'7' Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 I recall they actually got rid of Lo Duca because they thought he was a poor influence on Wright (as it was his career fell off a cliff post 2007 anyway and he only held on 1 more year) But supposedly Wright and Lo Duca would go out and party a lot This article goes on to mention Keith criticizing Beltran/Delgado as not doing enough during the 2007 June swoon. These two, while having periods of great production were never clubhouse leaders. Beltran played hard but was always staring longingly towards the Bronx. Delgado was just a salty character. Though he went on a monster tear the 2nd half of 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, '7' said: I recall they actually got rid of Lo Duca because they thought he was a poor influence on Wright (as it was his career fell off a cliff post 2007 anyway and he only held on 1 more year) But supposedly Wright and Lo Duca would go out and party a lot This article goes on to mention Keith criticizing Beltran/Delgado as not doing enough during the 2007 June swoon. These two, while having periods of great production were never clubhouse leaders. Beltran played hard but was always staring longingly towards the Bronx. Delgado was just a salty character. Though he went on a monster tear the 2nd half of 2008 My feelings about Beltran have never changed. He was a sabermetrician's wet dream as a Met (especially from 2006-2008...he missed too many games in years 5 and 6)...it was funny, I remember nmig being pretty critical of him in 2008, just before he became a born-again sabermetrician, then once he "converted", it was a total lovefest for all things Beltran from then on out (I wish nmig was come back here...he might even have a kid by now!). But there was always just something off about Beltran...just enough that he never quite connected with a lot of fans, or ever seemed like he was "ours"...by contrast, Wright even now still has fans that will defend his wanting to try to make a comeback. Beltran never seemed to be as good as his numbers suggested...he was just never a guy you had a lot of faith in, when it came to getting that big hit. I remember him hitting a HR late in a game to turn in a 12-5 deficit into 12-8, and thinking "Yep, that's Carlos." He felt like a merc to me...he really should've just re-signed with Astros, or gone to the Yankees. I have my issues with Wright, but at least Wright always gave the impression that he felt a real connection to the Mets. Beltran just kind of seemed to be here, if that makes any sense. Edited October 19, 2017 by Colorado Rockies 1976 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'7' Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 7 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said: My feelings about Beltran have never changed. He was a sabermetrician's wet dream as a Met (especially from 2006-2008...he missed too many games in years 5 and 6)...it was funny, I remember nmig being pretty critical of him in 2008, just before he became a born-again sabermetrician, then once he "converted", it was a total lovefest for all things Beltran from then on out (I wish nmig was come back here...he might even have a kid by now!). But there was always just something off about Beltran...just enough that he never quite connected with a lot of fans, or ever seemed like he was "ours"...by contrast, Wright even now still has fans that will defend his wanting to try to make a comeback. Beltran never seemed to be as good as his numbers suggested...he was just never a guy you had a lot of faith in, when it came to getting that big hit. I remember him hitting a HR late in a game to turn in a 12-5 deficit into 12-8, and thinking "Yep, that's Carlos." He felt like a merc to me...he really should've just re-signed with Astros, or gone to the Yankees. I have my issues with Wright, but at least Wright always gave the impression that he felt a real connection to the Mets. Beltran just kind of seemed to be here, if that makes any sense. Even before he became Babe Ruth, the only guy I ever had faith in getting a big hit for us was Murphy. He came up in late 2008 and was never a part of those good but tumultuous 2005-2007 teams and most of 08. But he was the guy who tripled ahead of Wright (who K'd after being up 3-0 in the count on 3 brutal pitches 2 feet off the plate) in that brutal home Cubs loss down the stretch It'll be interesting to see what happens when Beltran goes into the Hall will he wear the Mets hat on his bust or the blank hat (and will the mole be included on the bust) I think that will be telling as to what he really thought of his tenure here. I also think he was a bit shell-shocked coming to NY after playing in no pressure KC. Even that brief Houston run with the big playoff...you just can't compare the pressure Astros fans put on you compared with us and Yankee fans. He wasn't quite ready for the NYC microscope and I think if he went straight to the Yankees in 2005 he would've had a rough go of it initially as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, '7' said: Even before he became Babe Ruth, the only guy I ever had faith in getting a big hit for us was Murphy. He came up in late 2008 and was never a part of those good but tumultuous 2005-2007 teams and most of 08. But he was the guy who tripled ahead of Wright (who K'd after being up 3-0 in the count on 3 brutal pitches 2 feet off the plate) in that brutal home Cubs loss down the stretch It'll be interesting to see what happens when Beltran goes into the Hall will he wear the Mets hat on his bust or the blank hat (and will the mole be included on the bust) I think that will be telling as to what he really thought of his tenure here. I also think he was a bit shell-shocked coming to NY after playing in no pressure KC. Even that brief Houston run with the big playoff...you just can't compare the pressure Astros fans put on you compared with us and Yankee fans. He wasn't quite ready for the NYC microscope and I think if he went straight to the Yankees in 2005 he would've had a rough go of it initially as well. The bolded is VERY fair...if he turned in the same kind of 2005 season for the Yankees that he did for the Mets, those fans would've crucified him. As far as embracing the Mets and their fans, I don't think Beltran ever got over being booed very early in the 2006 season (when Julio Franco had to coax him out of the dugout to take a HR curtain call). He seemed to decide "Fine, I'm just going to show up and play, but that's it." Like I said, Beltran's 2006-08 seasons were beastly on paper (especially for a CF), but he just seemed so aloof and detached. And BTW the mole quip was fvcking hysterical. Edited October 19, 2017 by Colorado Rockies 1976 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 39 minutes ago, '7' said: Even before he became Babe Ruth, the only guy I ever had faith in getting a big hit for us was Murphy. He came up in late 2008 and was never a part of those good but tumultuous 2005-2007 teams and most of 08. But he was the guy who tripled ahead of Wright (who K'd after being up 3-0 in the count on 3 brutal pitches 2 feet off the plate) in that brutal home Cubs loss down the stretch It'll be interesting to see what happens when Beltran goes into the Hall will he wear the Mets hat on his bust or the blank hat (and will the mole be included on the bust) I think that will be telling as to what he really thought of his tenure here. I also think he was a bit shell-shocked coming to NY after playing in no pressure KC. Even that brief Houston run with the big playoff...you just can't compare the pressure Astros fans put on you compared with us and Yankee fans. He wasn't quite ready for the NYC microscope and I think if he went straight to the Yankees in 2005 he would've had a rough go of it initially as well. I also giggled at the above. I forgot you could have a blank cap on the plaque, that one will be interesting. Mets and KC are the only realistic options. But Beltran to me seems like the kind of guy who's going to have to wait to get into the Hall because he's going to hang around so long people mistakenly think he's a compiler, and because he's a bit under the radar in terms of the type of career he's had. He'll probably have to wait a few years till people realize, man he really put up those numbers - and without PED's? As far as CR's point about Beltran not getting much loyalty from Met fans cause of coming off like he didn't want to be here you see that now with Harvey. Met fans have always viewed him as someone who couldn't wait to leave the Mets so once there was a reason to jump off that bandwagon people trampled each other in droves, and Harvey hasn't exactly helped himself off the field either. At least Beltran never embarrassed the franchise though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, NJDevs4978 said: I also giggled at the above. I forgot you could have a blank cap on the plaque, that one will be interesting. Mets and KC are the only realistic options. But Beltran to me seems like the kind of guy who's going to have to wait to get into the Hall because he's going to hang around so long people mistakenly think he's a compiler, and because he's a bit under the radar in terms of the type of career he's had. He'll probably have to wait a few years till people realize, man he really put up those numbers - and without PED's? As far as CR's point about Beltran not getting much loyalty from Met fans cause of coming off like he didn't want to be here you see that now with Harvey. Met fans have always viewed him as someone who couldn't wait to leave the Mets so once there was a reason to jump off that bandwagon people trampled each other in droves, and Harvey hasn't exactly helped himself off the field either. At least Beltran never embarrassed the franchise though. I don't think Beltran should go in on the first ballot, but I don't see how he doesn't go in too long after that. His per 162 GP numbers are pretty damned impressive for a CF...not to mention that he could also field his position quite well. What's kind of odd is that I think that Beltran is kind of seen as an inevitable inductee, but Bernie Williams is a "no way"...Bernie's per 162 GP numbers are right up there with Beltran's (some are even better). Beltran won three Gold Gloves, Williams won four. Bernie put up a .937 OPS in his prime seasons...Beltran was at .874. Not saying that Williams should be in the HOF (I never thought of him that way), but it's just kind of funny how one guy is pretty close to being a slamdunk, while the other didn't even survive past the first ballot. Edited October 19, 2017 by Colorado Rockies 1976 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'7' Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) Williams could still hit when he retired at 37. In Williams case I think it would've actually helped him to stay on and compile a bit more. Maybe get up above 300hrs, 1300rbi and 2500+ hits He never had those massive HR and RBI years but did post some super high batting average numbers between 1995 and 2002. Plus he was a good center fielder and a key contributor during the Yankees dynasty in the playoffs. But not a Hall of Famer. Really he's just Garret Anderson who was lucky enough to end up on the Yankees. Edited October 19, 2017 by '7' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, '7' said: Williams could still hit when he retired at 37. In Williams case I think it would've actually helped him to stay on and compile a bit more. Maybe get up above 300hrs, 1300rbi and 2500+ hits He never had those massive HR and RBI years but did post some super high batting average numbers between 1995 and 2002. Plus he was a good center fielder and a key contributor during the Yankees dynasty in the playoffs. But not a Hall of Famer. Really he's just Garret Anderson who was lucky enough to end up on the Yankees. Yeah, Bernie's numbers for that 8-year period were pretty sick: 1143 GP, 5103 PA, 4402 AB, 837 RS, 1414 H, 260 2B, 41 3B, 194 HR, 813 RBI, 96 SB (51 CS), 636 BB, 674 K, .321/.406/.531 slash, .937 OPS, 142 OPS+ Per 162 GP (he averaged 143 GP per season over this time): 725 PA, 626 AB, 119 RS, 201 H, 37 2B, 6 3B, 28 HR, 116 RBI, 14 SB (8 CS), 91 BB, 96 K Beltran has averaged 1 HR per 25.36 PA; Williams was at 1 HR per 31.54 PA. Williams' problem was that he was pretty ordinary in his first four MLB seasons (not that shocking, in that he needed some development time) and in his last four MLB seasons (he was simply a very average hitter at that point (100+ OPS), and from what I remember, his OF play had really declined sharply as well). People sometimes make too much out of long-ball ability (Bernie was clearly a productive hitter even if he wasn't a sure 30+ HR guy), so I don't think it's fair to dock him points there...he really needed at least three more peak years to deserve a real case for the HOF though...he took a little too long to hit his stride, and then when he did, it wasn't for long enough. Beltran in some ways is almost Brodeur-like, in that his peak years (especially at the plate, with some fluctuation) lasted a long long time...basically from his age 24 season all the way to his age 39 season (his Rookie of the Year season at age 22 was a good one too, but not as good as many of his age 24-39 seasons: 2189 GP, 9323 PA, 8208 AB, 1349 RS, 2315 H, 489 2B, 64 3B, 392 HR, 1377 RBI, 269 SB (41 CS), 967 BB, 1489 K, .282/.357/.500 slash, .858 OPS, 125 OPS+ Per 162 GP (he averaged 137 GP per season over this time): 690 PA, 608 AB, 100 RS, 172 H, 37 2B, 5 3B, 30 HR, 102 RBI, 20 SB (4 CS), 72 BB, 111 K Williams was a better shorter-term all-around hitter, but when a guy like Beltran managed to do what he did for twice as long, and is still mostly solid almost right up until the end, it's easy to see why he's going to get in. Beltran put up OPS+s of 128, 127, 119 and 122 in four out his five seasons from age 35-39, as was at 120 OPS+ overall for these five seasons (he's at 119 OPS+ for his career)...by comparison, Williams was at just 100 OPS+ overall during his final four seasons, as mentioned previously. Beltran will get in through sheer consistency...at the plate, with a few exceptions, he was definitely that. Edited October 19, 2017 by Colorado Rockies 1976 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'7' Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Nationals fire Baker. So they've become a top desirable destination now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted October 20, 2017 Author Share Posted October 20, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, '7' said: Nationals fire Baker. So they've become a top desirable destination now. If you want one year with a good team sure, but Harper and Murphy going FA after next year isn't exactly ideal. Plus it's not exactly the most stable of manager jobs. Edited October 20, 2017 by NJDevs4978 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Just now, '7' said: Nationals fire Baker. So they've become a top desirable destination now. Guess that might be it for Dusty. If there's someone the Nats have in mind that the Mets really want, the Nats will win that battle...can't see Mr. Meek going the extra mile on that one. Just now, NJDevs4978 said: If you want one year with a good team sure, but Harper and Murphy going FA after next year isn't exactly ideal. Gotta think they find a way to retain at least one of them...what's their money situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted October 20, 2017 Author Share Posted October 20, 2017 The Nats can probably bring back Murphy though they always defer money on every contract. Harper and Boras probably want $504 million to double the A-Rod contract so unless he's willing to defer a lot of it I doubt he stays there. I actually wouldn't be against Dusty with the Mets especially considering his strength is managing a clubhouse and this team needs that. Of course Rip Van Sandy is not bringing in another old school guy under any circumstances when he can finally get his nameless faceless analytics guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Yeah, like I've said, whoever Passive brings in, it's going to be an uninteresting puppet hire. Team will be stuck in neutral for as long as Passive Uncreative keeps the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'7' Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Baker is 68 so it may very well be it. Watching his intensity these playoffs...he still really wants it (as a manager, he's won one as a player) I don't know he's just, basically Marty Schottenheimer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eaglejelly Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 A bit off topic, but baseball could really learn from hockey with the handshake line at the end of a seriesSent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted October 22, 2017 Author Share Posted October 22, 2017 Well about as well as could be hoped for considering the circumstances, at least it's not Long or Geren. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Didn't really hear much about Callahan as a candidate. I do like that it's someone complete outside the Met loop. Also that he's shown an ability to get pitchers to improve their performance. Can't knock this one. Has said it perfectly...this is about as good as we could have hoped for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'7' Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Not going to pretend to even know who Mickey Callaway is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 I keep wanting to call him Callahan and not Callaway. Sandy's getting some praise for not being uninspired and predictable...it's funny, wouldn't surprise me if he did this just to keep the "Yep, same ol Passive Uncreative" wolves at bay. But from what I've read, supposedly Callaway simply interviewed so well that he simply forced his way to the top of the list...that he simply blew away Sandy that much. Of course, once upon a time Art Howe blew away Fred "Say no more, you've already got the job" Wilpon...even though people were iffy on Howe the minute he was announced as the Mets' next manager. But based on early comments, it seems like the Calla-WAY hire makes sense...and I like that he's both young and not a retread...and apparently he's supposed to be very intelligent, which will be a welcome change from the mush-mouthed dope who preceded him (I know TC had positive traits, but man did he strike me as just not being very bright at all). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'7' Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 (edited) On 10/23/2017 at 11:13 AM, Colorado Rockies 1976 said: I keep wanting to call him Callahan and not Callaway. Sandy's getting some praise for not being uninspired and predictable...it's funny, wouldn't surprise me if he did this just to keep the "Yep, same ol Passive Uncreative" wolves at bay. But from what I've read, supposedly Callaway simply interviewed so well that he simply forced his way to the top of the list...that he simply blew away Sandy that much. Of course, once upon a time Art Howe blew away Fred "Say no more, you've already got the job" Wilpon...even though people were iffy on Howe the minute he was announced as the Mets' next manager. But based on early comments, it seems like the Calla-WAY hire makes sense...and I like that he's both young and not a retread...and apparently he's supposed to be very intelligent, which will be a welcome change from the mush-mouthed dope who preceded him (I know TC had positive traits, but man did he strike me as just not being very bright at all). I'll be calling him Mikey that I know for sure. He's got such a roaring 20's name. Like a character out of Gatsby Maybe just maybe he'll be a gem that we swooped up at the right time though I'm always worried about guys that have never managed a game in the bigs. Hey we're not the only one's, Boston is handing their ship over to Cora and that's no easy franchise to lead. I still remember either the Post or NY Daily News when the Mets hired Howe Lou-sers and Howe! He was so plain and milquetoast and uninspiring. Everything was so predictably by the book with him. Don't know how somebody like Art Howe could impress but who knows with Wilpon. He certainly was a safe choice. Like the managerial version of rice thins Edited October 26, 2017 by '7' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 (edited) On 10/26/2017 at 11:03 AM, '7' said: I'll be calling him Mikey that I know for sure. He's got such a roaring 20's name. Like a character out of Gatsby Maybe just maybe he'll be a gem that we swooped up at the right time though I'm always worried about guys that have never managed a game in the bigs. Hey we're not the only one's, Boston is handing their ship over to Cora and that's no easy franchise to lead. I still remember either the Post or NY Daily News when the Mets hired Howe Lou-sers and Howe! He was so plain and milquetoast and uninspiring. Everything was so predictably by the book with him. Don't know how somebody like Art Howe could impress but who knows with Wilpon. He certainly was a safe choice. Like the managerial version of rice thins Yeah Howe was brutal...supposedly the A's couldn't get him out of there fast enough when the Mets wanted him (Billy Beane basically thought Steve Phillips was an idiot, and supposedly told people that it was easy to convince Phillips that a bad move could turn out to be good move. Art was a nice enough guy, but just clueless...his favorite word in every postgame show after a loss was "scuffling"...the Mets might be losing, but they were always "scuffling"). I don't want to make too big of a deal out of anything, but based on the press conference, Callaway came off a little too much like a guy who's thrilled to be a manager...the Mets could REALLY use someone who's once and for all going to attempt to hold people accountable. Callaway's striking me more as a guy who wants to be everyone's pal, which is a little scary. But gotta give him a chance. Edited October 30, 2017 by Colorado Rockies 1976 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'7' Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 Regarding this World Series, even though I am completely emotionally divorced from it because it's Dodgers/Astros and I have no strong feelings towards either club right now. It has been an all time great World Series. Aided by the juiced ball. But the drama has been unreal. Hope it goes 7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 I haven't been watching at all. Hate the whole juiced ball aspect myself. The Patriots winning (though ugly) and the Devils winning and being so much fun to watch have allowed me to completely flush baseball out of my system. And I couldn't be more down on the Mets (especially Alderson) right now. I'm really hoping to be proven wrong about Sandy, but I have no faith in him anymore. Even Mr. Metric's drafts haven't produced all that much, when you really think about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'7' Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 20 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said: I haven't been watching at all. Hate the whole juiced ball aspect myself. The Patriots winning (though ugly) and the Devils winning and being so much fun to watch have allowed me to completely flush baseball out of my system. And I couldn't be more down on the Mets (especially Alderson) right now. I'm really hoping to be proven wrong about Sandy, but I have no faith in him anymore. Even Mr. Metric's drafts haven't produced all that much, when you really think about it. To me it's disheartening how Sandy is just slow to recognize changes and trends in baseball and is so behind the curve now rather than ahead of things. Some of it could be Wilpons meddling or penny pinching but the blueprint of what wins in baseball now and for the foreseeable future is kind of lost on him. Loaded power bats, stacked bullpens. Loaded rotations cannot be relied on. They fall apart injury wise as we've seen. You need durable pitchers, not necessarily great ones, but ones that are still standing in October. Anybody whose game is too focused on hitting single is utterly worthless nowadays Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 3 hours ago, '7' said: To me it's disheartening how Sandy is just slow to recognize changes and trends in baseball and is so behind the curve now rather than ahead of things. Some of it could be Wilpons meddling or penny pinching but the blueprint of what wins in baseball now and for the foreseeable future is kind of lost on him. Loaded power bats, stacked bullpens. Loaded rotations cannot be relied on. They fall apart injury wise as we've seen. You need durable pitchers, not necessarily great ones, but ones that are still standing in October. Anybody whose game is too focused on hitting single is utterly worthless nowadays To be fair I can understand him wanting to try the "Killer rotation" thing one last time, but that has to be it...today's arms are just to fragile to rely on. As far as power bats go, Citi doesn't play well for that. I still think the way to go is to stack up on higher avg, higher OB%, low-K contact guys who can grind out solid ABs and can keep the train moving on the basepaths. I don't trust Sandy to find power bats because the ones he finds don't seem to do much more than hit HRs against lower-tier pitchers (and whiff like crazy). And yeah, one of these seasons, build a strong 'pen Sandy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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