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RizzMB30

Embellishment in the NHL

35 posts in this topic

http://blogs.northjersey.com/blogs/fireice/comments/schneider_says_no_demands_about_playing_time_in_extension_talk_helps_with_competition_committee/

 

"There was also talk of cracking down on embellishment, which has become a popular topic again during the playoffs."

I was reading this whole article and I think this an important thing for the NHL and the players to address.  Retired players who played in the league before the lockout and earlier would be disgusted by how much it has become a part of the game.  Penalties are NOT there to give the the advantage of a powerplay, they are there to act as a deterrent for bad behavior or unfair play.  Hockey is not soccer, it's suppose to rival football in how much toughness and spirit is needed to play the game.  Yes, the issue is touchy because it puts more judgement calls into the hands of a referee, however, this is the job of a referee.  They are there to make sure the integrity and fairness of the game remain.  It's their job to make judgement calls.  Embellishment encourages slacking off.  The idea of drawing a penalty stems from a player outworking or outsmarting an opponent.  It needs to stop and referees need to understand that this issue is changing the way the game is played. 

Disagree? Opinions and Thoughts? 

Below I will leave this, NHL Execs on embellishment
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2014/06/11/to-attack-embellishment-nhl-wants-to-bring-alive-old-rule/
 

Edited by RizzMB30

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It would be easier for you to change the original post. The other post had an earlier d/t/s and 2 links. Confused.

Edited by StarDew

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It would be easier for you to change the original post. The other post had an earlier d/t/s and 2 links. Confused

I know, I apologize.  It's fixed now.  All better.  Please discuss, I think it's an important topic. 

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I know, I apologize.  It's fixed now.  All better.  Please discuss, I think it's an important topic.

It's all good. :)

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this would be good, tired of seeing some players tripping themselves down to the ice when theyve been barely touched at all

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Embellishment should be penalized by a three minute minor. You heard it here first. If there is a corresponding two minute minor to the opposing player, his team will nevertheless go on the pp for one minute. This should take care if any and all incentives to embellish. It's a far shot, but I like the way it sounded in my head.

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Embellishment should be penalized by a three minute minor. You heard it here first. If there is a corresponding two minute minor to the opposing player, his team will nevertheless go on the pp for one minute. This should take care if any and all incentives to embellish. It's a far shot, but I like the way it sounded in my head.

I'd back this idea, especially when a 4th liner dives and puts your best D man in the box for interference or holding etc

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Embellishment should be penalized by a three minute minor. You heard it here first. If there is a corresponding two minute minor to the opposing player, his team will nevertheless go on the pp for one minute. This should take care if any and all incentives to embellish. It's a far shot, but I like the way it sounded in my head.

this is the type of radical change that needs to be made, but I think that the issue really is not so much the refs letting diving slide as it is they genuinely don't see it or aren't confident enough to make the call. Thus the only way it could effectively be eliminated is with replay- handing out suspensions from the player discipline office like they would an illegal hit.

Also a line should be drawn between embellishing (overreacting to a legitimate penalty to help the ref make the call) and diving (trying to buy a penalty when there clearly isn't one). I honestly have no problem with simple embellishment- IMO nearly half of legitimate penalties only get called based on the ref seeing the players reaction. Things like high sticks, hooking and slashing would be called a lot less if players were not allowed any room to sell the call.

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Just call 2 minutes for diving on a routine basis and that's it. Don't call anything on the other guy. Hopefully the guys would learn fast.

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Also a line should be drawn between embellishing (overreacting to a legitimate penalty to help the ref make the call) and diving (trying to buy a penalty when there clearly isn't one). I honestly have no problem with simple embellishment- IMO nearly half of legitimate penalties only get called based on the ref seeing the players reaction. Things like high sticks, hooking and slashing would be called a lot less if players were not allowed any room to sell the call.

I doubt this.  You play through it.  If you actually get hit in the face with a stick, it's normal human reaction to put your hand to your face and hold your face.  It's a matter of honesty I think.  If you're an honest, hard-working player....you fight through hooks, you fight through slashes, you fight through cross-checks.  THROUGH that fighting is how you draw penalties.  It should never be the intention of drawing a penalty. 

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I doubt this. You play through it. If you actually get hit in the face with a stick, it's normal human reaction to put your hand to your face and hold your face. It's a matter of honesty I think. If you're an honest, hard-working player....you fight through hooks, you fight through slashes, you fight through cross-checks. THROUGH that fighting is how you draw penalties. It should never be the intention of drawing a penalty.

no doubt there are such things as legitimate reactions, but personally I feel as though there are plenty of instances where a player overreacts to a penalty to make sure the ref sees it. Plenty of stick taps to the chin result in whiplash equivalent to driving 40 into a brick wall. This is what IMO is embellishment and should be legal.

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How about this idea: NHL players should put on their big boy shorts and stop playing like a bunch of MLS or NBA pussies.

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The refs can only do so much when trying to determine if "embellishment" or "diving" occurred during a split-second call.   The NHL should take the NBA model and put some more teeth behind it:

 

- NHL offices review all potential "dives"

- First offense:  Maximum fine per CBA (1/2 a day's salary, up to $10k)

- Second offense:  One game suspension

- Third offense:  Five game suspension

 

Start taking money out of the player's wallet & sitting them down for a game.  That'll get the message across real quick.

Edited by Z-Man

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How about this idea: NHL players should put on their big boy shorts and stop playing like a bunch of MLS or NBA pussies.

 

To the MLS' credit, they're a bit better on the embellishment side of things. The Spanish, Mexican, and Italian leagues are pretty awful. MLS is known for being a little less skilled play but more physical, hopefully that doesn't change.

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The refs can only do so much when trying to determine if "embellishment" or "diving" occurred during a split-second call.   The NHL should take the NBA model and put some more teeth behind it:

 

- NHL offices review all potential "dives"

- First offense:  Maximum fine per CBA (1/2 a day's salary, up to $10k)

- Second offense:  One game suspension

- Third offense:  Five game suspension

 

Start taking money out of the player's wallet & sitting them down for a game.  That'll get the message across real quick.

I posted something similar in the other thread, but basically i agree with this.

I hate the idea of needing officials to make split second calls on what is and what is not a dive / embellishment. It should only be punished when it's clear on replay, and when it is, punishments should be swift and brutal in the form of fines and suspensions, not in game play.

It's too subjective to be called live, if you take a stick to the face you are naturally going to grab your head, even if it's not a bad hit.

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Embellishment should be penalized by a three minute minor. You heard it here first. If there is a corresponding two minute minor to the opposing player, his team will nevertheless go on the pp for one minute. This should take care if any and all incentives to embellish. It's a far shot, but I like the way it sounded in my head.

I like this, but I think the problem is also solved if refs are instructed that if there is an embelishment penalty there should be NO penalty to the other team.

 

The matching penalties is just dumb

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Kings, specifically Brown and Doughty, were flopping all series.  It's frankly embarrassing for the sport..wish the refs would just call it.

 

It'd be hard to just call a dive and not, say, the trip that caused it.  But I wouldn't be against calling a 2 minute minor for tripping, and a 4 minute double minor for diving.  

 

Player that committed the penalty still sits, but the result is still a net penalty against the player that dove.

 

Harsh but it'd probably crack down on the diving substantially.  Also would open up the refs to a lot more criticism I guess..

Edited by Devilsfan118

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I posted something similar in the other thread, but basically i agree with this.

I hate the idea of needing officials to make split second calls on what is and what is not a dive / embellishment. It should only be punished when it's clear on replay, and when it is, punishments should be swift and brutal in the form of fines and suspensions, not in game play.

It's too subjective to be called live, if you take a stick to the face you are naturally going to grab your head, even if it's not a bad hit.

The human brain is wired to recognize patterns and fill in the blanks even when they don't happen. Stick is near the legs, you blink or are at a bad angle, and the guy falls down. Your brain puts that together as oh the guy tripped him. Until we evolve out of that its just how it happens. I agree that a post game solution would probably be the fairest because you already have the refs call it on the ice and they're afraid to do so because who wants to call a legitimate foul a dive?

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It's all easier said than done. A player dives inherently to fool the ref. Saying you "wish the refs would just call more diving penalties" is seeing past the whole issue. They do it because it's so hard to see it so many times within the high speed of the game of hockey.

 

Like many are saying, it should be reviewable after the fact and fineable, and suspendable after a certain amount of infractions. Without that, sure, you can tell the refs to keep their eyes open, but the flipside is you'll also start seeing non-dives getting called as penalties more often too, because they'll be paranoid/on high-alert. Their jobs are hard enough, now you're giving them extra work to do?

 

Reviewing and penalizing of embellishments after the fact makes the most sense. Players will stop once a few high profile players/plays are made examples of. Imagine a Doughty or a Lundqvist being suspended for a game in the Stanley Cup Finals because of an embellishment? You'll see diving go away super fast...

Edited by DJ Eco

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I thought that Nash Doughty and Plekanec were the worst offenders this postseason.

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The refs can only do so much when trying to determine if "embellishment" or "diving" occurred during a split-second call.   The NHL should take the NBA model and put some more teeth behind it:

 

- NHL offices review all potential "dives"

- First offense:  Maximum fine per CBA (1/2 a day's salary, up to $10k)

- Second offense:  One game suspension

- Third offense:  Five game suspension

 

Start taking money out of the player's wallet & sitting them down for a game.  That'll get the message across real quick.

 

Yes i completely agree and AT LEAST if a guy has been fined well they'd have a reputation "on paper" so then if refs calls them out on dives... its their fault if its a bad call after all.

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Once again, I stand firmly behind my position that the referees NEED TO BE ABLE TO CONSULT EACH OTHER (and the linesman, too!) during the game, especially after questionable penalty calls. Front ref calls a trip, back ref comes up and says, "I had a better angle, there is no question it was a dive." Call the freaking dive, not the trip!

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Alternative:

Let's say a ref calls a trip on player A after player B dives.

 

Why can't someone from above call down, signal to the referees and say "hey, call player B for a diving minor/double minor"

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They should be able to review, as it's hard to differentiate real and false at this type of speee. BUT least it isn't as bad as the NBA with PBJ flopping like a fish out of water on one side of the court with a player not in sight lol.

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Nah, I don't like the idea of reviewing penalties, opens pandora's box. If you start throwing out suspensions, players will learn quick, and it gives the league a chance to punish only egregious offenders (which are the only problem anyway) and not accidentally punish players who legitimately tripped or had a reason to grab their face. Ice is slippery, sometimes a player looks like he is taking a dive when he really just lost his footing.

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