season, I think it's reasonable to speculate that he's "worn out", if not for age, then just endurance and energy in general (some guys are built for marathons and long seasons, other guys are great in spurts and short stints)

 

Anyway, I think we've debated enough.  I respect your opinion and I guess we'll see in the next few weeks if Jags gets out of this, slump, we'll call it :)

 

Wanna retract any of this? 

 

I'm guessing if Jagr had put up 4 points or so in his last 5 before last night, you probably wouldn't have said anything about him being worn out.  Again, the dangers of just looking at points and making assumptions based on them alone. 

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Wanna retract any of this? 

 

I'm guessing if Jagr had put up 4 points or so in his last 5 before last night, you probably wouldn't have said anything about him being worn out.  Again, the dangers of just looking at points and making assumptions based on them alone. 

No, of course not.  He certainly looked rejuvenated last night and was playing his ass off, but I stand by what I said earlier -- he looked flat the previous half dozen games, which translated onto the scoresheet.

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No, of course not.  He certainly looked rejuvenated last night and was playing his ass off, but I stand by what I said earlier -- he looked flat the previous half dozen games, which translated onto the scoresheet.

 

But if he went pointless last night, would you be saying he looked rejuvenated?  You'd probably be saying that he only has one point in his last 6 games.  I just don't see where he's looked flat lately.  Agree to disagree I guess, but I think you're basing your observations mostly on point production. 

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But if he went pointless last night, would you be saying he looked rejuvenated?  You'd probably be saying that he only has one point in his last 6 games.  I just don't see where he's looked flat lately.  Agree to disagree I guess, but I think you're basing your observations mostly on point production. 

Stats are definitely part of it for sure, but I also try to pay close attention to how players seem on the ice, regardless of whether or not they happen to be scoring, or even if they have the puck for that matter.  I look at the way guys are skating, where they position themselves in relation to the play, and so forth.  I'm not gonna toot my own horn or anything, but I've played hockey for pretty much as long as I've watched it (about 25 years), so I feel I am a pretty good judge of when guys appear tired and gassed, demotivated, because I've been there myself.

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Stats are definitely part of it for sure, but I also try to pay close attention to how players seem on the ice, regardless of whether or not they happen to be scoring, or even if they have the puck for that matter.  I look at the way guys are skating, where they position themselves in relation to the play, and so forth.  I'm not gonna toot my own horn or anything, but I've played hockey for pretty much as long as I've watched it (about 25 years), so I feel I am a pretty good judge of when guys appear tired and gassed, demotivated, because I've been there myself.

 

This. I think a lot of people who use stats a lot as their main argument to back up their points never really played the game. You can never just look at one thing, you have to look at the stats and the play on the ice. Really often guys can be kind of Johnny on the spot and get points without a lot of effort while other times you can play a crazy game but you simply miss the net or buddy who passed it too is not scoring or a huge save or defensive play or god knows.

 

Its like some people here will never ever get that

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Jagr's game last night demostrates sufficiently that he is not worn out. No argument there. He was damn dangerous.

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Jagr's game last night demostrates sufficiently that he is not worn out. No argument there. He was damn dangerous.

 

I hope not.. but I was at the game at ice level and let me tell you Florida had little interest in playing defense against the Jagr-Zajac line. It was obvious from the drop of the puck,

 

Jagr is great and was a great pick up no doubt, but I can see he's picking his spots now.Let's see how he does against the better teams... fortunately we don't have that many of them left.

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I hope not.. but I was at the game at ice level and let me tell you Florida had little interest in playing defense against the Jagr-Zajac line. It was obvious from the drop of the puck,

 

Jagr is great and was a great pick up no doubt, but I can see he's picking his spots now.Let's see how he does against the better teams... fortunately we don't have that many of them left.

 

Of course, let's not pretend like it wasn't some anomaly that Zajac decided NOT to miss the net by 10 feet on every shot he took last night.

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Stats are definitely part of it for sure, but I also try to pay close attention to how players seem on the ice, regardless of whether or not they happen to be scoring, or even if they have the puck for that matter.  I look at the way guys are skating, where they position themselves in relation to the play, and so forth.  I'm not gonna toot my own horn or anything, but I've played hockey for pretty much as long as I've watched it (about 25 years), so I feel I am a pretty good judge of when guys appear tired and gassed, demotivated, because I've been there myself.

 

Jaromir Jagr does not play the same game as you, I don't care how long you've played it.  Although he may make circular arguments like you - that's one thing you might have in common.

 

What you're doing here is exhibiting confirmation bias - you know Jagr's old, and so you're looking for signs that he's fatigued.  Now you're making excuses for why he looked so good last night.

Edited by Triumph

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Within a small sample size, scoring does not define a player as "good", just like not scoring doesn't define a player as "bad". I realize that we're talking about someone looking "tired", but it's really the same argument. I haven't seen much out of Jagr (even when not scoring) that leads me to believe he's worn down or tired. Outside of an injury, coaching staffs regularly look at the whole body of work, not who's hot and who's not.

 

I'll give you an example of when small sample size becomes a problem. I coached a game this winter, we were up by 1 with less than 2:00 left in the 3rd. One of my F's took a penalty. My top two penalty killers are not great hockey players, but they are supposed to understand their role, move their feet, and clear the puck on the PK. One F creates a turnover inside our blueline and chips the puck out. He regains the puck and streaks down the ice 1 v 2 rather than dumping and changing. The D-man on his side of the ice trips while pivoting and my F shoots and scores from the circle, a pretty nice SHG....except that his decisions leading up to the goal were terrible and, in the long run, he would give up far more to the PP than he would be helping the PK. We won the game and he returned to the bench quite proud of himself. I was rather disappointed with his play, regardless of the fact that he scored.

 

As a coach who relies on the "eye-test" quite a bit, I caution you to think that because Jagr wasn't scoring or picking up assists that his play had dropped off.

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Clearly, Jagr saw this thread before last night's game and had to prove he's not worn out.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

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