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LOULAM1

Israel/Hamas

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Ya know I get really tired hearing people spout the "Well its not all (insert particular race, religion, nationality here) doing the wrong doing here so back off of em" crap. Where are the muslims holding peaceful protests or at the very least speaking out against the muslim hate mongerers?

The answer is easy... there are none.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6558501.stm

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Ya know I get really tired hearing people spout the "Well its not all (insert particular race, religion, nationality here) doing the wrong doing here so back off of em" crap. Where are the muslims holding peaceful protests or at the very least speaking out against the muslim hate mongerers?

When do you ever hear about peaceful protests of any nature? Violent ones catch media outlets attention, if you search in google news "peaceful muslim protests" you will get thousands of results starting with the most recent.

So the "easy answer" is, you are seeing only what you want to see.

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Here me.. if Jerusalem were a CITY STATE with UN guards for all 3 major religions, we'd be in much better shape. That simple.

Easier said then done. There are people who are willing to die to prevent that scenario from existing, as well as willing to die for the current one. As long as their are fundamentalists who become blinded by their ideology no peace can exist, the only hope we have for the entire region is education and for radicals to basically die off. People need to learn tolerance and understanding and we need to hope it happens before the middle east implodes.

And really, UN gaurds? :unsure:

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When do you ever hear about peaceful protests of any nature? Violent ones catch media outlets attention, if you search in google news "peaceful muslim protests" you will get thousands of results starting with the most recent.

So the "easy answer" is, you are seeing only what you want to see.

What I see is a region of the fvcking world that has been at war with each other for thousands of years with no end in sight and they decided to bring us into the mix. Muslims need to just sit down, and shut the fvck up and NOT bring the rest of the god damn world into thier problems.

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What a coincidence, a few days before Obama takes over Israel declares a Cease-Fire.

It's obvious Israel was trying to get away with what it could while Bush was still in office. They saw a window of Opportunity and they took it.

They just made the world less safe for America certainly and possibly themselves.

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What a coincidence, a few days before Obama takes over Israel declares a Cease-Fire.

It's obvious Israel was trying to get away with what it could while Bush was still in office. They saw a window of Opportunity and they took it.

They just made the world less safe for America certainly and possibly themselves.

What exactly were they trying to "get away" with? Eradicating terrorist scum?

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What exactly were they trying to "get away" with? Eradicating terrorist scum?

A massive and inappropriately large response to a few Hamas rockets.

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A massive and inappropriately large response to a few Hamas rockets.

LOL. Didn't expect to see people like you on this board.

First, Israel is responding to terror. They have been hit with thousands of Hamas rockets in the past 7 years, targeted at civilian towns, even schools. Millions of people within rocket reach have 15 seconds to run when they hear a siren, 15 seconds to find a bomb shelter, afraid for their life. That's multiple times a day. Try living a life like that.

Israel has a responsibility to protect its citizens. They are doing whatever they can to eliminate the terrorist scum from Hamas. They're protecting their citizens.

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This hypocrisy amazes me Jimmy. There are protests at most Israeli embassies around the world. What I'd like to know is where have these protests been for the last 30 years after the palestinian suicide bombers blowing up people in Israel ?

Hamas firing rockets into Israel, Israel retaliate by bombing Hamas strongholds in Palestine. What do you expect the Israelis to do, sit down and take it :blink: Sure innocent people will get killed, but where was the outcry and disgust when innocent Israelis were killed by Palestinian/Hamas/Hezbollah terrorists ?........

Exactly, so what's the difference now.

A map was found showing how Hamas intertwines their terrorists right in with the civilian population.

The civillians should not allow this. By doing so, they are being made targets by their own people, not Israel.

Collecting all the past truths established in this thread so I don't have to re-type them.

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LOL. Didn't expect to see people like you on this board.

Expand on that, please.

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Expand on that, please.

People who sympathize with terrorist groups and criticize Israel for protecting itself and its citizens.

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People who sympathize with terrorist groups and criticize Israel for protecting itself and its citizens.

Have you checked the Body Count?

BTW, Israel and AIPAC should not dictate the foreign policy of the United States. NO nation should dictate the foreign policy of the United States. Yes, we are a member of NATO, but what mutual self-protection treaty have we signed with Israel?

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Have you checked the Body Count?

BTW, Israel and AIPAC should not dictate the foreign policy of the United States. NO nation should dictate the foreign policy of the United States. Yes, we are a member of NATO, but what mutual self-protection treaty have we signed with Israel?

Is it necessary to check the body count to win a war? Should Israel stop going after Hamas just because the group that uses civilians as human shields is succeeding in increasing civilian deaths?

Although Israel IS one of our closest ally, Israel's problems shouldn't dictate our foreign policy. Israel can take care of its own terrorists. I DO think though that the US should stand up for what's right, and both Obama and Bush (although Bush already did) should make strong statements supporting Israel's efforts.

Edited by matcat1116

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Three times as many Isreali's have died since the attack started, yeah they were soldiers but so what? A life is a life. Half the Isreali fatalities were friendly fire anyway, they have hurt themselves almost more then Hamas has.

Some 500 innocent civilians dead, if you can't take a step back and and feel sadness and remorse for those who lost their lives for doing nothing wrong then you are a lost cause. Isreal has a right to defend itself but they were way out of line.

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Three times as many Isreali's have died since the attack started, yeah they were soldiers but so what? A life is a life. Half the Isreali fatalities were friendly fire anyway, they have hurt themselves almost more then Hamas has.

Some 500 innocent civilians dead, if you can't take a step back and and feel sadness and remorse for those who lost their lives for doing nothing wrong then you are a lost cause. Isreal has a right to defend itself but they were way out of line.

Since when did I say that I don't feel remorse over those who've died? Any loss of life is tragic. However, you also cannot dwell on that fact, and let that stop Israel from completing their mission. Were there civilian casualties in WWII? Of course. But that didn't stop the Allies from finishing the job, and it shouldn't stop Israel from completing the job.

Also, you cannot honestly say that the Palestinian people did nothing wrong. They elected a group into power whose sworn purpose is the destruction of Israel, and whose activities include firing rockets at innocent Israelis. They allow terrorists to make rocket launching pads inside their homes and villages. If the Palestinian people truly rejected Hamas terrorists and truly did nothing wrong, they would be much MORE supportive of Israel. They would cooperate, turn in any weapons caches that are hiding inside homes, turn in Hamas terrorists to Israeli officials. But until they stop harboring these terrorists, and until they vote out the terrorist group Hamas, you cannot say that they are all doing nothing wrong.

How are they out of line? I want to know, if you were in this situation, what would you do? Would you just sit back and let rockets fly into your towns? Please suggest an alternative to the current invasion that would serve the purpose of eliminating the threat from Hamas, and I will listen. Until then, don't criticize Israel for being "out of line" for eliminating this scum Hamas from the face of the earth.

Edited by matcat1116

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Just because you have been attacked by terrorists does not mean you have carte blanche to do whatever you would like to defend yourself. This has been the M.O. of the Bush administration and Israel for the past 8 years at least. I'm tired of it and I think the American People are tired of it as well. I'm not going to pretend like War isn't messy and civilians don't get hurt but Israel's response is over the line by any reasonable measure of collateral damage during warfare.

The fact that they have stopped days before Obama's inauguration indicates to me that they know what they are doing is unreasonable and are preparing for the next stage in American foreign policy, which they presume will not be as forgiving toward reckless preemptive anti-terrorism measures.

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Just because you have been attacked by terrorists does not mean you have carte blanche to do whatever you would like to defend yourself. This has been the M.O. of the Bush administration and Israel for the past 8 years at least. I'm tired of it and I think the American People are tired of it as well. I'm not going to pretend like War isn't messy and civilians don't get hurt but Israel's response is over the line by any reasonable measure of collateral damage during warfare.

The fact that they have stopped days before Obama's inauguration indicates to me that they know what they are doing is unreasonable and are preparing for the next stage in American foreign policy, which they presume will not be as forgiving toward reckless preemptive anti-terrorism measures.

Simply sad and amazing.

Terrorist = good

Defending yourself against terrorism = bad

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Since when did I say that I don't feel remorse over those who've died? Any loss of life is tragic. However, you also cannot dwell on that fact, and let that stop Israel from completing their mission. Were there civilian casualties in WWII? Of course. But that didn't stop the Allies from finishing the job, and it shouldn't stop Israel from completing the job.

Also, you cannot honestly say that the Palestinian people did nothing wrong. They elected a group into power whose sworn purpose is the destruction of Israel, and whose activities include firing rockets at innocent Israelis. They allow terrorists to make rocket launching pads inside their homes and villages. If the Palestinian people truly rejected Hamas terrorists and truly did nothing wrong, they would be much MORE supportive of Israel. They would cooperate, turn in any weapons caches that are hiding inside homes, turn in Hamas terrorists to Israeli officials. But until they stop harboring these terrorists, and until they vote out the terrorist group Hamas, you cannot say that they are all doing nothing wrong.

How are they out of line? I want to know, if you were in this situation, what would you do? Would you just sit back and let rockets fly into your towns? Please suggest an alternative to the current invasion that would serve the purpose of eliminating the threat from Hamas, and I will listen. Until then, don't criticize Israel for being "out of line" for eliminating this scum Hamas from the face of the earth.

WWII was different on so many levels, how can you even begin to compare them? Hamas as powerful as Germany? Really?? because that's what you are implying by saying the Allies had to finish the job in the same way Israel must. Comparing a massive world war between the worlds most industrialized countries to the Isreali - Hamas conflict is absurd.

How should Israel defend itself? I'm not sure I don't have all the answers. Just because I don't know the right way, or the moral way doesn't mean it's wrong to speak out against a disproportionate response. I think I good start is how they acted today, after they declared a ceasefire and they were fired upon, the immediately went in a surgically destroyed the cites that fired the missiles. What it comes down to is this, if your best option of "defense" is to attack a territory with a 50%+ civilian casualty rate then you need to reassess the way you protect yourself.

Simply sad and amazing.

Terrorist = good

Defending yourself against terrorism = bad

Why do you try to antagonize so much? You know damn well no one is saying that.

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WWII was different on so many levels, how can you even begin to compare them? Hamas as powerful as Germany? Really?? because that's what you are implying by saying the Allies had to finish the job in the same way Israel must. Comparing a massive world war between the worlds most industrialized countries to the Isreali - Hamas conflict is absurd.

But the basis is still the same. Israel must finish the job of eliminating the people that want to destroy Israel, and will continue to attack Israel until they achieve that.

How should Israel defend itself? I'm not sure I don't have all the answers. Just because I don't know the right way, or the moral way doesn't mean it's wrong to speak out against a disproportionate response. I think I good start is how they acted today, after they declared a ceasefire and they were fired upon, the immediately went in a surgically destroyed the cites that fired the missiles. What it comes down to is this, if your best option of "defense" is to attack a territory with a 50%+ civilian casualty rate then you need to reassess the way you protect yourself.

For the last time, there's no such thing as a disproportionate response. Please tell me the last time a country had to make sure they only killed as many people as their enemy did. Point to me the last time that a civilian count stopped a country from defending itself. That's right, only when it's Israel is the "disproportionate response" claimed. There's no disproportionate response, there's a country that's tired of having thousands of rockets falling on their villages, and will use their advanced weaponry to take out the terrorists.

How can you have no idea of the right thing to do, yet criticize Israel? It's like criticizing me for driving a certain way, and when I ask you what I should do, you say "I don't know, just not what you're doing". How is Israel going to eliminate Hamas without attacking their territory? Everyone is so quick to criticize Israel for its actions, well I invite ANYBODY to suggest an alternative that will achieve the objective of eliminating Hamas.

That's right. Didn't think so.

Any loss of life is tragic, but as I said, civilian casualties are necessary. Let us remember that it's ISRAEL spending millions of dollars to develop technologies for their weapons that allow accuracy down to the foot. Let us remember that it's ISRAEL making sure that every strike hits only the intended target. Let us remember it's HAMAS that's firing indiscriminantly at innocent villages, even kindergartens, and HOPING that they hit civilians. Let us remember it's HAMAS that purposely integrates itself into the Palestinian villages to MAXIMIZE Palestinian casualties. Any criticism of this in Europe? Any rallies in European cities calling for punishment of Hamas for trying to kill both Israeli and Palestinian citizens?

No.

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But the basis is still the same. Israel must finish the job of eliminating the people that want to destroy Israel, and will continue to attack Israel until they achieve that.

For the last time, there's no such thing as a disproportionate response. Please tell me the last time a country had to make sure they only killed as many people as their enemy did. Point to me the last time that a civilian count stopped a country from defending itself. That's right, only when it's Israel is the "disproportionate response" claimed. There's no disproportionate response, there's a country that's tired of having thousands of rockets falling on their villages, and will use their advanced weaponry to take out the terrorists.

How can you have no idea of the right thing to do, yet criticize Israel? It's like criticizing me for driving a certain way, and when I ask you what I should do, you say "I don't know, just not what you're doing". How is Israel going to eliminate Hamas without attacking their territory? Everyone is so quick to criticize Israel for its actions, well I invite ANYBODY to suggest an alternative that will achieve the objective of eliminating Hamas.

That's right. Didn't think so.

Any loss of life is tragic, but as I said, civilian casualties are necessary. Let us remember that it's ISRAEL spending millions of dollars to develop technologies for their weapons that allow accuracy down to the foot. Let us remember that it's ISRAEL making sure that every strike hits only the intended target. Let us remember it's HAMAS that's firing indiscriminantly at innocent villages, even kindergartens, and HOPING that they hit civilians. Let us remember it's HAMAS that purposely integrates itself into the Palestinian villages to MAXIMIZE Palestinian casualties. Any criticism of this in Europe? Any rallies in European cities calling for punishment of Hamas for trying to kill both Israeli and Palestinian citizens?

No.

Stop making sense.

You're confusing the Jew haters.

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That's right. Didn't think so.

No.

Maybe you shouldn't answer your own questions, I don't agree with any of your logic at all so please don't pretend has is you nailed the coffin shut with your air tight argument.

How can you have no idea of the right thing to do, yet criticize Israel? It's like criticizing me for driving a certain way, and when I ask you what I should do, you say "I don't know, just not what you're doing". How is Israel going to eliminate Hamas without attacking their territory? Everyone is so quick to criticize Israel for its actions, well I invite ANYBODY to suggest an alternative that will achieve the objective of eliminating Hamas

I suggested an alternative, maybe you just decided to skip it. I'm not sure it will work but I consider surgical strikes on the sites that launched the rockets to be appropriate levels of response. Just because I don't know doesn't mean it's wrong to speak out against an terrible injustice. When Russia cut off europe from it's oil supplies; for the sake of argument say Europe decided to start bombing Russian cities in response, I have no idea what the best way to have solve that problem is, but I would speak out against a terrible reaction from Europe in the same manner.

Not having the answers doesn't mean justification for what someone else does.

For the last time, there's no such thing as a disproportionate response. Please tell me the last time a country had to make sure they only killed as many people as their enemy did. Point to me the last time that a civilian count stopped a country from defending itself. That's right, only when it's Israel is the "disproportionate response" claimed. There's no disproportionate response, there's a country that's tired of having thousands of rockets falling on their villages, and will use their advanced weaponry to take out the terrorists.

No such thing as a disproportionate response? So if a group of Canadian terrorists crossed the border and blew up a few buildings in Buffalo (Sorry LOTCB) and the US responded by nuking Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and Calgary you wouldn't consider that a "disproportionate response"?

You know damn well a line exists between what is an acceptable level of retaliation and what is not. Pretending otherwise is ridiculous. If you want to argue that Israel was well within it's right to kill 600 civilians then you better start coming up with a defense and explanation for it, not hide behind "casualties of war because there is no such thing as a disproportionate response".

Any loss of life is tragic, but as I said, civilian casualties are necessary. Let us remember that it's ISRAEL spending millions of dollars to develop technologies for their weapons that allow accuracy down to the foot. Let us remember that it's ISRAEL making sure that every strike hits only the intended target. Let us remember it's HAMAS that's firing indiscriminantly at innocent villages, even kindergartens, and HOPING that they hit civilians. Let us remember it's HAMAS that purposely integrates itself into the Palestinian villages to MAXIMIZE Palestinian casualties. Any criticism of this in Europe? Any rallies in European cities calling for punishment of Hamas for trying to kill both Israeli and Palestinian citizens?

If Israel cannot distinguish between civilians and militants then they have no business dropping a single bomb. If you justify the entire operation based on 3 Israeli's civilian deaths, then why doesn't that justify what Hamas is doing to avenge their some 600 innocent dead? The idea that Israel is somehow safer today then they were 3 weeks ago is laughable, they bought themselves a small lull and gave the Arab world a rallying cry.

This is not condoning terrorist, this is condemning attacks on innocent people on both sides. And actually there is plenty of criticism around the world for Hamas, most countries consider them a terrorist organization, not a country. But yea, think what you want.

You're confusing the Jew haters.

Being Jewish does NOT mean blind support for whatever Israel does.

Edited by squishyx

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Simply sad and amazing.

Terrorist = good

Defending yourself against terrorism = bad

That's an absolutely ridiculous and inaccurate breakdown of what I wrote.

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No such thing as a disproportionate response? So if a group of Canadian terrorists crossed the border and blew up a few buildings in Buffalo (Sorry LOTCB) and the US responded by nuking Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and Calgary you wouldn't consider that a "disproportionate response"?

You know damn well a line exists between what is an acceptable level of retaliation and what is not. Pretending otherwise is ridiculous. If you want to argue that Israel was well within it's right to kill 600 civilians then you better start coming up with a defense and explanation for it, not hide behind "casualties of war because there is no such thing as a disproportionate response".

Yeah, I don't know where you get your news from, but last I checked there have been no nukes set off by Israel. The Canadian government is not controlled by the terror group. Israel has not just randomly attacked cities, they have been trying to use strategical strikes on their targets. That had to be the worst analogy I've heard in a while.

This is the thing you don't get. You view this as, "Israel killed 600 people, they're the evil side". I simply cannot understand people that say that there's a "level of retaliation" that's acceptable, and a level that's not. So let me get this straight. If Israel conducted a much smaller offensive, killed only 300 Palestinians, and left the Hamas infrastructure intact and ready to shoot more rockets, it'd all be okay, because Israel didn't cross a "line of retaliation"? It'd be okay because the response by Israel would be "more fair"?

The most nonsensical line I hear is "Israel should not cross a line, they've committed a disproportionate response". This is not a game that Hamas is playing. THIS IS WAR. This is a terror group shooting rockets at millions of innocent Israelis, and this is Israel doing what is necessary to protect its citizens. There's no "proportionate response", because the mission isn't just to kill as many Palestinians as Israelis have died. The mission is to destroy the terrorist infrastructure using tactical strikes and to end the terror on Israel cities.

If Israel cannot distinguish between civilians and militants then they have no business dropping a single bomb. If you justify the entire operation based on 3 Israeli's civilian deaths, then why doesn't that justify what Hamas is doing to avenge their some 600 innocent dead? The idea that Israel is somehow safer today then they were 3 weeks ago is laughable, they bought themselves a small lull and gave the Arab world a rallying cry.

This is not condoning terrorist, this is condemning attacks on innocent people on both sides. And actually there is plenty of criticism around the world for Hamas, most countries consider them a terrorist organization, not a country. But yea, think what you want.

1) Israel uses the most advanced weapons possible to ensure only Hamas terrorists are killed. Once again, it's the TERRORISTS that do their best to mix in civilians into the death count. THE BLOOD FROM EVERY PALESTINIAN DEATH IS ON HAMAS' HANDS.

2) It's not simply "3 civilian deaths", it's the dozens killed and thousands wounded since 2001 by Hamas terrorist attacks. It's the constant attacks on millions of innocent Israelis. Your idea that the operation is justified by 3 Israeli deaths is just naive.

3)Why do you think of this as a game? You don't understand the bigger picture, all you see is "well, the death toll on one side is greater than the other, so that side must be wrong". This isn't a game to kill as many Palestinians as there are dead Israelis, this is a military operation to rid Gaza of Hamas terrorists and murders, along with Hamas infrastructure. That's why the idea of comparing death tolls is plain silly. It's not a competition to see if Israel can kill Palestinians, it's a military operation to kill terrorists that have been attacking Israel for years.

4)Israel probably could be safer today if it was allowed to finish the mission, rather than taking heckles from people like you over the last 3 weeks. International support and pressure has a great effect, you know.

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Yeah, I don't know where you get your news from, but last I checked there have been no nukes set off by Israel. The Canadian government is not controlled by the terror group. Israel has not just randomly attacked cities, they have been trying to use strategical strikes on their targets. That had to be the worst analogy I've heard in a while.

Well maybe it was the worst analogy you have heard in a while because it wasn't an analogy at all.

In no way was I comparing my fictitious example to anything. I was using it to debunk your idea that there is no such thing as a disproportionate response. I think you have softened somewhat on that stance, so maybe you agree a line does exist, just that Israel hasn't come close to crossing it yet.

The most nonsensical line I hear is "Israel should not cross a line, they've committed a disproportionate response". This is not a game that Hamas is playing. THIS IS WAR. This is a terror group shooting rockets at millions of innocent Israelis, and this is Israel doing what is necessary to protect its citizens. There's no "proportionate response", because the mission isn't just to kill as many Palestinians as Israelis have died. The mission is to destroy the terrorist infrastructure using tactical strikes and to end the terror on Israel cities.

If the cost of Israeli security is a 50% civilian casualty rate than it is not acceptable. If all that high tech advanced missiles you keep talking about (and make no mistake, the Israeli air force is second to none in the world) can't do better then 50% civilian casualty rate then they have no business carrying out any attacks.

4)Israel probably could be safer today if it was allowed to finish the mission, rather than taking heckles from people like you over the last 3 weeks. International support and pressure has a great effect, you know.

Yea Israel really caved to heckling :rolleyes: They do as they please in that region with no regard to what the outside world thinks. I'm not saying that's Necessarily a bad thing, I have relatives in Israel and I understand the notion of defending your people, but I have no problem calling out both injustices on both sides. I don't disagree with some of your other statements but you are rambling at this point.

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