All MLB Thread

[NJDevs4978]

Oh, I could have sworn Philly was on the WC too, maybe cause we were there around the same time.

So does John Smoltz season so far prove the gigantic disparity between the AL and the NL? I mean we have seen major changes with CC, Lee, and Penny, but Smoltz took it to a new level tonight.

That or the Red Sox just handled him wrong (or both), he was coming off a major injury. I don't know how much time he had in the minors to rehab there but it clearly wasn't enough.

[nmigliore]

Smoltz shut down the Padres* for 5 innings.. yeah he struck out 9.. but man its only 1 start. people are judging such small sample sizes.. at least wait until these guys get to 6-7 starts.

* - the padres are last in the majors in runs, they have the worst team batting average in the majors, and they have the 2nd worst team OPS in the majors (ahead of cincinnati).

edit: but yeah there is a disparity, i dont think anyone could argue that. CC and Lee are solid examples.. Penny was pretty bad last year in the NL but i think he was hurt.

Edited August 24, 2009 by nmigliore

[DH26]

Smoltz shut down the Padres* for 5 innings.. yeah he struck out 9.. but man its only 1 start. people are judging such small sample sizes.. at least wait until these guys get to 6-7 starts.

* - the padres are last in the majors in runs, they have the worst team batting average in the majors, and they have the 2nd worst team OPS in the majors (ahead of cincinnati).

edit: but yeah there is a disparity, i dont think anyone could argue that. CC and Lee are solid examples.. Penny was pretty bad last year in the NL but i think he was hurt.

look at matt holliday too...goes from great with Colorado to okay with the A's to Babe Ruth with STL. basically the entire STL pitching staff shows it too. Pineiro, Carpenter (though he's obviously improved since his time in Toronto), Lohse, Smoltz. All horrendous in the AL and now a good pitching staff.

Not to mention the yankees signings of Jaret Wright and Carl Pavano...

[nmigliore]

look at matt holliday too...goes from great with Colorado to okay with the A's to Babe Ruth with STL. basically the entire STL pitching staff shows it too. Pineiro, Carpenter (though he's obviously improved since his time in Toronto), Lohse, Smoltz. All horrendous in the AL and now a good pitching staff.

Not to mention the yankees signings of Jaret Wright and Carl Pavano...

i agree of the disparity between the leagues (the point in my last post was i wouldn't use smoltz's 1 start vs SD as an example that there is a disparity).. but i can point out a few flaws in a couple of those examples:

re: holliday - coors field is such a hitter's haven, the A's stadium is quite the opposite from what i know.. also the oakland lineup was very weak, at least in st louis hes got pujols batting behind him.

re: the st louis pitching staff - dave duncan is one of the best pitching coaches. he is responsible for those guys IMO.. and lohse was very mediocre in the NL until last year.. duncan changed pineiro into more of a groundball pitcher too.. and again on smoltz - hes only made 1 start and it was vs the worst offensive team in baseball and it was in a pitcher's park .. there is a reason why the guys in the st louis rotation have been successful and i just dont buy its all because they are in the NL. i think duncan deserves alot of credit.

Edited August 24, 2009 by nmigliore

[DH26]

i agree of the disparity between the leagues (the point in my last post was i wouldn't use smoltz's 1 start vs SD as an example that there is a disparity).. but i can point out a few flaws in a couple of those examples:

re: holliday - coors field is such a hitter's haven, the A's stadium is quite the opposite from what i know.. also the oakland lineup was very weak, at least in st louis hes got pujols batting behind him.

re: the st louis pitching staff - dave duncan is one of the best pitching coaches. he is responsible for those guys IMO.. and lohse was very mediocre in the NL until last year.. duncan changed pineiro into more of a groundball pitcher too.. and again on smoltz - hes only made 1 start and it was vs the worst offensive team in baseball and it was in a pitcher's park .. there is a reason why the guys in the st louis rotation have been successful and i just dont buy its all because they are in the NL. i think duncan deserves alot of credit.

yeah I read some thing about Smoltz where they changed his stance on the rubber or something, so I take that back. Bad job outta the Red Sox on that one I guess. But going from a bad lineup to a good one doesn't make one into Lou Gehrig here. You don't just go from mediocre to great by changing lineups. If you put somebody like Mike Lowell into the Yankees lineup, even though the protection's better, he's still Mike Lowell and won't improve that much. A lineup can only do so much for one guy

[Devils731]

But going from a bad lineup to a good one doesn't make one into Lou Gehrig here. You don't just go from mediocre to great by changing lineups. If you put somebody like Mike Lowell into the Yankees lineup, even though the protection's better, he's still Mike Lowell and won't improve that much. A lineup can only do so much for one guy

That's pretty much borne out by the research on that subject too. You basically hit who you are. Things like Runs and RBIs are very dependent on who hits before and after you but the stuff you control doesn't change very much.

[nmigliore]

actually i just realized its pujols hitting in front of holliday.. so i guess we should forget about that. i thought it was holliday and then pujols, but its the other way around.

but lets be realistic, holliday is gonna come back down to earth eventually.. hes not going to keep hitting .398/.457/.694 as a cardinal. im sure you can find examples of players heating up when they get traded, see jeff francoeur who couldn't hit a lick in atlanta this year.. also im not sure if you are calling holliday's numbers in oakland mediocre but a 124 OPS+ is not mediocre.

edit: as for the lineup thing.. its all a mystery it seems. there are articles for it and articles against it. i always had the general belief a batter will see better pitches to hit with a good hitter hitting behind him (ie: if a pitcher goes 3-2 on a hitter he will surely challenge him with a fastball if an a-rod or pujols is on deck... but if its a brian schneider on deck he might throw him a 3-2 curveball or slider since schneider is not really a threat on deck)..

Edited August 25, 2009 by nmigliore

[DH26]

actually i just realized its pujols hitting in front of holliday.. so i guess we should forget about that. i thought it was holliday and then pujols, but its the other way around.

but lets be realistic, holliday is gonna come back down to earth eventually.. hes not going to keep hitting .398/.457/.694 as a cardinal. im sure you can find examples of players heating up when they get traded, see jeff francoeur who couldn't hit a lick in atlanta this year.. also im not sure if you are calling holliday's numbers in oakland mediocre but a 124 OPS+ is not mediocre.

not mediocre on their own, but compared to what he usually does they were

[nmigliore]

not mediocre on their own, but compared to what he usually does they were

so you mean "what he usually does" like what he did with colorado? dude holliday's big numbers as a rockie were a product of coors field.. lets see over the past 4 years:

holliday's 2008 OPS road: .892

holliday's 2008 OPS home: .997

holliday's 2007 OPS road: .860

holliday's 2007 OPS home: 1.157

holliday's 2006 OPS road: .819

holliday's 2006 OPS home: 1.132

holliday's 2005 OPS road: .729

holliday's 2005 OPS home: 1.002

holliday's average OPS on the road over the past 4 years: .825

holliday's average OPS at home over the past 4 years: 1.072

holliday's OPS this year with Oakland: .831

like i said, "what he usually did" as a colorado rockie was benefit from coors field. his OPS on the road over the past 4 years and his OPS with oakland this year are almost the same.... thats not a coincidence either.

Edited August 25, 2009 by nmigliore

[DH26]

so you mean "what he usually does" like what he did with colorado? dude holliday's big numbers as a rockie were a product of coors field.. lets see over the past 4 years:

holliday's 2008 OPS road: .892

holliday's 2008 OPS home: .997

holliday's 2007 OPS road: .860

holliday's 2007 OPS home: 1.157

holliday's 2006 OPS road: .819

holliday's 2006 OPS home: 1.132

holliday's 2005 OPS road: .729

holliday's 2005 OPS home: 1.002

holliday's average OPS on the road over the past 4 years: .825

holliday's average OPS at home over the past 4 years: 1.072

holliday's OPS this year with Oakland: .831

like i said, "what he usually did" as a colorado rockie was benefit from coors field. his OPS on the road over the past 4 years and his OPS with oakland this year are almost the same.... thats not a coincidence either.

ok, ok, you win. A lot of guys stopped putting up crazy numbers in that stadium since the days of Vinny Castilla and Dante Bichette looking like all time greats. But I guess Holliday is one of that group then

[nmigliore]

ok, ok, you win. A lot of guys stopped putting up crazy numbers in that stadium since the days of Vinny Castilla and Dante Bichette looking like all time greats. But I guess Holliday is one of that group then

im not trying to kill holliday here and say say he isn't good though lol, i mean away from coors field his OPS is still very good.. but i think hes somewhat overrated because of his big numbers he put up with colorado. stick him in a regular park and his OPS will probably be around .800-.840 (again thats still very good though lol)

Edited August 25, 2009 by nmigliore

[DH26]

im not trying to kill holliday here and say say he isn't good though lol, i mean away from coors field his OPS is still very good.. but i think hes somewhat overrated because of his big numbers he put up with colorado. stick him in a regular park and his OPS will probably be around .800-.840 (again thats still very good though lol)

ok let's just agree that he's an above avg/good player made very good or great by coors field and attribute this surge with the cards to a hot streak

[nmigliore]

ok let's just agree that he's an above avg/good player made very good or great by coors field and attribute this surge with the cards to a hot streak

sounds about right.

[nmigliore]

remember when the dodgers won the NL West in june?

yeah... their lead is now down to 2 games. here come them rockies

[Beezer34]

*sigh*

4th Game for Pedro.

...another start, AT HOME on a cloudy night... another rain delay at the start of the 3rd... another early exit for Pedro... (another win for the Phil's) Next start; Sept 3rd (at home) -vs- Giants. Though the forecast hasn't been released yet for next week, I'm predicting heavy rain in Philadelphia... at around 8:00pm.

[nmigliore]

the giants have a terrible lineup, even with the additions of freddy sanchez [whose on the DL anyway] and ryan garko [whose been bad since coming to the giants]. i think he should be able to shut them down.

[nyrsuck26]

Kazmir traded to Angels

Big move there. Guess the Rays are giving up on this season.

[nmigliore]

Kazmir traded to Angels

Big move there. Guess the Rays are giving up on this season.

yeah they have been wanting to shed salary.. assuming they didn't pay any cash in the deal, they saved a little over $22.5M .. kazmir's velocity and k-rate have been on the decline the past 3 years and hes had a very rough season this year (last year wasn't all that great either). i think its a smart move for TB since they save so much money and get a few nice prospects in return, plus kazmir looks to be on some kind of decline anyway (even though hes only 25) and hes a risky arm to have that much money tied up on for a small market team.

Edited August 29, 2009 by nmigliore

[Beezer34]

The Giants have a terrible lineup, even with the additions of Freddy Sanchez (whose on the DL anyway) and Ryan Garko. (whose been bad since coming to the giants) I think he should be able to shut them down.

Extend the Olive'branch, and give the man some credit. -You know you expected Pedro to be on the DL by now.

In 16 innings; he's got 8 ER's... 14 K's... 16 hits... and only 3 walks. Very good? -No. But again... not bad at all either. The main issue at hand, (when Philadelphia signed him) was his durability. He's started 4 games so far, 2 cut short due to rain. (and he's still averaging 4IP per game) If not for the two rain-delay's, you're looking at maybe 4 more IP. (an elevated average of 5 IP per game) You also may be looking at 2 more 'W decisions, on both those two wins for the Philies...... and @ a 4-0 record for him to start HIS season... aren't we all being a little hard on Pedro here? He's scheduled to start his 5th game next week, and has yet to lose. How many predicted that?

[nmigliore]

Extend the Olive'branch, and give the man some credit. -You know you expected Pedro to be on the DL by now.

In 16 innings; he's got 8 ER's... 14 K's... 16 hits... and only 3 walks. Very good? -No. But again... not bad at all either. The main issue at hand, (when Philadelphia signed him) was his durability. He's started 4 games so far, 2 cut short due to rain. (and he's still averaging 4IP per game) If not for the two rain-delay's, you're looking at maybe 4 more IP. (an elevated average of 5 IP per game) You also may be looking at 2 more 'W decisions, on both those two wins for the Philies...... and @ a 4-0 record for him to start HIS season... aren't we all being a little hard on Pedro here? He's scheduled to start his 5th game next week, and has yet to lose. How many predicted that?

im sorry, but you are just ridiculous. hasan must be right - you are probably pedro's agent .. his durability? dude its like 4 starts, relax... you are making it like the guy lasted 30+ starts this year which WOULD be impressive coming from him, but thats not the case here at all; its 4 starts! his record and the fact he has yet to lose a game is all because hes gotten good run support (fwiw, a pitcher's win total is a horrible measuring stick of effectiveness). tell me - do you really think a guy who puts up a 4.50 ERA and only lasts about 5 innings every start is going to win every game and never lose?

btw.. hes 2-0, not 4-0.. i dont know where you are reading that from. and you update this thread for every pedro start, give it a rest man.. at least let him get 10 starts under his belt and then come back and we can discuss this. 4 or 5 starts, 2 of which were cut short due to rain, are too dumb to bother judging.

Edited August 29, 2009 by nmigliore

[Beezer34]

relax... you are making it like the guy lasted 30+ starts this year which WOULD be impressive coming from him, but thats not the case here at all; its 4 starts! his record and the fact he has yet to lose a game is all because hes gotten good run support.

...not to beat a dead horse, but I think many felt that even 5 starts wasn't in the cards for Pedro. He had a very serious injury, and at 38...

Again, maybe from all the talk radio I listen to, coupled with my many Met fan friends saying "he won't last 20 innings" has caused me to root for him a little harder. I just think thus'far, he's doing admirable.

btw.. hes 2-0, not 4-0.. i dont know where you are reading that from.

I think you misread what I said bro:

"If not for the two rain-delay's, you may be looking at 2 more 'W decisions, on both those two wins for the Philies...... and @ a 4-0 record for him to start HIS season... aren't we all being a little hard on Pedro here?"

What I meant was; the games where he left early, weren't based on him playing poorly. He left both games with the lead. Both games (as you said) the Philies gave him run support. Had it not rained, Pedro could've received the decision, therefore making him 4-0.

[nmigliore]

...not to beat a dead horse, but I think many felt that even 5 starts wasn't in the cards for Pedro. He had a very serious injury, and at 38...

Again, maybe from all the talk radio I listen to, coupled with my many Met fan friends saying "he won't last 20 innings" has caused me to root for him a little harder. I just think thus'far, he's doing admirable.

you are taking what people say on the radio too seriously... they are just poking fun at the fact pedro couldn't stay healthy as a met. i dont understand why thats so hard to figure out, i already told you that last time we debated this.. and talk radio guys (joe beningo? evan roberts? craig carton?) are very far from insiders or experts.

I think you misread what I said bro:

"If not for the two rain-delay's, you may be looking at 2 more 'W decisions, on both those two wins for the Philies...... and @ a 4-0 record for him to start HIS season... aren't we all being a little hard on Pedro here?"

What I meant was; the games where he left early, weren't based on him playing poorly. He left both games with the lead. Both games (as you said) the Philies gave him run support. Had it not rained, Pedro could've received the decision, therefore making him 4-0.

yeah i did misread that, but still - so what if hes 4-0? with a 4.50 ERA and an average of 5 IP per start he can easily be 0-4. like i said, a pitcher's win total is a bad measuring stick for a pitcher's effectiveness.. look at these examples:

-Ted Lilly won 17 games last year, thats as much as CC Sabathia won, but come on.. Lilly is not on Sabathia's level..

-Bronson Arroyo won 15 games last year, thats as much as Mark Buehrle won. Big difference between those 2.

-Matt Cain was 7-16 in 2007 and 8-14 in 2008.. does that make him a bad pitcher just because his record stunk? Not at all.

-Livan Hernandez.. yes Livan Hernandez, the guy who had a 6.05 ERA last year, was 13-11!!

Edited August 29, 2009 by nmigliore

[NJDevs4978]

btw.. hes 2-0, not 4-0.. i dont know where you are reading that from. and you update this thread for every pedro start, give it a rest man.. at least let him get 10 starts under his belt and then come back and we can discuss this. 4 or 5 starts, 2 of which were cut short due to rain, are too dumb to bother judging.

Seriously...I knew why the thread got bumped last night before I ever looked into it. Rain delays or no rain delays, 16 IP is no proof of any new-found durability after three years mostly not pitching

Even if he finished out the season without injury (which would be an accomplishment in itself) and averaged his usual 5-6 innings a start, that's only around 50-60 total IP. And barring injury he's not going to be in the playoff rotation.

Again, maybe from all the talk radio I listen to, coupled with my many Met fan friends saying "he won't last 20 innings" has caused me to root for him a little harder.

You're causing me to do the same in reverse. I actually like Pedro, Phillie uni or not but am getting a bit tired of your obsessive hype here so I'm tempted not to root for him now

Edited August 29, 2009 by Hasan4978

[Prucenterrules]

Even if he finished out the season without injury (which would be an accomplishment in itself) and averaged his usual 5-6 innings a start, that's only around 50-60 total IP. And barring injury he's not going to be in the playoff rotation.

I don't see him lasting the rest of the season without injury.

[Beezer34]

I give up... I simply give up. All I was trying to say was that Pedro is starting off on the right foot, nothing more. I never said he's pitching Cy Young numbers. In fact, whenever I do mention his statistics, I headline it with; "average at best". I said hearing it from the insiders and Mets fans alike, has caused me to root for him more than usual. (despite even being a Yankee fan) Kennedy & McDonald are great baseball conjecture's. To discredit them, is extremely ignorant. And Roberts, Beningo, and Carton are your own kind! METS FANS! So why even bother bringing them up, when I already sited them as (partly) my reasons being in the first place? No sooner than I complimented Pedro in this thread, I have been called; ridiculous... absurd... Pedro's Agent... and dumb, since. Not-with-standing, I still hear analyst's share my POV: "Pedro has gotten started off on the right foot in Philly" -Chris Singleton. "He hasn't played in a year, yet threw 90+ pitches in both wins, out of his first three starts." -Marc Narducci. "I think Pedro's more sturdy than people think." -Orestes Destrade. "Pedro's showing the Mets that he's still got stuff left in the tank." -Mike Francesa. "I'm very impressed in how Pedro has looked thus'far." -John Kruk.

Are we all Pedro's Agent? Are we all ridiculous and absurd? Or are we all just NOT Mets fans? Because from the Mets fans, all I hear is: "Pedro is terrible and is finished" ---- "His win against the Cubs was only due to run support" ---- "He only had a good start vs Arizona, because it wasn't in the bandbox" ---- "He never would have beaten the Mets, if not for their Double'A lineup" ---- "If not for the rain delay, he would've lost to the Braves" ...and now we're even getting excuses ready for future starts: "With Sanchez on DL and Garko playing poor, he'll beat the Giants."

But I guess you can't give a guy credit until he can "last the whole 162" -or- until he "starts 30+ games". (despite him being signed in August) One way or another, I'm done here, I tap out.

I will say this though, you Mets fans are funny.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Beezer34