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Lou and Sutter are delusional

364 posts in this topic

I consider myself a realist, I thought that a first-round victory was possible no matter who the Devils played. Was it realistic to think that Philly could win two rounds? Apparently, yes.

My point exactally. The East was wide open. (Wash/Ottawa/Boston) The 6th place Flyers are 4 wins away from the finals. Sue said Fedorov was available, and she's right. But so was Foote, Lang, Tkachuk, Fedotenko, and others (all from non-playoff teams) that could've helped us on 'O.

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My point exactally. The East was wide open. (Wash/Ottawa/Boston) The 6th place Flyers are 4 wins away from the finals. Sue said Fedorov was available, and she's right. But so was Foote, Lang, Tkachuk, Fedotenko, and others (all from non-playoff teams) that could've helped us on 'O.

Foote is a defensive defenseman, and none of these other players got moved.

Fedotenko is terrible, or didn't you notice him as a healthy scratch on last year's Lightning team in the playoffs?

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I consider myself a realist, and I thought that a first-round victory was possible no matter who the Devils played. Was it realistic to think that Philly could win two rounds? Apparently, yes.

I believe, although I could be wrong, that Philadelphia got 'healthy' (except for poor Gange) in the weeks leading up to the deadline and towards the end of the season. The team that was stumbling was not necessarily the team that wound up in the playoffs. They had one deadline deal that I recall, they did pick up some offense, Vinnie Prospal for D Alexandre Picard and a conditional pick. I admit, I can't judge whether Lou could have sold Tampa on one of our D-men for Prospal, but I do remember that Prospal was discussed on the board and people weren't thrilled, they seemed to believe he was allergic to back-checking.

The surprise to me was that Biron has been as good as he has been. Or, is it that Price simply ran out of gas?

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Fedotenko is terrible, or didn't you notice him as a healthy scratch on last year's Lightning team in the playoffs?

Dude, Fedotenko is terrible on the Islanders. Viktor Kozlov was pretty bad with us if I remember. Now he puts up 50+ points per season.

...and the fact that none of those other players were moved means what? Gio wasn't moved. You don't think Lou tried?

Edited by Beezer34

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Dude, Fedotenko is terrible on the Islanders. Viktor Kozlov was pretty bad with us if I remember. Now he puts up 50+ points per season.

I could put up 50 points with AO on my line.

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Foote made it very clear that if the Jackets were not going to resign him for his demands he was only going to Colorado for the 2001 reunion tour.

Neither Robert i cant find a job on a playoff team anymoreLang, Keith the playoff choker Tkachuk, nor Ruslan i won a cup in 2004 Fedotenko were going to come onto this team and be offensive saviors.

Lang was jetisoned from the wings as one of the main causes of their playoff failures the past few years. He is old and benefited from a lot of icetime on a crappy chicago team, and even the Hawks fans bitched about how lazy he is. Not to mention he is on the hook for 4 million in cap hit next year, taking away flexability when he tanks.

Tkachuk has a history as a playoff no show, and that isnt going to change at age 35. The guy has not won anything that matters ever. Is this the guy that is going to lead the offense on a team that struggled to score all year long? He is also on the books for a 4 million cap hit next year, creating the same problem as Lang, an older semi productive player taking up a lot of cap space.

Fedotenko has been at best a secondary scorer his entire career. Where does he fit into this team, who does he possibly knock out of the top 6? He certainly wont play on the checking line. So at this point we are trading for a 4th liner and possibly powerplay guy who has scored over 20 goals once in his career. Now i know he had an amazing playoffs in 03-04 for Tampa, but his level of play has never even come close to that since, and an offensively challenged team that doesnt have names like Richards, Lecavlier and St Louis is going to bring it back out of him? His stat this year for the Isles are due to the lack of depth on that NYI team, they had no where else to go and had to give him playing time, he still only scored 16 goals with it and was marginalized by a bunch of 1st and 2nd year players down the stretch.

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Bravo in resurrecting this topic again, I miss it.

My thoughts exactly!

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Foote made it very clear that if the Jackets were not going to resign him for his demands he was only going to Colorado for the 2001 reunion tour.

Neither Robert i cant find a job on a playoff team anymoreLang, Keith the playoff choker Tkachuk, nor Ruslan i won a cup in 2004 Fedotenko were going to come onto this team and be offensive saviors.

Lang was jetisoned from the wings as one of the main causes of their playoff failures the past few years. He is old and benefited from a lot of icetime on a crappy chicago team, and even the Hawks fans bitched about how lazy he is. Not to mention he is on the hook for 4 million in cap hit next year, taking away flexability when he tanks.

Tkachuk has a history as a playoff no show, and that isnt going to change at age 35. The guy has not won anything that matters ever. Is this the guy that is going to lead the offense on a team that struggled to score all year long? He is also on the books for a 4 million cap hit next year, creating the same problem as Lang, an older semi productive player taking up a lot of cap space.

Fedotenko has been at best a secondary scorer his entire career. Where does he fit into this team, who does he possibly knock out of the top 6? He certainly wont play on the checking line. So at this point we are trading for a 4th liner and possibly powerplay guy who has scored over 20 goals once in his career. Now i know he had an amazing playoffs in 03-04 for Tampa, but his level of play has never even come close to that since, and an offensively challenged team that doesnt have names like Richards, Lecavlier and St Louis is going to bring it back out of him? His stat this year for the Isles are due to the lack of depth on that NYI team, they had no where else to go and had to give him playing time, he still only scored 16 goals with it and was marginalized by a bunch of 1st and 2nd year players down the stretch.

...thank you for that scouting report. I don't have to go on TSN now. :rolleyes:

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I dont think the case is that Lou did not try to find offensive help for the team. He ran into a situation where first, the playoff races were incredibly tight and there were less sellers looking to dump guys; second, there were not many up coming UFA's that teams were looking to move; and third players still with rfa years that are productive command an serious premium, one that this team did not have the assets to afford. Especially when you consider where this team is in the building phase at the moment. Now i know the east was wide open this year, but this was not a team that was 1 or 2 players away from making a serious run. As we saw against the Rangers, the defense is seriously flawed, and then we have the offensive personel that need to be upgraded as well. They needed to take a step back and not do anything risky for this year, where the chances of success were not good. Save what assets we do have, have a solid draft, probably a trade in the offseason and keep looking towards the future. Many changers were made to this team last offseason to start a transofrmation, and i do not think we have seen the last of them.

Lou is under great pressure to make another run before marty retires, and has to work quickly, but in the world of team building there are things that cannot be rushed. Lou turned that 96 non playoff team into a cup winner 4 years later by rebuilding the foward corps. He turned that train wreck 02 team into a cup winner a year later with some shrewd trades. He probably faces his biggest team building challenge since when he first took over right now, but in my opinion this year he has taken the first steps that are necessary to move the team closer to contention in the next couple of years.

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This team was built on smoke and mirrors and the snake oil salesman was in town for most of the season....

We were on top of the division just about the whole year ... no moral victories pleeeze ....

(Crash - - I like the first line for a tag line please)

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This team is in the building phase at the moment.

:blink: A 99 point 4th place building phase I guess.

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:blink: A 99 point 4th place building phase I guess.

I think building would imply that the team is not complete, and by your posting history i think you would agree that the team needs help. The defense is a group of journeymen, is that the core to take this team to the promise land of the stanley cup? That record has more to do with the relative weakness of the east then it does with the overall quality of the team.

Edited by Sarge18

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:blink: A 99 point 4th place building phase I guess.

It's very possible to have a team that can get a decent number of points in the regular season that never makes it out of the first round. They had a tough year against certain playoff teams (Habs, Rangers, sometimes the Pens although they tended to win more games against the Pens and then get their doors blown off in others). But, they did well against others, like the Flyers (could almost always get well against them) and, the Bruins. However, the team was pretty inconsistent. But I think it's fair to say that from the game against the Habs where they blew the two-goal lead in the third it was hard to tell exactly what team was going to show up on the ice, from game-to game and from period to period and that's the sign of a team that isn't whole yet, either offensively or defensively. And one that isn't going to go far in the playoffs.

I'm not surprised by what happened. I'm just surprised so many people expected more. I expected pretty much what happened, though, when he didn't upgrade the offense I said at the time that the team had been getting by on one of Marty's 'years' and people were probably thinking that if Lou had done something, anything for the offense, maybe Marty would have one of those playoff runs. However, the team just isn't there. I want you to think back to the Rangers in 1997, when they beat NJ in the second round and went to the ECF, losing to the Flyers in 5. Management thought the Rangers were one round away from the Finals, and even though they let Messier go, they brought in free agents, re-tooled around Gretzky, sure that that run wasn't a mirage, it was a sign that they were going places, had a real shot at the Cup Finals. Sometimes, deep runs are just a mirage. I believe that's all one would have this year for NJ, if it had happened.

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I said it back then and I'll say it now: Lou and Sutter are/were delusional if they expected us to believe that this team as it was built had any chance of getting past the first round, much less going all the way.

The only delusional people are the ones that think Hossa alone would have made the difference between losing a five-game series in the first round and winning the Cup. Or the ones that think because we didn't get Hossa or Campbell - and really those are the only two players traded that would have made any appreciable difference - automatically means we didn't try to or that Lou was content with the team as is.

Besides, anyone honestly think Hossa would have the same impact for us as he did the Penguins? Lou would have been infinitely more delusional shooting the wad for Hossa without any centers capable of getting him the puck :P

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I think the problem here is that we didn't have the key players/picks available to land a top talent.

We need to fix our minor league team/drafting in order to make deals with the big boys.

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:blink: A 99 point 4th place building phase I guess.

You don't need to finish dead last to be in a building phase.

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You don't need to finish dead last to be in a building phase.

As long as Martin Brodeur continues to play, the Devils will not be in a building phase. -period. You want to talk about the direction of where the organization will go post Marty, fine. But this team was successful this year, there's no way around it. No, we may not "have finished dead last", but it's comical to say we were in a building phase. The Devils were one of the better teams in the NHL, let alone the East. Only 5 teams in the league had more points. What kind of message does that send to management? Or was the only reason why we finished so well because of a weak league too? :rolleyes:

The fact that nothing was done to address our needs in order to assist us in our cup run remains. You can't play both sides of the coin. If we were really THAT bad a team, we wouldn't have finished as well as we did. And if the "only reason why we did so well" is due to a weak conference, well that's even more of a reason to make a move.

Edited by Beezer34

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As long as Martin Brodeur continues to play, the Devils will not be in a building phase. -period.

[...]

The fact that nothing was done to address our needs in order to assist us in our cup run remains.

Contradiction. If we needed to make changes in order to have a successful Cup run, that means this year's team wasn't built properly, therefore they will need to be in some sort of building phase if they intend to do better next year.

Now, if you meant to say REbuilding, in which everything is torn down and the organization rebuilds from the ground up (hence the name), then I would agree that the Devils won't even think about rebuilding until Brodeur hangs 'em up. However, every team that is trying to do better than they did the year before is building in some fashion.

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As long as Martin Brodeur continues to play, the Devils will not be in a building phase. -period. You want to talk about the direction of where the organization will go post Marty, fine. But this team was successful this year, there's no way around it. No, we may not "have finished dead last", but it's comical to say we were in a building phase. The Devils were one of the better teams in the NHL, let alone the East. Only 5 teams in the league had more points. What kind of message does that send to management? Or was the only reason why we finished so well because of a weak league too? :rolleyes:

The Devils were in a building phase. The only reasons they made the playoffs at all were the emergence of Johnny Oduya and Paul Martin, the surprising competence of Mike Mottau, and playing Martin Brodeur every single night. When a team loses two players as skilled as Gomez and Rafalski, and largely does not replace them, there's going to be some growing pains.

The fact that nothing was done to address our needs in order to assist us in our cup run remains. You can't play both sides of the coin. If we were really THAT bad a team, we wouldn't have finished as well as we did. And if the "only reason why we did so well" is due to a weak conference, well that's even more of a reason to make a move.

Sure you can. You can say New Jersey finished as well as they did largely due to the shootout, overtime, luck, and the aforementioned - otherwise they're a marginal playoff team, and require no upgrades. As it stands the team has two holes, not one - and the prospect depth just isn't there.

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As long as Martin Brodeur continues to play, the Devils will not be in a building phase. -period. You want to talk about the direction of where the organization will go post Marty, fine. But this team was successful this year, there's no way around it. No, we may not "have finished dead last", but it's comical to say we were in a building phase. The Devils were one of the better teams in the NHL, let alone the East. Only 5 teams in the league had more points. What kind of message does that send to management? Or was the only reason why we finished so well because of a weak league too? :rolleyes:

The fact that nothing was done to address our needs in order to assist us in our cup run remains. You can't play both sides of the coin. If we were really THAT bad a team, we wouldn't have finished as well as we did. And if the "only reason why we did so well" is due to a weak conference, well that's even more of a reason to make a move.

When you lose your number 1 center AND number 1 defensemen, you have to build. The writing was on the wall this year. We were not going to win the cup on talent. If anything, I am happy that we finished 4th during this season for a number of reasons. Sutter's first year in NHL without handpicked players. Having AHLer's Mike Mottau, Sheldon Brookbank, and Andy Greene(not fair to blame them, its not their fault; they were in over their heads) in the lineup on a nightly basis.

Some of the things from this building year are going to be great for us next year. Paul Martin becoming a #1 defensemen. Johnny Oduya's great second half of the season. White adjusting to his impaired vision. Zach Parise continuing his development. Madden becoming a scoring threat we wished he would've. Zajac had a tough year, but I still think he can become a legit 2nd line center. To a lot of the team, this was a great year of experience.

Add a decent UFA or 2 if possible, hope Vrana and Bergfors make the team, and I think this team definitely could challenge for the cup next year.

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You're missing my point. I'm not going against the fact that the losses of 23 & 28 were not immense, they certainly were. If anything I am agreeing with you. My point is the TEAM REMAINED COMPETITIVE despite the lose. 6th in the league!!! :horse: Saying it was due to the schedule, and the weak teams, and the shootout, the overtime, the luck, the aforementioned, the moon, the stars, etc, is silly. (AND unfair to the players.) Let's cut the crap, and give credit where credit's due here. Every team profits from these things, we didn't benefit more than any other team. "The Devils had more luck because of overtime than the avarage team?" Are we being real here? Are we now keeping count of lucky occurrences durring the season as the basis of how lucky we were -vs- how much skill we had\have? The Devils had 4 losses from the shootout all year. (ranked 22nd in the NHL) If someone here knows any special unfair advantage that we had over any other NHL club, please enlighten me.

Having AHLer's Mike Mottau, Sheldon Brookbank, and Andy Greene is not fair to blame them, its not their fault; they were in over their heads in the lineup on a nightly basis.

Where did they play on a nightly basis? Brookbank played 44 games, and Greene logged 59. Mottau was the only one who played almost the entire season, and he did great. He finished 3rd in points of the d'men.

The only reasons they made the playoffs at all were the emergence of Johnny Oduya and Paul Martin, the surprising competence of Mike Mottau, and playing Martin Brodeur every single night.

Oduya & Martin were expected to have a good year this season. To say we soley made the playoffs based on them? And playing Marty as much as he played aint no big advantage anymore. (not at his age anyway) He ended the year with the 2nd most losses in his career this season. We actually could've benifited if Weekes played a bit more.

Edited by Beezer34

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...and who was expecting them to go further in the playoffs?

Me. :saddevil:

I thought the Devs could've made it to the SCF's as long as we didn't have to go thru the RumpRangers. Who just had our number THIS year.

I gave us better odds against every other team in the East, even the Habs, who I didn't think would be able to ride Price far.

vs. Pens 4-4

vs. Sens 2-2

vs. Flyhers 6-2

vs. Habs 1-3

vs. Da Bears 3-1

vs. Crapitals 2-2

Well no every season the Cup isn't won is a TOTAL failure

... reality.... a dish rarely served on NJDevs.com

now throw THAT up as a tag line!!!!! B )

BOTH of these are GEMS.

The surprise to me was that Biron has been as good as he has been. Or, is it that Price simply ran out of gas?

Ding Ding Ding! Price could not hold up. Biron is going to get torched by the Penguins!!

DOO be DOO be DOOOOOOO!!!

I could put up 50 points with AO on my line.

at least!

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Contradiction. If we needed to make changes in order to have a successful Cup run, that means this year's team wasn't built properly, therefore they will need to be in some sort of building phase if they intend to do better next year.

If you meant to say REbuilding, in which everything is torn down and the organization rebuilds from the ground up (hence the name), then I would agree that the Devils won't even think about rebuilding until Brodeur hangs 'em up.

I didn't contradict myself, I was responding to the post.

I know its a broken record, but its still true... this was a rebuilding year.

To me, the terms: "Rebuilding & Building" are synonymous. I see how you could've misinterpreted though. :P

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You're missing my point. I'm not going against the fact that the losses of 23 & 28 were not immense, they certainly were. If anything I am agreeing with you. My point is the TEAM REMAINED COMPETITIVE despite the lose. 6th in the league!!! :horse: Saying it was due to the schedule, and the weak teams, and the shootout, the overtime, the luck, the aforementioned, the moon, the stars, etc, is silly. (AND unfair to the players.) Let's cut the crap, and give credit where credit's due here. Every team profits from these things, we didn't benefit more than any other team. "The Devils had more luck because of overtime than the avarage team?" Are we being real here? Are we now keeping count of lucky occurrences durring the season as the basis of how lucky we were -vs- how much skill we had\have? The Devils had 4 losses from the shootout all year. (ranked 22nd in the NHL) If someone here knows any special unfair advantage that we had over any other NHL club, please enlighten me.

yes, we're being real. the devils were 15-7 in overtime this season, the second-best percentage in the league behind Edmonton. i don't think that's a repeatable skill. just as an example, the lightning were the best shootout team in the league last year, this season they were one of the worst. Now with Brodeur in nets the Devils do have an edge, but they're not going to be 66% in OT going forward. Sorry, just not happening. Plus the fact that 22 of their 82 games got to overtime is more than most teams.

Where did they play on a nightly basis? Brookbank played 44 games, and Greene logged 59. Mottau was the only one who played almost the entire season, and he did great. He finished 3rd in points of the d'men.

Since when is finishing 3rd automatically great? Mottau was passable. He was -14 away from the Rock and was exposed post All-Star break, posting a terrible +/- mark there too. The whole 3rd pairing wasn't great, but neither is anyone's third pairing. The real weakness was Mottau, who was just brutally exposed when Sutter couldn't put him in favorable situations.

Oduya & Martin were expected to have a good year this season. To say we soley made the playoffs based on them? And playing Marty as much as he played aint no big advantage anymore. (not at his age anyway) He ended the year with the 2nd most losses in his career this season. We actually could've benifited if Weekes played a bit more.

Huh? This doesn't make any sense. So just because Brodeur had more losses than other seasons, it means he played bad? No, Brodeur was just fine all season long - what separated this team from a bottom-feeder. Brodeur had his best season of his career. He had more losses because he played more games and the team surrounding him was worse than any one previous.

Oduya was a healthy scratch in several playoff games last season and couldn't seem to handle the speed of the NHL - who was expecting after his first half performance that he would be a +20 in the second half, and contribute a lot of points as well?

This wasn't a year to win it all. This was a year to hopefully make the playoffs and get some of the younger players some experience. Winning a round would be considered a major success. New Jersey got an unfavorable matchup and couldn't do anything about it. But guys like Oduya really progressed - next season is the time.

Edited by Triumph

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yes, we're being real. the devils were 15-7 in overtime this season, the second-best percentage in the league behind Edmonton. i don't think that's a repeatable skill. just as an example, the lightning were the best shootout team in the league last year, this season they were one of the worst. Now with Brodeur in nets the Devils do have an edge, but they're not going to be 66% in OT going forward. Sorry, just not happening. Plus the fact that 22 of their 82 games got to overtime is more than most teams.

How does going 15-7 in overtime mean we got lucky? Those 15 wins were 15 wins, they weren't dirty points. Dirty points are points given when a team loses. We earned every single one of those points.

Since when is finishing 3rd automatically great? Mottau was passable. He was -14 away from the Rock and was exposed post All-Star break, posting a terrible +/- mark there too. The whole 3rd pairing wasn't great, but neither is anyone's third pairing.

My comment on Mottau was in response to yours! I (thought I) was agreeing with you. You were the one who credited him as one of "the only reasons why we even made the playoffs."

--------------------------------------------------------

The only reasons they made the playoffs at all were the emergence of Johnny Oduya, Paul Martin, and the surprising competence of Mike Mottau
The real weakness was Mottau, who was just brutally exposed when Sutter couldn't put him in favorable situations.

--------------------------------------------------------

So please tell me, which stance do you take? Because I don't have a clue in what the hell you're talking about anymore. Was he the teams real weakness, or surprisingly competent. Or do you not know the meaning of the word competence?

Just because Brodeur had more losses than other seasons, it means he played bad?

Let me know when\where I said in any of my posts that Brodeur played and\or had a bad season. I said "he (Marty) playing as much as he did was not an advantage" Not an advatage does not = he played bad. You're putting words in my mouth dude.

FYI: *Competence: (n) The standardized talent for an individual to properly perform a specific job. A combination of knowledge, skills, and behavior utilized to improve performance. More generally, competence is the state or quality of being adequately or well qualified, having the ability to perform a specific role.

Edited by Beezer34

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