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A World Without Schneider


mfitz804

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Given the season that Bo Horvat is having, I started thinking what our team would look like if we never traded that pick for Cory and we drafter Horvat ourselves. I am NOT thinking about whether or not the trade SHOULD have been made, only about what we'd look like in goal if it wasn't. 

Would KK be our starter? Was someone else available we could have picked up?

If this trade was never made, who is between the pipes?

Discuss. 

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Tough one.  Maybe Lou goes after Jonathan Bernier instead?  He was traded to the Leafs a week before Schneider was dealt to the Devils. 

Can't see KK ever making it as a full-time starter in the NHL...or the Devils ever giving him that chance. 

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I recall reading that the best guess is that the Devils would have selected Domi.  Good player, but not the type that can turn a team around on his own, or at least not yet.

If there's no trade for Schneider, the best bet is that Lou would have gone with Hedberg and Marty for the '13-14 season.  However, it wouldn't have mattered for draft position since they didn't have their first that year.  We do know that whoever was the replacement after that would not have been nearly as good as Schneider was in '14-15 and '15-16, which means that the Devils would have had a better shot at McDavid and Matthews/Laine.  But even if you managed to get one of those players, even McDavid, it's doubtful that the Devils are a playoff team now since there's still a dearth of talent at forward.

Bottom line, if you want to pin the Devils predicament on one move, it's definitely keeping the first round pick in 2012.  Decent chance that the Devils would have Dylan Larkin if not for that.  Then, you don't have to feel as compelled to take a forward in later drafts when defensemen like Werenski and Provorov. 

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2 hours ago, Martyisth3b3st said:

I honestly believe that if we hadn't acquired Schneider, McDavid, Eichel, Matthews, or Laine would be a Devil. 

I would have thought that just about all of us have pondered this at some point. Basically the only thing between 9th-10th place Devils and all the way bottom Devils has been Schneider.

Edited by NJDevils1214
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I would have thought that just about all of us have pondered this at some point. Basically the only thing between 9th-10th place Devils and all the way bottom Devils has been Schneider.

This was all part of Lou's master plan to land Matthews for himself in Toronto. [emoji14]


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3 hours ago, Martyisth3b3st said:

I honestly believe that if we hadn't acquired Schneider, McDavid, Eichel, Matthews, or Laine would be a Devil. 

With the exception of McDavid, we'd still be a crappy team with any of those players, especially since you'd have to assume that the goaltending would be awful.

The killer was holding on to the 2012 pick.  One day I'd like to hear Lou give an honest explanation as to why he kept it.  If it was simply some belief in time value of draft picks, I'll be pretty annoyed.  Although I guess no explanation will be satisfactory as 2012 is looking to be a pretty crappy draft.

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1 hour ago, Daniel said:

With the exception of McDavid, we'd still be a crappy team with any of those players, especially since you'd have to assume that the goaltending would be awful.

The killer was holding on to the 2012 pick.  One day I'd like to hear Lou give an honest explanation as to why he kept it.  If it was simply some belief in time value of draft picks, I'll be pretty annoyed.  Although I guess no explanation will be satisfactory as 2012 is looking to be a pretty crappy draft.

Yeah and then we wasted it on Stephane Matteau's kid? Really? That guy?? It was borderline traitorous to even put "Matteau" on the back of a Devils jersey!!!!

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2 hours ago, Daniel said:

With the exception of McDavid, we'd still be a crappy team with any of those players, especially since you'd have to assume that the goaltending would be awful.

The killer was holding on to the 2012 pick.  One day I'd like to hear Lou give an honest explanation as to why he kept it.  If it was simply some belief in time value of draft picks, I'll be pretty annoyed.  Although I guess no explanation will be satisfactory as 2012 is looking to be a pretty crappy draft.

I have wondered about this to. After an improbable run to the finals and 29th spot in the draft how in the world could that not be the one to forfeit. Lou always thought he was the smartest guy in the room and he was often right but he sure didn't prove to be right with this ill advised decision. The best explanation I think is that he thought he could get this penalty lifted and would not have to forfeit a pick in any of the years.

 

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12 minutes ago, Antiquated Colorado Rockie said:

I have wondered about this to. After an improbable run to the finals and 29th spot in the draft how in the world could that not be the one to forfeit. Lou always thought he was the smartest guy in the room and he was often right but he sure didn't prove to be right with this ill advised decision. The best explanation I think is that he thought he could get this penalty lifted and would not have to forfeit a pick in any of the years.

 

And that's exactly what happened. So he's either lucky or a great GM. 

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And that's exactly what happened. So he's either lucky or a great GM. 

Yeah but the pick we got back was 30th overall, even though our pick would've been near the top 10 based off our finish in the standings. It was mentioned earlier, but we could've had Dylan Larkin if Lou had just done the right thing and surrendered 29.

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30 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

And that's exactly what happened. So he's either lucky or a great GM. 

Well, he succeeded but only in part. Unless I am mistaken, the first rounder they got in 2014 was the pick #30 when they should have got pick #11. Would have been better off forfeiting pick #29 and be done with it since that was clearly as good as it was going to get.  They lost pick 11 for picks 29 and 30 which is a loss.  You trade pick 29 and 30 at the draft and you'd be lucky to get pick 20 or so.

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 In 2012-2013 up until July '13, Lou was in "retooling" mode. The team was being built around Kovalchuk and the idea that making playoffs where anything can happen based on 2012 was very much within reach. All the moves made clearly support this strategy

1) Keeping the 29th pick - if you plan on making the playoffs you project your pick next year to be say 20th-25th, not much difference. Yet, who knows maybe you can get super lucky with 29th for that pick to contribute soon enough 

2) Trading basically Bo Horvat for Schneider. It took Horvat till 2016-17 to really make a name for himself, meanwhile Schneider could have been the difference in 2012-13 between making and not making the playoffs so why not get him ahead of 2013-2014

3) Signing players Ryder and Clowe no rebuilding team would do that

Now the second Kovalchuk leaves - most of these moves don't make sense anymore (except maybe Schneider) but too late now - it becomes a scramble to patch up a competitive roster almost works for 2013-14 season but wheels fall off next year.

 

Edited by PacificDevil
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3 hours ago, mfitz804 said:

Yeah and then we wasted it on Stephane Matteau's kid? Really? That guy?? It was borderline traitorous to even put "Matteau" on the back of a Devils jersey!!!!

I'll disagree in that if Matteau turned into a good player for the Devils it would be the ultimate troll job on the Rangers.  Imagine his father, at a big game between the Rangers and Devils having to root for the Devils.  

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 In 2012-2013 up until July '13, Lou was in "retooling" mode. The team was being built around Kovalchuk and the idea that making playoffs where anything can happen based on 2012 was very much within reach. All the moves made clearly support this strategy

1) Keeping the 29th pick - if you plan on making the playoffs you project your pick next year to be say 20th-25th, not much difference. Yet, who knows maybe you can get super lucky with 29th for that pick to contribute soon enough 

2) Trading basically Bo Horvat for Schneider. It took Horvat till 2016-17 to really make a name for himself, meanwhile Schneider could have been the difference in 2012-13 between making and not making the playoffs so why not get him ahead of 2013-2014

3) Signing players Ryder and Clowe no rebuilding team would do that

Now the second Kovalchuk leaves - most of these moves don't make sense anymore (except maybe Schneider) but too late now - it becomes a scramble to patch up a competitive roster almost works for 2013-14 season but wheels fall off next year.

 

This a terrific post and you're right, that was the mindset. I think time always makes us look at things in hindsight with what we know now, but I remember when Parise left, as pissed off as I was, still thinking 'We still have Kovy and a decent supporting cast, it's possible to get hot and make a run again.' I mean NO ONE thought Kovalchuk was going anywhere until the moment we found out. I was STUNNED when I got that news (and it ruined my round of golf[emoji19]).

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I'll disagree in that if Matteau turned into a good player for the Devils it would be the ultimate troll job on the Rangers.  Imagine his father, at a big game between the Rangers and Devils having to root for the Devils.  

I had always hoped Matteau would somehow score a huge playoff goal against them. It would've been fun watching their fans' heads explode lol.


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Knowing Conte like we do, he would have convinced Lou to pick another Tedenby, Matteau, Corrente, Chatham.  Many folks here all sure he would've picked Horvat. Not likely.  

I'm so glad Lou pulled the trigger on the (Schneids) deal. Lou knows how valuable a #1 goalie brings.  Look at Philly's goaltending through the years, and so many other teams.

 

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2 hours ago, PacificDevil said:

 In 2012-2013 up until July '13, Lou was in "retooling" mode. The team was being built around Kovalchuk and the idea that making playoffs where anything can happen based on 2012 was very much within reach. All the moves made clearly support this strategy

1) Keeping the 29th pick - if you plan on making the playoffs you project your pick next year to be say 20th-25th, not much difference. Yet, who knows maybe you can get super lucky with 29th for that pick to contribute soon enough 

2) Trading basically Bo Horvat for Schneider. It took Horvat till 2016-17 to really make a name for himself, meanwhile Schneider could have been the difference in 2012-13 between making and not making the playoffs so why not get him ahead of 2013-2014

3) Signing players Ryder and Clowe no rebuilding team would do that

Now the second Kovalchuk leaves - most of these moves don't make sense anymore (except maybe Schneider) but too late now - it becomes a scramble to patch up a competitive roster almost works for 2013-14 season but wheels fall off next year.

 

I honestly believe it was a combo of this thinking and the belief that he'd somehow get out from under the punishment anyway (which, as some have mentioned, he sort of did) that resulted in us keeping the 29th pick. And I believe that it was some level of hubris that resulted in that pick being Matteau (though I vaguely remember thinking Matteau was a stretch, I look at the draft now in the late first/early second rounds and really all we missed out on there was Tanner Pearson a pick later, assuming we weren't picking a goalie like Stolarz that high).

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