NFL Week 3

[Daniel]

1 minute ago, MadDog2020 said:

AFAIK and from what I've heard (not like I've sat down and read the NFL CBA), there's nothing specific pertaining to this issue in there. Because when they drew the document up six years ago, standing or not standing for the anthem wasn't a thing. Now that it's become a national mega-controversy, I think there will probably be very specific language which spells out what is and isn't permitted regarding anthem
participation.


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It became an issue in the NBA in the late 90s.  And it was also an issue baseball with Carlos Delgado, who, if I recall, gave up his protest (which was really, really silly) after a couple of games after pressure from either the Mets or the league front office.  So it wouldn't shock me if there's some boilerplate in the NFL CBA to the same effect, but Goodell didn't want the headache.

[MadDog2020]

It became an issue in the NBA in the late 90s.  And it was also an issue baseball with Carlos Delgado, who, if I recall, gave up his protest (which was really, really silly) after a couple of games after pressure from either the Mets or the league front office.  So it wouldn't shock me if there's some boilerplate in the NFL CBA to the same effect, but Goodell didn't want the headache.

Could be... Bottom line though is this will probably be a much bigger issue during the next CBA negotiations than anyone could have ever imagined something like this could ever be. On a side note, I'm happy that we've been able to turn this into an intelligent, forward-moving discussion. I apologize for jumping all over you this morning and yesterday- I'm just frustrated with the whole situation and I wish the damn country would/could unite again (sadly, not likely anytime soon). It sucks living in such divisive times.

 

 

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[Daniel]

1 minute ago, MadDog2020 said:

 On a side note, I'm happy that we've been able to turn this into an intelligent, forward-moving discussion. I apologize for jumping all over you this morning and yesterday- I'm just frustrated with the whole situation and I wish the damn country would unite again. It sucks living in such divisive times.


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Agreed, although the whole uniting part works both ways.  One way to do that is not to sh!t all over a custom that's been around for about 100 years now, especially not over a pseudo-intellectual wannabe arm chair revolutionary like Kaepernick. 

It would also help if more people understood that Trump got elected because of very real and important issues that I won't get into.

Or, how about this, if you really hate Trump, you should listen to what Steve Bannon -- a guy who, whatever you think of him, is a political genius -- said:  "The Democrats, the longer they talk about identity politics, I got ’em, I want them to talk about racism every day.  If the left is focused on race and identity, and we go with economic nationalism, we can crush the Democrats."  It seems like the people that are kneeling during the national anthem are doing exactly what Trump wants them to do.  Hell, it almost makes me want to vote for him just for spite.

[Daniel]

And not for nothing, I would be lying if I said this had nothing to do with the Dolphins getting embarrassed by the Jets.

[NJDevs4978]

26 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Agreed, although the whole uniting part works both ways.  One way to do that is not to sh!t all over a custom that's been around for about 100 years now, especially not over a pseudo-intellectual wannabe arm chair revolutionary like Kaepernick. 

100 years? NFL players have only been standing for the anthem since 2009 lol

In the case of ESPN yes their optics re: Schilling/Jemele Hill look bad on the surface, the big difference is Schilling was repeatedly warned to cool it before he was fired while this was the first Twitter incident for the anchor - who they were probably going to fire or at least suspend anyway if other employees like Michael Smith didn't threaten to quit over it. And like MadDog said I still defend their right to make decisions as a company even if they come off unfair.

[Daniel]

Just now, NJDevs4978 said:

100 years? NFL players have only been standing for the anthem since 2009 lol

In the case of ESPN yes their optics re: Schilling/Jemele Hill look bad on the surface, the big difference is Schilling was repeatedly warned to cool it before he was fired while this was the first Twitter incident for the anchor - who they were probably going to fire or at least suspend anyway if other employees like Michael Smith didn't threaten to quit over it. And like MadDog said I still defend their right to make decisions as a company even if they come off unfair.

Actually, next year the custom will be 100 years old.  I think it started with baseball.

Otherwise, I bring up Schilling, et al. to make the point that the people who say kneeling during the anthem is a free speech issue mostly don't really believe it themselves.  It's certainly hypocritical for any ESPN employee or executive to claim that it is. 

['7']

I had no idea it was only since 2009. Seems like it's been longer though I'm probably only remembering certain special occasion moments.

I think what's going to end up happening this off-season is that there will be an agreement where all teams will remain in the locker rooms during the anthem. The NFL will pursue an out of sight out of mind policy. We won't know who stands, who sits, who kneels. The optics of this and the backlash is getting very ugly. You have both sides of the issue in full boycott mode, you have die hard fans of certain franchises, burning tickets and team gear on youtube. This is the last thing the league wants to see. It's terrifying them.

The owners may put out their statements and lock arms and such, but when it's just the 32 of them + Roger behind closes doors, I guarantee they are singing a different tune.

[MadDog2020]

And not for nothing, I would be lying if I said this had nothing to do with the Dolphins getting embarrassed by the Jets.

Yeah it was brutal. [emoji21]


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[NJDevs4978]

20 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Actually, next year the custom will be 100 years old.  I think it started with baseball.

Otherwise, I bring up Schilling, et al. to make the point that the people who say kneeling during the anthem is a free speech issue mostly don't really believe it themselves.  It's certainly hypocritical for any ESPN employee or executive to claim that it is. 

They've played the anthem longer in football and other sports but NFL teams were in the locker room while the anthem was playing till 2009. Like 7 I think they might go back to that soon.

Edited September 25, 2017 by NJDevs4978

[Daniel]

19 minutes ago, NJDevs4978 said:

They've played the anthem longer in football and other sports but NFL teams were in the locker room while the anthem was playing till 2009. Like 7 I think they might go back to that soon.

I really didn't know that, but it's probably because I had been to something like 2 or 3 NFL games before then, and I may have missed the anthem at all of them.

I agree with 7 that the NFL has to get out in front of this if it wants to save its ratings.  They can either do something like he suggests, or maybe require all players to stand in a dignified manner during the anthem but with something explicit that players can't be disciplined for political views stated on social media, and the like.  As it stands now, this has really stuck in my craw.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

1 hour ago, MadDog2020 said:

Could be... Bottom line though is this will probably be a much bigger issue during the next CBA negotiations than anyone could have ever imagined something like this could ever be. On a side note, I'm happy that we've been able to turn this into an intelligent, forward-moving discussion. I apologize for jumping all over you this morning and yesterday- I'm just frustrated with the whole situation and I wish the damn country would/could unite again (sadly, not likely anytime soon). It sucks living in such divisive times.

Gotta admit, it was kind of bummin me out that you and Daniel were really going at it...I've always enjoyed reading both your viewpoints about the Dolphins in the Dolphin threads (even if Daniel tends to be almost comically negative).  In a way it's yet another reminder of the world we live in, where it seems like (as Beez alluded to) it's getting harder and harder to just enjoy what should be a simple diversion (isn't that what pro sports was always supposed to be?  Don't we all have enough going on with regards to the rest of our existence?).  Not implying that we should all just bury our heads in the sand by any means, and not have any awareness of what's going on around us, but when I set aside time to watch football...I WANNA WATCH fvckING FOOTBALL!  I wanna talk about coaching strategy and big plays (and big gaffes) and future stars and rivals...and I agree with '7', in that I think that the (happy?) medium will likely be that the players just all stay in the locker rooms during the anthem...simply because it seems like having the teams being present for it on the field has become more trouble than it's worth.  Who stands?  Who kneels?  Why is he kneeling?  Should he kneel?  Is he giving his country the finger by kneeling? 

And I agree Dog, there is so much more just general nastiness towards each other...what that has made me do is appreciate the "little joys" in life more than I ever have.  Time spent with my daughter, regardless of what we're doing.  Hanging out in my backyard with some music on either by myself, or with family and friends.  A swim in a pool.  A glass or two of Scotch.  Hiking a scenic trail or a quiet road.  Hanging with some dudes and BSing during sporting events.  Amazing what a lot of sh!t can get you to savour.    

Edited September 25, 2017 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[MadDog2020]

Gotta admit, it was kind of bummin me out that you and Daniel were really going at it...I've always enjoyed reading both your viewpoints about the Dolphins in the Dolphin threads (even if Daniel tends to be almost comically negative).  In a way it's yet another reminder of the world we live in, where it seems like (as Beez alluded to) it's getting harder and harder to just enjoy what should be a simple diversion (isn't that what pro sports was always supposed to be?  Don't we all have enough going on with regards to the rest of our existence?).  Not implying that we should all just bury our heads in the sand by any means, and not have any awareness of what's going on around us, but when I set aside time to watch football...I WANNA WATCH fvckING FOOTBALL!  I wanna talk about coaching strategy and big plays (and big gaffes) and future stars and rivals...and I agree with '7', in that I think that the (happy?) medium will likely be that the players just all stay in the locker rooms during the anthem...simply because it seems like having the teams being present for it on the field has simply become more trouble than it's worth.  Who stands?  Who kneels?  Why is he kneeling?  Should he kneel?  Is he giving his country the finger by kneeling? 
And I agree Dog, there is so much more just general nastiness towards each other...what that has made me do is appreciate the "little joys" in life more than I ever have.  Time spent with my daughter, regardless of what we're doing.  Hanging out in my backyard with some music on either by myself, or with family and friends.  A swim in a pool.  A glass or two of Scotch.  Hiking a scenic trail or a quiet road.  Hanging with some dudes and BSing during sporting events.  Amazing what a lot of sh!t can get you to savour.    

It's all good CR- Daniel is a good dude. I enjoy our back and forths as well, and sometimes, when I'm as frustrated as I have been over this whole issue (it doesn't help that I had to endure the commute from hell this morning, a morning after a terrible Dolphins loss, further enraging me lol), I just unleash, fair or unfair. That's why I apologized. But you're right- the discourse in this country has gotten downright nasty, and it's really sad. We're all Americans. We all love our country, even if we don't always agree on how to improve it and make it better. Trump has been the divider everyone expected him to be, probably more so than some may have expected, and you see where we are now as a nation. We can't seem to agree on whether the sky is blue or the earth is round anymore, let alone how to deal with incredibly important and intricate social and economic issues... I wasn't around for the 60's, but I feel like we're living through the most turbulent time since then. I just don't know if we can ever be truly united again. Everyone lives in their little echo chambers. Oh CNN said it? FAKE NEWS. Oh the Washington Post reported it? FAKE NEWS. It doesn't align with your political view point? FAKE NEWS. We can't agree on what a FACT is anymore, and I think social media is mostly to blame for that, because Facebook and Twitter allow us to customize our information according to our world views. How are we ever supposed to come together if we can't agree on whether day is day or night is night anymore?! I'm just at a loss man... We live in very interesting and eventful, but incredibly sad times today. [emoji20]


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[Daniel]

16 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Gotta admit, it was kind of bummin me out that you and Daniel were really going at it...I've always enjoyed reading both your viewpoints about the Dolphins in the Dolphin threads (even if Daniel tends to be almost comically negative).  In a way it's yet another reminder of the world we live in, where it seems like (as Beez alluded to) it's getting harder and harder to just enjoy what should be a simple diversion (isn't that what pro sports was always supposed to be?  Don't we all have enough going on with regards to the rest of our existence?).  Not implying that we should all just bury our heads in the sand by any means, and not have any awareness of what's going on around us, but when I set aside time to watch football...I WANNA WATCH fvckING FOOTBALL!  I wanna talk about coaching strategy and big plays (and big gaffes) and future stars and rivals...and I agree with '7', in that I think that the (happy?) medium will likely be that the players just all stay in the locker rooms during the anthem...simply because it seems like having the teams being present for it on the field has become more trouble than it's worth.  Who stands?  Who kneels?  Why is he kneeling?  Should he kneel?  Is he giving his country the finger by kneeling? 

And I agree Dog, there is so much more just general nastiness towards each other...what that has made me do is appreciate the "little joys" in life more than I ever have.  Time spent with my daughter, regardless of what we're doing.  Hanging out in my backyard with some music on either by myself, or with family and friends.  A swim in a pool.  A glass or two of Scotch.  Hiking a scenic trail or a quiet road.  Hanging with some dudes and BSing during sporting events.  Amazing what a lot of sh!t can get you to savour.    

I guess it's the interwebs and social media, a little dose of cable news, that makes this stuff inevitable.  You had people cracking skulls at Vietnam War protests, but ultimately you didn't get into heated arguments with people about politics at games, at least it didn't seem like people did.  Hell, I've seen a ton of fights over the years at Devils games, but I doubt that a single one has been over politics.

Twenty or thirty years ago, some player would have done his thing, it might get a brief mention on the nightly news, maybe, and that would be it.  Players wouldn't really have the opportunity to comment to everyone in the world on whim and same with fans and sports writers, etc.

And yeah, having a President with an active twitter account that says whatever comes into his mind and is otherwise an undignified and boorish fellow doesn't help either.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

So true Dog...there's just SO many shades of gray now.  Seemingly with everything.  And people, just like cars, go from 0-60 faster now than ever.  You check out any article online about almost anything that's debatable (and allows people to post responses), and within 20 responses, it's personal attacks followed by more personal attacks. 

And yeah Daniel, different world now, exponentially smaller world, where viral videos assure that nothing can EVER fade from memory...a world far removed from the one I grew up in (70s and 80s)...hell, even a site like this...20 or 30 years ago, I wouldn't have known anyone here...my "Devil community" when I was a teenager and well into my 20s consisted of some friends and friends-by-association who happened to root for the Devils.

I have some friends who have ALWAYS been into talking politics...I've never enjoyed those conversations, mostly because they get so heated, and often ugly, and more so now than ever, such banter can bring out the worst in people...so much "Either you're with me or against me"-type ultimatums.  I've seen good friends (with alcohol not helping) almost come to blows over that sh!t.  It's not worth it to me.

Some good and bad with our current world, just like there's always been good and bad (though older folks have a way of making THEIR past worlds sound pristine, though they weren't).  I do enjoy being able to find information at a lightning-fast rate...that I wouldn't trade for anything.  And on a simple-pleasures front, I love coming on this site, whether it's to discuss my favorite hockey team, debate, vent, etc.

re:  Trump...I just patiently (more foolishly) await the day when he realizes that he doesn't have to comment on every last fvcking thing on fvcking TWITTER, of all places.   

Edited September 25, 2017 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Daniel]

6 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

So true Dog...there's just SO many shades of gray now.  Seemingly with everything.  And people, just like cars, go from 0-60 faster now than ever.  You check out any article online about almost anything that's debatable (and allows people to post responses), and within 20 responses, it's personal attacks followed by more personal attacks. 

And yeah Daniel, different world now, exponentially smaller world, where viral videos assure that nothing can EVER fade from memory...a world far removed than the one I grew up in (70s and 80s)...hell, even a site like this...20 or 30 years ago, I wouldn't have known anyone here...my "Devil community" when I was a teenager and well into my 20s consisted of some friends and friends-by-association who happened to root for the Devils.

I have some friends who have ALWAYS been into talking politics...I've never enjoyed those conversations, mostly because they get so heated, and often ugly, and more so now than ever, such banter can bring out the worst in people...so much "Either or with me or against me"-type ultimatums.  I've seen good friends (with alcohol not helping) almost come to blows over that sh!t.  It's not worth it to me.

Some good and bad with our current world, just like there's always been good and bad (though older folks have a way of making THEIR past worlds sound pristine, though they weren't).  I do enjoy being able to find information at a lightning-fast rate...that I wouldn't trade for anything.  And on a simple-pleasures front, I love coming on this site, whether it's to discuss my favorite hockey team, debate, vent, etc.

re:  Trump...I just patiently (more foolishly) await the day when he realizes that he doesn't have to comment on every last fvcking thing on fvcking TWITTER, of all places.   

For some reason, this reminds me about Lou Reed's intro at a Velvet Underground concert in Dallas in I think 1969.  He spent a few lines talking about how the Cowboys trounced the Eagles earlier that afternoon.  You can probably find the CD on ebay.  Kind of cool that someone as counterculture as Lou Reed could connect with an audience over something like that.  I doubt it could happen now.

[MadDog2020]

22 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

re:  Trump...I just patiently (more foolishly) await the day when he realizes that he doesn't have to comment on every last fvcking thing on fvcking TWITTER, of all places. 

You're gonna be waiting a while on that one bro... I just hope Mueller hurries the fvck up. 

['7']

fwiw Brandon Marshall is now being accused of spitting on a fan yesterday. Even made it in red ink on drudge report.

Whatever happened, who knows...but I am glad this cancer is no longer on the Jets.

[Daniel]

8 minutes ago, MadDog2020 said:

You're gonna be waiting a while on that one bro... I just hope Mueller hurries the fvck up. 

When people realize that Trump is just trolling them, intentionally or unintentionally, the better off we'll all be, and they'll be able to beat him.  Meaning, he takes a position that probably a majority of people agree with -- that NFL players should stand during the national anthem --and says it in an inflammatory matter.  Meanwhile, his political opponents, predictably, feel the need not to just say, I believe in free speech, but rather take a position that most voters disagree with, i.e. I support overpaid multi-millionaire entertainers who disrespect the flag and the country, and who are also calling anyone who doesn't join in their silly protest a racist deplorable.  It's pretty much exactly what he did with the border wall.  Most people in this country, actually the vast majority of people, oppose illegal immigration, and pretty stridently.  So Trump proposes something completely unrealistic, but gaudy, in how to deal with it.  His political opponents would have been much better served by believably saying they also oppose illegal immigration, but that there's a much more effective way to deal with it.  Instead, pretty much all of his opponents from the primaries all the way to Hillary felt compelled to appear as if they supported unrestricted illegal immigration, letting criminals out of jail to avoid deportation, and all the other bad stuff that happens when we don't enforce our immigration laws.  Basically when people get beyond their belief that middle America is irredeemably racist and that there's no substance to what Trump is selling, they can easily beat him.  Hint, Trump's campaign was more or less a rehash of Ross Perot and Pat Buchanan.

As to Mueller's investigation, you're going to be sorely sorely disappointed.  He'll get indictments for some marginal figures that actually have nothing to do with the original purpose of his investigation, who Trump will ultimately pardon.  Meanwhile, that'll cause his political opponents to once again focus on Russia, while Trump talks about things people care about. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

15 minutes ago, '7' said:

fwiw Brandon Marshall is now being accused of spitting on a fan yesterday. Even made it in red ink on drudge report.

Whatever happened, who knows...but I am glad this cancer is no longer on the Jets.

One of those situations where Marshall can't get into it with a fan to begin with...yeah, in some cases, fans can say some very sh!tty things (mostly to get some kind of reaction) and it's probably hard at times to let it all go, but there's NOTHING to be gained by confronting fans if you're a player. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Daniel]

By the way this says a lot about how probably the majority of NFL fans feel...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-25/steeler-who-stood-for-anthem-now-has-best-selling-nfl-jersey?cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business&utm_content=business&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

Quote

Steeler Who Stood for Anthem Now Has Best-Selling NFL Jersey

This was a guy that most NFL fans had never heard of unless you followed the Steelers, and now has the best selling jersey apparently.  As '7' said, the NFL needs to get out in front of this.

[NJDevs4978]

34 minutes ago, '7' said:

fwiw Brandon Marshall is now being accused of spitting on a fan yesterday. Even made it in red ink on drudge report.

Whatever happened, who knows...but I am glad this cancer is no longer on the Jets.

I am somewhat amused he's probably not going to the playoffs AGAIN. And it was supposed to be a slam dunk this year lol

['7']

1 hour ago, NJDevs4978 said:

I am somewhat amused he's probably not going to the playoffs AGAIN. And it was supposed to be a slam dunk this year lol

lol. It's crazy how many years he's missed. And it's not like he's wallowed for teams with 0 talent for a decade, but so many of his teams underachieve constantly. And he's part of the problem.

That said if the Giants fall out of it I can see them trading him to a playoff bound team needing WR depth.

[MadDog2020]

As to Mueller's investigation, you're going to be sorely sorely disappointed.  He'll get indictments for some marginal figures that actually have nothing to do with the original purpose of his investigation, who Trump will ultimately pardon.  Meanwhile, that'll cause his political opponents to once again focus on Russia, while Trump talks about things people care about. 

While you're probably right, I'm hoping against hope that he uncovers direct dirt on Trump (you know he has those tax returns, and we all know those tax returns are probably incriminating, or else why not release them?) and takes him down. I just want to see him humiliated and shamed. He's earned all the humiliation and shame he may one day incur.

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by MadDog2020

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, MadDog2020 said:

While you're probably right, I'm hoping against hope that he uncovers direct dirt on Trump (you know he has those tax returns, and we all know those tax returns are probably incriminating, or else why not release them?) and takes him down. I just want to see him humiliated and shamed. He's earned all the humiliation and shame he may one day incur.

 

He could discover that Trump beheaded a prostitute this morning.  The only way you're getting rid of him before January 2020 is through impeachment.

His tax returns are also unlikely to reveal anything other than he's probably not as rich as he says he is.  Remember the Rachel Maddow tax return reveal that turned into Al Capone's vault.

[Daniel]

This is a good take, although I'm not sure if I can get the link to work

Trump's gut knows that America agrees with him on NFL controversy - CNN
https://apple.news/A6U0omhAaQgKKJcwiVIn-_w