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Devils Pride 26

In a Season of Problems, Brodeur was the Biggest

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Sooooo...basically because you were proven wrong about something and now don't want to admit it (your implication that Marty was constantly playing on bad offensive teams), you're lumping middle-of-the-pack offensive teams in with poor ones to try to make your (faulty) point and making sh!t up. 

 

The teams that you can rightly list as poor offensively during Brodeur's prime (I think it fully ended with the conclusion of the 2012 playoffs):

 

'95-'96, '01-'02, '05-'06, '06-'07, '07-'08, '09-'10, '10-'11.

 

The rest were middle-of-the-pack or higher.  So 11 out of 18 teams were at least average offensively, and 6 out of those 18 teams were ranked 20th or worse...which I hate to break it to you, is NOT "more often than not".  Don't make things up, especially when the numbers are right there that shows that's exactly what you're doing.

 

And to repeat what I said since it goes with this, the 2007 and 2008 were dreadful offensive teams but featured incredible goaltending seasons from Brodeur. He carried some average teams, especially he 2008 team. That's why people think that if the Devils got the performances from Cory for more than just the games he started, there would be a great chance they'd be in. 

 

Brodeur played 77 games in 2007-2008. Maybe Cory wouldn't have been ready for 77, but 65? That's what it might have taken to get in. Cory's numbers are pretty similar to Brodeur's from that season where they finished 26th in scoring.

Edited by devilsrule33

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Funny, cause so do I. Him playing is the biggest factor, however and I stand by that. 

 

I sat down this morning and said "I wonder what is a bigger difference, the lack of scoring, or the goaltending?" Right away, Minny and LA jump out and show it's possible to score less than us and make the playoffs. Then I looked at save percentage. No goalie in the league comes close to a save percentage as bad as Brodeur's on a playoff team. The first goalie who played a significant amount of games and his headed to the playoffs in Gustavsson and he had a .910 save percentage. 

 

Then I looked at GAA, not a perfect stat, but comparing two goalies on the same team playing in front of the same group, I'd say it tells a pretty good story. 

 

Run Brodeur's 2.52 GAA out there for a team that averages 2.42 goals for over 82 games and that is a recipe for lottery pick bad. Run Schneider's 2.00 out there for a team averaging 2.42 goals a game, that's almost certain playoffs. 

 

You keep bringing up Minnesota and LA but to play devils' advocate (figuratively) the Kings have 96 points, the Wild have 94 and we have 86.  The Kings have eight shootout wins, the Wild have seven - without those points it'd be dead even.  Goaltending wasn't the issue in the shootout where we were sub-10% for the year (basically 3% until the last shootout).

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And to repeat what I said since it goes with this, the 2007 and 2008 were dreadful offensive teams but featured incredible goaltending seasons from Brodeur. He carried some average teams, especially he 2008 team. That's why people think that if the Devils got the performances from Cory for more than just the games he started, there would be a great chance they'd be in. 

 

Brodeur played 77 games in 2007-2008. Maybe Cory wouldn't have been ready for 77, but 65? That's what it might have taken to get in. Cory's numbers are pretty similar to Brodeur's from that season where they finished 26th in scoring.

 

Exactly the point of the thread.

 

You keep bringing up Minnesota and LA but to play devils' advocate (figuratively) the Kings have 96 points, the Wild have 94 and we have 86.  The Kings have eight shootout wins, the Wild have seven - without those points it'd be dead even.  Goaltending wasn't the issue in the shootout where we were sub-10% for the year (basically 3% until the last shootout).

 

 

Right, the shootout was another huge problem. However, being as close as we are without winning one, if we didn't play a goalie with a save percentage of .900 37 games, I tend to believe we would have been able to do it without the shoot out.

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Anyone blaming Cory for even 1% of this team's problems this year is delusional. Marty was a big problem, especially since we can control whether or not we start him. Lack of scoring, blowing leads, and shootouts were also clearly a problem. Subtract any single one of those from the equation and we're in the playoffs. 

This point really says it all.  Particularly, the part in bold.  Marty resigned himself to the backup role very early in the season and it was Deboer who said not so fast...  Lou and PDB are the reasons the Devils are where they are today.  Not Martin Brodeur.

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This point really says it all.  Particularly, the part in bold.  Marty resigned himself to the backup role very early in the season and it was Deboer who said not so fast...  Lou and PDB are the reasons the Devils are where they are today.  Not Martin Brodeur.

I suppose you could look at it that way, but then again all Marty did was grumble about how he's not playing enough. I think Lou really handcuffed Deboer. Does he sit Marty and forever be known as the guy who chased Brodeur out of Jersey and everything that goes along with it (losing the locker room)? We saw what happens when he decides to treat Brodeur as the 1B and it isn't pretty.

 

Please Lou, let Marty walk, sign a generic back up goaltender (Bryz, Gustavsson) and be done with it.

 

Edit - Changed the title of the thread, more accurately depicting my view 

Edited by Devils Pride 26

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When did I say it has nothing to do with the goalie?

 

You clearly state blaming broduer is nonsense, and then list 3 things none of which are the goalie.

 

What's so funny is everything you list was not in the control of the team, they can't help who they are.

We could have played the better goalie more and won more games, we didn't, that was in the control of the team.

 

 

Why cant you see that

 

A) your statement was constructed in a way where you say broduer isn't at fault

 

B) That if we played our best player in the most important position on the ice more often than an over the hill 40 something broduer, we'd have the few more wins required to get into the playoffs.

 

 

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This point really says it all.  Particularly, the part in bold.  Marty resigned himself to the backup role very early in the season and it was Deboer who said not so fast...  Lou and PDB are the reasons the Devils are where they are today.  Not Martin Brodeur.

 

That's not what changed things in November though.  Cory lost a couple games after he got the starting job, and then got a minor injury that put him out a few games and that's when Marty got hot.

Edited by NJDevs4978

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This Blame-Marty is non-sense.

 

What killed us this year were (in order):

 

1. Our inability to score in shootouts. if we were 50% W, we'd be in the playoffs and this thread would not exist.

2. Our inability to score 5-5. Shut out too many times and we can't score even on backups and the other teams know it. (Blame Lou for having old scorers that can't score)

3. Our inability (blame the coach) to protect 3rd period and 2 goal leads. How many times do I have to see Zidlicy pinching down while we are up 3-1 or Jagr taking late 3rd period lazy shifts when we have the lead?

 

Mucho importante!

Recall the beginning of the season with those leads on Edmonton, Van, Calgary etc. Add to that the countless dreaded 3-1 leads we blew against for example, NYR and FLA.

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46 games decided by one goal. Sure, its all Marty's fault. Not the fact that we can't score. 

 

 

do we need to spell it out? When you play that many close games, you can't play a goalie who's barely at .900. It's not gonna change every game, but if it changed or even gots points in an extra 5, we're in the playoffs 

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I just knew this post was coming.

 

Yeah it has nothing to do with getting shutout ten times, not being able to score a goal in 9 of 11 shootouts, Ryder scoring one goal in three months yet still being third on the team in goals while a 42 year old is our leading scorer or Cory dropping the ball just about every time they tried to give it to him to run with.

 

This. One person started the "it's mainly Marty's fault" line and a bunch of posters have jumped on the wagon thinking it will make them sound smart. I like the way SI puts it:

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nhl/news/20140408/nhl-power-rankings-week-25/#ixzz2yLgji6cg

 

A seven-game point streak had Devils fans likening their long shot to Lloyd Christmas's hopes of landing Mary Swanson in Dumb and Dumber, but any real chance the team had of making the playoffs ended with Monday night's 1-0 loss to the Flames. Much will (and should) be made of the Devils' failure to steal the second point in shootouts all season long, but it was their inability to score during the 65 minutes of real hockey that submarined their hopes. When you average just 2.42 goals per game (25th in the league), you're not doing enough to win on a consistent basis.

 

 

Edited by Neb00rs

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Please don't threaten me with your mod privileges. I didn't insult you. I said this post reminds me of Brodeur fanboys. If you want to nix me, that be a shame, but go for it it, sir. 

 

I'll disagree again and say Jagr is not worn out or anymore worn out than any other player on the team. He's healthy. At the very least that's way more than almost half the forwards. He continues to lead the Devils in shots on goal. He was fine last night.

 

You could argue Brodeur is the reason that the Devils score more goals when Marty is in net, power to you. I'll disagree with that as well, though. Just a fluke coincidence that would would see the gap shrink if more games were played. I think Marshall had crunched some numbers, and the Devils don't have much of an advantage in offensive zone time or shots directed in nets with either goalie in net. But sure you could come up with some "theoretical nonsense" as well.

 

Your hate for Marty has actually gotten so extreme that sadly, anyone who doesn't agree that Marty was the central reason for this team's downfall is now going to be labeled a 'Marty fanboy' by you. The truth is that there is a reasonable way to hold Marty accountable for his play this year and an illogical one with only speculation to provide why Marty was our ruining this year. It's all based on an 'if' and a useless 'if' IF that. It is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO fitting that this team basically got eliminated on a night where Marty didn't even play and the team scored no goals.

 

At that point it's like "DR33 isn't seriously going to try and perpetuate his wild Marty accusations tonight is he?" And then, there you are! Ready to attack sans shame. Let's ignore everything else and stick to the "Marty has killed us" line.

 

Let me predict your response: It will be something along the lines of accusing me of thinking only the number of wins Marty has matter, accusing me of thinking Cory is equal to Marty, or telling me that I am satisfied with NJ not making the playoffs this year. 

 

See, the thing is, I don't devote myself to deep analytic hockey analysis. If you presented a valid and reasonable argument that could convince me of the notions that you are presenting, I might be obliged to get on board. But you haven't, you actually haven't convinced much of anyone. So, now the response is to call us 'fanboys', because we don't blindly accept your fervent Marty hatred.

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Your hate for Marty has actually gotten so extreme that sadly, anyone who doesn't agree that Marty was the central reason for this team's downfall is now going to be labeled a 'Marty fanboy' by you. The truth is that there is a reasonable way to hold Marty accountable for his play this year and an illogical one with only speculation to provide why Marty was our ruining this year. It's all based on an 'if' and a useless 'if' IF that. It is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO fitting that this team basically got eliminated on a night where Marty didn't even play and the team scored no goals.

 

At that point it's like "DR33 isn't seriously going to try and perpetuate his wild Marty accusations tonight is he?" And then, there you are! Ready to attack sans shame. Let's ignore everything else and stick to the "Marty has killed us" line.

 

Let me predict your response: It will be something along the lines of accusing me of thinking only the number of wins Marty has matter, accusing me of thinking Cory is equal to Marty, or telling me that I am satisfied with NJ not making the playoffs this year. 

 

See, the thing is, I don't devote myself to deep analytic hockey analysis. If you presented a valid and reasonable argument that could convince me of the notions that you are presenting, I might be obliged to get on board. But you haven't, you actually haven't convinced much of anyone. So, now the response is to call us 'fanboys', because we don't blindly accept your fervent Marty hatred.

 

1) I don't hate Marty. I didn't like hm playing. I didn't like him talking to the media constantly, especially before he starts a game with huge playoff implications talking about next season and where his kids want him to play. Let me ask you this: Do you think any coach, anyone in management and most importantly his teammates appreciated Marty talking about the possibility of playing somewhere else a day before a big hockey game? I bet everyone would be a little annoyed or disappointed.

 

2) In a 5-page thread, you immediately jump to me...even though I never made any crazy claim that Marty is the sole reason the Devils missed the playoffs or the main reason.

 

3) I'm done explaining anything to you. You don't need any analytic hockey analysis to see why Schneider is better than Brodeur. You know Cory is better so what do you want me to convince you of? Why are you replying to me? I didn't start the thread.

 

4) You say it is fitting that the Devils got eliminated 1-0 with Cory in net? I mean in a way it is. But not anymore fitting than them losing 5-4 with Brodeur in net. Or Brodeur getting a win after letting in 3 goals on 9 shots, and Schneider coming in, posting a scoreless game, and Marty getting the win.

Edited by devilsrule33
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I am not a boy, not a Brodeur fanboy and since I have mod privileges I am going to take exactly 0% personal insults, even by sideways reference before you get nixed. Please address each and everyone of my posts respectfully if you want to post here.

 

 

You are confused and reading things into my post that are not there for reasons I am unclear on. ..Just like you did with my Jagr is worn-out post (which is now seems to be turning out to be true)

 

We have given up several 2 goal leads, not only in the 3rd period. We have blown way too many 3rd period leads for a defense first team. I didn't say Marty was not at fault, but the idea of laying the blame squarely on him is silly. 

 

And people keep wondering why we score more goals for Marty. I could argue that when your goalie handles the puck as well as Marty it changes the confidence level and  offensive side of your game in many ways.

 

And then there's the extrapolating Corey's stats over Marty's games  and saying we would have given up 40 less goals. That's just theoretical nonsense.

 

I want to address the Jagr point first, because it's a classic case of someone patting themselves on the back for something that simply isn't true.  Jagr is crushing.  Absolutely crushing.  He's 'slowed down' in so far as he has stopped running hot - his line has stopped scoring as much as they did earlier in the year, but their scoring rate was unsustainable anyway.  The last 12 games, the Devils have 61% of the shots when he's on the ice 5 on 5.  They have 66.7% of the Corsi attempts.  That's as complete of a domination as you can get in today's NHL - players simply don't sustain those kinds of numbers except on ridiculously elite teams.  Is Jagr a 70 point player at this stage of his career playing with Zajac and Tuomo Ruutu?  No, probably not, but he is not 'slowing down'.  If anything he is speeding up.

 

Fine, 40 less goals is 'theoretical nonsense'.  Well of course, Schneider can't start 82 games.  But the fact is that NJ gives up .5 more goals a game when Brodeur starts.  And the Devils have not noticed this and have said to themselves well let's give Brodeur half the starts even though he gives up half a goal more, that can't hurt.

 

As for 3rd period leads - it's a fluke.  Nothing that can be done.  The trouble is that NJ doesn't lead by 2 enough.  They prevent shots just fine - 5 on 5 with a lead, they give up the fewest shots of anyone, even taking into account the Devils' scorer.  When you have a goalie as bad as Brodeur is, really anything can happen.

Edited by Triumph

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As for 3rd period leads - it's a fluke.  Nothing that can be done.  The trouble is that NJ doesn't lead by 2 enough.  They prevent shots just fine - 5 on 5 with a lead, they give up the fewest shots of anyone, even taking into account the Devils' scorer.  When you have a goalie as bad as Brodeur is, really anything can happen.

 

Columbus, Edmonton, Vancouver, Florida, etc...they blow two and three-goal leads just as much as they blow one-goal leads.  It's not a fluke when it's been a trend throughout Pete's three years here.

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Columbus, Edmonton, Vancouver, Florida, etc...they blow two and three-goal leads just as much as they blow one-goal leads.  It's not a fluke when it's been a trend throughout Pete's three years here.

This really isn't true. NJ plays close games because they can't score, but they also don't give up much.  When you play as many tight games as they do, these things happen. BTW, most of the games you named, Marty was in net for

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You clearly state blaming broduer is nonsense, and then list 3 things none of which are the goalie.

 

What's so funny is everything you list was not in the control of the team, they can't help who they are.

We could have played the better goalie more and won more games, we didn't, that was in the control of the team.

 

 

Why cant you see that

 

A) your statement was constructed in a way where you say broduer isn't at fault

 

B) That if we played our best player in the most important position on the ice more often than an over the hill 40 something broduer, we'd have the few more wins required to get into the playoffs.

 

I clearly did not. It was in answer to the thread title that said Brodeur was the biggest problem.. which he was not... and that was the point of my post which is correct.

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I want to address the Jagr point first, because it's a classic case of someone patting themselves on the back for something that simply isn't true.  Jagr is crushing.  Absolutely crushing.  He's 'slowed down' in so far as he has stopped running hot - his line has stopped scoring as much as they did earlier in the year, but their scoring rate was unsustainable anyway.  The last 12 games, the Devils have 61% of the shots when he's on the ice 5 on 5.  They have 66.7% of the Corsi attempts.  That's as complete of a domination as you can get in today's NHL - players simply don't sustain those kinds of numbers except on ridiculously elite teams.  Is Jagr a 70 point player at this stage of his career playing with Zajac and Tuomo Ruutu?  No, probably not, but he is not 'slowing down'.  If anything he is speeding up.

 

Fine, 40 less goals is 'theoretical nonsense'.  Well of course, Schneider can't start 82 games.  But the fact is that NJ gives up .5 more goals a game when Brodeur starts.  And the Devils have not noticed this and have said to themselves well let's give Brodeur half the starts even though he gives up half a goal more, that can't hurt.

 

As for 3rd period leads - it's a fluke.  Nothing that can be done.  The trouble is that NJ doesn't lead by 2 enough.  They prevent shots just fine - 5 on 5 with a lead, they give up the fewest shots of anyone, even taking into account the Devils' scorer.  When you have a goalie as bad as Brodeur is, really anything can happen.

 

Re Jagr: I have been to a lot of the games..that allows me to watch players away from the puck... putting numbers aside which is not at the heart of the matter IMHO.. The Jagr in the beginning of the year was aggressive, strong on the puck and played hard everywhere and putting himself in the places where you get lucky..The Jagr I saw at the Rock vs CGY last night was conserving ebergy everywhere..picking and choosing his spots.. he's definitely tired... and that is why the puck has stopped going in.

 

I believe we played the wrong strategy in 3rd periods with the lead. I saw it and predicted it numerous times.... like we forgot to try to get it in deep and defense needs to play defense. I think something could have been done and the coach is at fault. I have heard numerous people out here complain about Gionta being out there at the wrong times.. that is on the coach

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This Blame-Marty is non-sense.

 

that is a pretty clear statement saying that marty isn't to blame. Had you  gone on to say it is one of the reasons but there are others, maybe I'd see it how you think you typed it. But in reality you said this marty blame is nonsense and then listed reasons you thought the team didn't make the playoffs. In no way shape or form did you acknowledge in your post that you thought marty shared a lot of the blame or even a little of the blame. Which is the same as absolving him of any blame as far as I'm concerned especially with how ostentatious your claim that the marty blame is "nonsense" was, no disrespect but what's nonsense is many posters here ability to understand how martin broduer is among the worst goalies in the league right now, and that he is playing in place of literally one of the leagues best goalies.

 

 

I still have yet to see anyone talk about the fact we cant change the fact we can't score but we could have played a better goalie. It's fvcking INFURIATING how people don't get that you win by scoring more than the other team, not by scoring tons of goals. If we score 2.5 goals a game on average and let in 2 goals a game on average, we are probably going to be in decent shape. There is no way we were going to get more goals a game with our roster, but we could have given up less.

 

 

 

Re: Jagr, that was probably his best game in the latter half of the year, Don't know what your talking about. He was far and away the best devils forward last night especially the 3rd period. He sucks in the defensive zone a bit, but in the offensive zone he was an absolute monster, did everything but score.

Edited by Sneax

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1) I don't hate Marty. I didn't like hm playing. I didn't like him talking to the media constantly, especially before he starts a game with huge playoff implications talking about next season and where his kids want him to play. Let me ask you this? Do you think any coach, anyone in management and most importantly his teammates appreciated Marty talking about the possibility of playing somewhere else a day before a big hockey game? I bet everyone would be a little annoyed or disappointed.

 

2) In a 5-page thread, you immediately jump to me...even though I never made any crazy claim that Marty is the sole reason the Devils missed the playoffs or the main reason.

 

3) I'm done explaining anything to you. You don't need any analytic hockey analysis to see why Schneider is better than Brodeur. You know Cory is better so what do you want me to convince you of? Why are you replying to me? I didn't start the thread.

 

4) You say it is fitting that the Devils got eliminated 1-0 with Cory in net? I mean in a way it is. But not anymore fitting than them losing 5-4 with Brodeur in net. Or Brodeur getting a win after letting in 3 goals on 9 shots, and Schneider coming in, posting a scoreless game, and Marty getting the win.

 

1) I don't know how his teammates felt. I'm not going to speculate on that because its irrelevant anyways. I'm not worried about their feelings. He's also not making Lou or Pete do anything they don't want to do. Furthermore, the claims about Marty having a different set of rules for when he starts remain unfounded. You make weak connections between speculative evidence and the prior claim and ignore all the the evidence, in esse. Cory came in here and played 10 more games than he ever has before. When Marty was bad, he lost the co-role: twice. I don't have to repeat all this again, the accusations ya'll have made in this regard seem in every way completely untrue and you state it as if its fact. It hasn't been mind-boggling at all why Marty has played when he has played this year. You don't hate Marty? I know you've said this before but it sure seems like it, you have bashed him on every level this year day in and day out and have killed Marty's last moments here for me.

 

2) I jump to you for obvious reasons.You have been the king and prime operator of the OP's post. I might be wrong, but I think without you this post never gets made. People respect what you have to say on this board and I think they'v jumped behind you here. I could argue with Triumph here too  (and I do) but you have been way more extreme than he has (I will happily engage him instead if you'd like). 

 

3) This is the straw man I've been talking about. My only point there was that I AM willing to here arguments towards your side. I can't make you believe that though. Also, you KNOW I have made my support for Cory clear and that he is the better goalie AND that I want him to start. My issue is clearly with the focus of the blame for this season.

 

4) It is fitting because of the claims made by you and others that Marty is the main reason the Devils will miss the playoffs this year. Even with Cory playing tremendously it didn't help anything, because the offense couldn't produce and players like Michael Ryder failed in their one role.

 

This Blame-Marty is non-sense.

 

that is a pretty clear statement saying that marty isn't to blame. Had you  gone on to say it is one of the reasons but there are others, maybe I'd see it how you think you typed it. But in reality you said this marty blame is nonsense and then listed reasons you thought the team didn't make the playoffs. In no way shape or form did you acknowledge in your post that you thought marty shared a lot of the blame or even a little of the blame. Which is the same as absolving him of any blame as far as I'm concerned especially with how ostentatious your claim that the marty blame is "nonsense" was, no disrespect but what's nonsense is many posters here ability to understand how martin broduer is among the worst goalies in the league right now, and that he is playing in place of literally one of the leagues best goalies.

 

That's ludicrous. The idea being presented in this thread is that Marty is the main party to blame for the Devils woes this year. Msweet never said Marty didn't have a hand in the matter. 

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Re Jagr: I have been to a lot of the games..that allows me to watch players away from the puck... putting numbers aside which is not at the heart of the matter IMHO.. The Jagr in the beginning of the year was aggressive, strong on the puck and played hard everywhere and putting himself in the places where you get lucky..The Jagr I saw at the Rock vs CGY last night was conserving ebergy everywhere..picking and choosing his spots.. he's definitely tired... and that is why the puck has stopped going in.

 

I believe we played the wrong strategy in 3rd periods with the lead. I saw it and predicted it numerous times.... like we forgot to try to get it in deep and defense needs to play defense. I think something could have been done and the coach is at fault. I have heard numerous people out here complain about Gionta being out there at the wrong times.. that is on the coach

 

Must be awesome to conserve energy and be able to get off 2 out of every 3 shot attempts against the other team's best players.  What a legend.

 

Gionta is 4th in the league among forwards in shots against (13th in road shots against).  I've also heard numerous people complaining and been one of them at times but that line can really stifle the other team's shots (whether they get any of their own is up for debate).  He's grown into a player that I think is just fine out there in a situation like that.

Edited by Triumph

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This Blame-Marty is non-sense.

 

that is a pretty clear statement saying that marty isn't to blame. Had you  gone on to say it is one of the reasons but there are others, maybe I'd see it how you think you typed it. But in reality you said this marty blame is nonsense and then listed reasons you thought the team didn't make the playoffs. In no way shape or form did you acknowledge in your post that you thought marty shared a lot of the blame or even a little of the blame. Which is the same as absolving him of any blame as far as I'm concerned especially with how ostentatious your claim that the marty blame is "nonsense" was, no disrespect but what's nonsense is many posters here ability to understand how martin broduer is among the worst goalies in the league right now, and that he is playing in place of literally one of the leagues best goalies.

 

 

I still have yet to see anyone talk about the fact we cant change the fact we can't score but we could have played a better goalie. It's fvcking INFURIATING how people don't get that you win by scoring more than the other team, not by scoring tons of goals. If we score 2.5 goals a game on average and let in 2 goals a game on average, we are probably going to be in decent shape. There is no way we were going to get more goals a game with our roster, but we could have given up less.

 

 

 

Re: Jagr, that was probably his best game in the latter half of the year, Don't know what your talking about. He was far and away the best devils forward last night especially the 3rd period. He sucks in the defensive zone a bit, but in the offensive zone he was an absolute monster, did everything but score.

 

 

"This Blame-Marty is non-sense." was under the context of this thread that Marty is the main cause. 

Why are you insisting you know what I meant? I explained it but somehow you seem to want to take a convenient view of my thoughts..as if you know them better than me. What's your point? This is not a court of law where you try to twist what people say to try and prove your point ..this it is a discussion forum. 

 

Marty is not the main reason we did not make the playoffs and that is the point of this thread. I introduced other ideas and that has lead to a robust discussion..and that's what we do sometimes to make the threads more lively and last longer

 

 

And Tri, I understand your penchant for using an in depth knowledge of statistics to make your point but success in sports has something to do with intangibles. I stand by my claim about Jagr.from what I have observed in person.

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For however well Jagr might be playing it is valid to point out that he has no points in 8 out of his last 9 games. He hasn't faced that kind of drought all season, and he probably does have less in the tank now than at game 60. However, his drop off was sudden and I think its more akin to a slump than anything. He is still putting shots on net but he is not creating goals whatever that means. Yet, through all that he is still our best offensive player - that shows you how terrible our offense has been.

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Sooooo...basically because you were proven wrong about something and now don't want to admit it (your implication that Marty was constantly playing on bad offensive teams), you're lumping middle-of-the-pack offensive teams in with poor ones to try to make your (faulty) point and making sh!t up. 

 

The teams that you can rightly list as poor offensively during Brodeur's prime (I think it fully ended with the conclusion of the 2012 playoffs):

 

'95-'96, '01-'02, '05-'06, '06-'07, '07-'08, '09-'10, '10-'11.

 

The rest were middle-of-the-pack or higher.  So 11 out of 18 teams were at least average offensively, and 6 out of those 18 teams were ranked 20th or worse...which I hate to break it to you, is NOT "more often than not".  Don't make things up, especially when the numbers are right there that shows that's exactly what you're doing.

Wow, arrogant much?  Can you have a discussion without insinuating that I'm wrong or making sh!t up?    How was I "proven wrong", and what am I "making up"?  You're right, the numbers are right in front of you and, unlike you, I actually gave an explanation, using said numbers, for what I considered to be poor offensive seasons.   It's not even hard to see, it is so glaringly obvious.  Forget about being in the top 1/3 of the league as I mentioned before (which is what I would consider "good", or better yet, "not poor"), looking back on the numbers it's actually even much sadder than that --pretty much the last time we were even in the TOP FIFTY fvckING PERCENT of the league in total goal production was our 2nd Cup in the year 2000!  (Ok, so in 2002-2003 we were barely in the top half of the league, at 14th, whoop-dee-fvcking-doo.)  Fifteen damn years have gone by, a decade and a half.  In many cases that could be a player's (or in this case goalie's) whole career.

 

Even if you didn't want to use numbers, there's a reason why other teams and fans hate us, and say we play "boring " hockey.  Even after the 2nd lockout in 05 and some of the new rules, we did, and even partly still do, employ the trap as our underlying strategy.  Sure it leads to a nice turnover-induced goal here and there, but that in and of itself, again stats aside, is evidence of an offensively-handicapped team too.  And it's been that way for a long, long time.

 

Anyway, agree to disagree -- part of me hopes this team stays the same next year so that we can see what Cory does with it playing behind them for 60+ games, but of course the true fan in me hopes it drastically changes so that we have a better chance of making the playoffs.    We'll see.

Edited by NJDfan1711

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This. One person started the "it's mainly Marty's fault" line and a bunch of posters have jumped on the wagon thinking it will make them sound smart. I like the way SI puts it:

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nhl/news/20140408/nhl-power-rankings-week-25/#ixzz2yLgji6cg

 

Thank you.  I've basically become a troll because the completely insane groupthink that's going on here has turned this place into almost nj.com-like cesspool levels.  I'm not the blind Marty fanboy I paint myself out to be, but I'm not ignorant enough to blame him for all the team's problems.  This team sucks, pure and simple.  I hope wherever Marty goes next year, Jagr goes with him.

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Wow, arrogant much?  Can you have a discussion without insinuating that I'm wrong or making sh!t up?    How was I "proven wrong", and what am I "making up"?  You're right, the numbers are right in front of you and, unlike you, I actually gave an explanation, using said numbers, for what I considered to be poor offensive seasons.   It's not even hard to see, it is so glaringly obvious.  Forget about being in the top 1/3 of the league as I mentioned before (which is what I would consider "good", or better yet, "not poor"), looking back on the numbers it's actually even much sadder than that --pretty much the last time we were even in the TOP FIFTY fvckING PERCENT of the league in total goal production was our 2nd Cup in the year 2000!  (Ok, so in 2002-2003 we were barely in the top half of the league, at 14th, whoop-dee-fvcking-doo.)  Fifteen damn years have gone by, a decade and a half.  In many cases that could be a player's (or in this case goalie's) whole career.

 

Even if you didn't want to use numbers, there's a reason why other teams and fans hate us, and say we play "boring " hockey.  Even after the 2nd lockout in 05 and some of the new rules, we did, and even partly still do, employ the trap as our underlying strategy.  Sure it leads to a nice turnover-induced goal here and there, but that in and of itself, again stats aside, is evidence of an offensively-handicapped team too.  And it's been that way for a long, long time.

 

Anyway, agree to disagree -- part of me hopes this team stays the same next year so that we can see what Cory does with it playing behind them for 60+ games, but of course the true fan in me hopes it drastically changes so that we have a better chance of making the playoffs.    We'll see.

 

I already proved my point.  I can see that there is such a thing as very good, good, average, poor, etc.  You apparently cannot.  Saying the Devils have had a poor offensive team 73% of time in the 18-year sample I pointed out is absolutely making sh!t up.  I showed conclusively that in 11 out of 18 years (61% of the time), the Devils' offense output was average or better in ranking.  Anything not top 3rd, apparently you consider that "poor", which is ridiculous, but that's you trying to shoehorn a faulty point where it doesn't work, instead of simply admitting you were mistaken in your assumptions.  I'm guessing you probably thought the Devils were bottom-10 far more than they turned out to be (because you didn't take the time to actually do the research), got shown conclusively with numbers not open to interpretation that it wasn't nearly as often as you assumed it would be, and now for some reason you can't admit that you were wrong about it.  Your problem, not mine. 

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