metallidevils

A plane crashed on September 22, 2004

136 posts in this topic

OK, so after last night, I've developed a new theory.

Jacob told Richard that the island was all that was keeping Smokey from leaving the island, which would then essentially create hell on earth. In the other reality where the plane doesn't crash, the island is destroyed. Therefore I think that all of the characters are in what they would consider their own personal hell:

Jack has a terrible relationship with his son, like his father had with him (though that was remedied at the end).

Kate gets caught.

Sawyer is a cop, which in the 1st plane of reality, he would hate himself for.

Locke is in his wheelchair.

Charlie's on drugs still.

Ben has no power that in the first reality he so desperately craves, though Alex is happy in the end.

Hurley has his money, though to be fair, he is very successful...which I think he would dislike in the first plane of reality

Jin and Sun are together, but their marriage is in shambles.

The Japanese guy from the temple lives in California, therefore he must speak English, which he has stated he dislikes because it feels dirty on his tongue (this may be a bit of a stretch).

So that's my new theory about the 2nd universe. What do you guys think?

I would disagree with that because while not all of their lives are perfect, they certainly aren't in personal hell. In fact, a lot of their lives have improved. Sawyer is certainly living a much better life as a Cop than before the crash, where he was a con-man. Locke still is happily married with his wife and has a good relationship with his father. I would even say that Ben's life didn't turn out all that bad either. Hurley definitely has a good thing going for him.

Kate and Sayid still have very messed up lives.

Perhaps, your alternate life depends on whose side they each chose in this war between Jacob and Smokey. This is a theory that one TV critic has been floating around.

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It's the last season and I'm still confused with the episodes left down to single digits :blink:

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I would disagree with that because while not all of their lives are perfect, they certainly aren't in personal hell. In fact, a lot of their lives have improved. Sawyer is certainly living a much better life as a Cop than before the crash, where he was a con-man. Locke still is happily married with his wife and has a good relationship with his father. I would even say that Ben's life didn't turn out all that bad either. Hurley definitely has a good thing going for him.

Kate and Sayid still have very messed up lives.

Perhaps, your alternate life depends on whose side they each chose in this war between Jacob and Smokey. This is a theory that one TV critic has been floating around.

This is a good point.

It's clearly developing into the eternal 'good vs evil' struggle, and everyone is taking sides. I'm still not sure how Whitmore ties into that. They are looking for Jacob's replacement (Hurley or Jack I'm guessing), the Smoke is taking the form of Locke, and I'm wondering now if Richard is going to be 'replaced', possibly by Hurley. I can't help but think Sayid will be playing a huge role in the end of this whole mess after his lack of reaction to Kate being attacked. Also, it will be interesting to see where Sawyer ends up. Possibly the alternate reality contains clues to all of this?

And I miss Desmond.

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This is a good point.

It's clearly developing into the eternal 'good vs evil' struggle, and everyone is taking sides. I'm still not sure how Whitmore ties into that. They are looking for Jacob's replacement (Hurley or Jack I'm guessing), the Smoke is taking the form of Locke, and I'm wondering now if Richard is going to be 'replaced', possibly by Hurley. I can't help but think Sayid will be playing a huge role in the end of this whole mess after his lack of reaction to Kate being attacked. Also, it will be interesting to see where Sawyer ends up. Possibly the alternate reality contains clues to all of this?

And I miss Desmond.

I started worrying that since someone would just replace Jacob if he died then someone will have to just replace MIB if he dies/leaves the Island.

I also think Sun and Jin aren't married in the new reality...she went by her maiden name at customs - I dont think they're that modern. i just figured he was her body guard or something... that's still a pretty hot relationship! :uni:

I also don't think anyone is unhappy in the new timeline. I've been debating in my mind WHEN exactly the timeline is happening...maybe it's AFTER the on island stuff we're seeing now - like jughead didn't cause the new timeline but whatever happens in the finale does. I think that's too easy but that's more or less my thought.

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I've kinda thought that maybe they are using the alt timeline as sort of an epilogue of sorts...once MiB is gone time resets and we are seeing life without the possibility of the island but it seems contrived and arbitrary.

I'm more of the opinion that its now kind of a fantastical wonderland that's going to melt before them all...everything will be good for the remaining candidates that are on the island...Jack IS the father he never had, Sawyer is on the right side of the law, Hurley is the luckiest man in the world, Sun (who I think is the candidate, not Jin) is gaining her independence...although I'm undecided on Sayid but maybe its because the 'darkness' has already overtaken him...maybe kind of like the perfect Matrix for the good guys that is going to come crashing down.

But I'm still sticking with my theory I've had since season 5 finale....we'll see Jack and "Locke" sitting and talking almost mirroring the first scene we saw of Jacob and MiB....Hurley will replace Richard and maybe Kate or Sawyer (whichever is still alive) will replace Ben/Whidmore as leader of the others...

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I'm as confused as anyone as to what's going on. I mean I see the good vs. evil aspect, but anything more than that is total guesswork.

I do wonder, though, is there any possibility that the MIB is really the good guy and Jacob is really the bad guy -- that we've all been led to believe the opposite of what is true?

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I'm as confused as anyone as to what's going on. I mean I see the good vs. evil aspect, but anything more than that is total guesswork.

I do wonder, though, is there any possibility that the MIB is really the good guy and Jacob is really the bad guy -- that we've all been led to believe the opposite of what is true?

While the fundamentals and the enjoyable part of the show is completely in the WTF aspect, i think, from a story perspective, the writers are really just trying to focus on Jack and Co. I think that the whole mythology of the island and the like is added to create a broader and more epic feel. To use the Matrix as an example again, I think that's where the movies failed, they had the story of Neo and then tried to make the sequels into this epic story about right, wrong, and this longstanding battle between man and machine but in turn completely destroyed the who, what, when, and why of the Neo story line...anyway, that's just my take on it...

As for the who's good and who's bad, I think it was a little ambiguous at first but last night's episode really cemented the answer, at least to me, within the final scene. Given what the writers told us in the scene with Jacob and Richard and the wine bottle only to have MiB break it in the final scene pretty much put a stamp on where Jacob and MiB are on the scale of good and bad, although they do tend to blend into shades of gray every so often.

of course the above is just a rant of randomness about the show because its tax season and the wife is working 12 hr days and no one at work watches Lost so I'm left to discuss this kind of thing with my 2 yr old who has just recently started running around the house with his big foam Devils hand screaming "lets go debilssss!!" :D

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I'm as confused as anyone as to what's going on. I mean I see the good vs. evil aspect, but anything more than that is total guesswork.

I do wonder, though, is there any possibility that the MIB is really the good guy and Jacob is really the bad guy -- that we've all been led to believe the opposite of what is true?

If Jacob is meant to be a biblical reference, then there is the chance that the MIB is his fraternal twin brother Esau, which would explain the animosity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob

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As for good and bad -- I think we have no way of knowing. The castaways have to listen to their inner selves and not listen to what either dude has to tell them.

As far as guessing who's good and who's bad based on face value up to now ... nearly impossible. I started thinking this could be like Frailty - it seems like a movie these guys would like - very Stephen Kingesque and it's about two brothers who see their fathers zealous, psychotic behavior very differently. I had been suspecting something like this and when not-Locke said his mother was crazy I decided I'd like them to go that way :evil: But they can't because the set up is backwards and I dont want to ruin the movie so that's all I can say.

Esau's and Jacob's fates were also controlled by their mother's deception. so I have a real problem calling either good or bad if they ARE going to go in that direction. I dont want them to -- I think it's forced, like back-peddaling to explain stuff they had no intention of ever explaining in such detail. Star Trek the series was great because they left much unexplained. People try to explain it but they dont WANT it explained fro real. Life IS there is always a devine mystery and in a way it annoys me the way these guys are bending over backwards to answer questions that never had answers. It's fun too though so... :noclue: I hate the Jacob and Esau story. Basically the religion is based on deception - the linage of the people is not as it should be --- so either it's WRONG or none of it even matters Esau was picked as hero but dad gave t=it all to Jacob thinking he WAS Esau. So when Esau comes home from huitnghe's told he's got to go because even though his dad said I give everything to you ESAU because he said it to Jacob it's all Jacob's.... makes ZERO sense holds ZERO justice...makes any pre-destined line a mockery - or it means sh!tty things happen for a reason and Jacob was always meant to be #1 despite always coming from a place of weakness... it's a STUPID PARABLE AND I DISLIKE IT! :angry::rant::argh:

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There are two problems, PK, that I have found with people saying "we don't know who is good or bad yet"...first is the narrative and where it has lead us. We can't forget that this is still a story being told and unfortunately for some it isn't a story where Jacob is the protagonist. Even if that part of the story is left open ended, which I don't think it can be simply because of the nature of the story's true epicenter Jack, we are already given the conclusion, based on Tuesday's episode, as to which roles Jacob and MiB are a part of. We were given a story by a character that is believed to be true, i.e. Jacob's metaphor with the bottle of wine. However, the writers then gave the audience a reassurance that the said metaphor was true by having another character illustrate the metaphor, to a degree, without knowledge of the metaphor, in this case MiB smashing the bottle. It's classic storytelling and had the man in black confronted any character with knowledge of the metaphor only to try to dissuade them then it could be seen as a stalemate that is left up to the audience to decide. But it wasn't in this case, which is why the scene was so important. Sure there can still be some ambiguity as to how far into the "gray area" each of the two characters will go but as a whole it should seem obvious where they lie along the spectrum of good and bad.

The second problem harkens back to who the protagonist is as well as the dramatic structure of a story. Jacob and MiB are merely sub characters and based on the time left within the show (8hrs) the dramatic structure just doesn't leave enough time to meander back and forth or sit and wait for a "shocking twist" relating to these two characters. The table has been set and we are reaching the climactic finale. While there may not be a true falling action and/or resolution, as the writers might want to leave the rest up to us to decide the central theme is still about Jack and the rest of the survivors of Oceanic flight 815...The eventual battle between Jack and Smokie McLocke is nearing and we all know its going to happen based on what we've previously been set up with. And that's the story the writers have been building to. The emotional toll that battle will take on the audience lies in knowing who to root for. It renders that central story moot if half of the audience is rooting for the guy who could possibly be good but does bad things or a guy who seems to be bad but might just want to free.

And I know the writers love mixing up the story's mythology with that of fictional, historical, and biblical stories I don't really buy into the Jacob/Esua parable as being what we have seen between Jacob and MiB. That's no different than basing your entire opinion of Sawyer on Twain's story. Sure the writers used that as backbone or even a mental note for which the audience can relate its too contrived and unoriginal which is not at all what Lost has strived to be.

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As for the who's good and who's bad, I think it was a little ambiguous at first but last night's episode really cemented the answer, at least to me, within the final scene. Given what the writers told us in the scene with Jacob and Richard and the wine bottle only to have MiB break it in the final scene pretty much put a stamp on where Jacob and MiB are on the scale of good and bad, although they do tend to blend into shades of gray every so often.
We were given a story by a character that is believed to be true, i.e. Jacob's metaphor with the bottle of wine. However, the writers then gave the audience a reassurance that the said metaphor was true by having another character illustrate the metaphor, to a degree, without knowledge of the metaphor, in this case MiB smashing the bottle.

At the risk of sounding dumb, can you -- or someone -- explain to me that wine bottle scene and the metaphor of which you speak? LOL

Maybe when I first watched it I was too tired to grasp the full meaning. Either that, or I'm a bit dim (I'm sure my wife would choose the latter).

smile.gif

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It was the scene where Jacob was explaining his side of the story to Richard. He basically likened hell, malevolence, or darkness to the wine in a glass bottle he was holding. Jacob told Richard that the wine or "darkness" is swirling in the bottle trying to get out but it couldn't because then it would spread. He then said that the island was the cork and kept that darkness from coming out of the bottle. Later on we see Richard give a white stone to MiB at the request of Jacob and it flashes back to the Hurley/Richard scene. But the final scene of the episode flashes back to Jacob and MiB again where Jacob asks why MiB wants to kill him and he says he wants to be free...Jacob does the song and dance about someone will replace him if MiB were to kill him to which MiB responds, "then I'll kill them." But lastly Jacob gives MiB the bottle of wine and says its something to pass the time and then says "see you around." Under his breath MiB says, "sooner than you think." And after Jacob leaves he holds the bottle by the neck and smashes it against the log he's sitting on....

That was my main point. MiB has no knowledge of the metaphor so its not something he's trying to say or do to persuade someone against believing. But he basically confirms the metaphor to the audience...and if the man who is trying to protect the island and keep evil from spreading isn't the good guy then I wouldn't begin to be able to guess who is.

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It was the scene where Jacob was explaining his side of the story to Richard. He basically likened hell, malevolence, or darkness to the wine in a glass bottle he was holding. Jacob told Richard that the wine or "darkness" is swirling in the bottle trying to get out but it couldn't because then it would spread. He then said that the island was the cork and kept that darkness from coming out of the bottle. Later on we see Richard give a white stone to MiB at the request of Jacob and it flashes back to the Hurley/Richard scene. But the final scene of the episode flashes back to Jacob and MiB again where Jacob asks why MiB wants to kill him and he says he wants to be free...Jacob does the song and dance about someone will replace him if MiB were to kill him to which MiB responds, "then I'll kill them." But lastly Jacob gives MiB the bottle of wine and says its something to pass the time and then says "see you around." Under his breath MiB says, "sooner than you think." And after Jacob leaves he holds the bottle by the neck and smashes it against the log he's sitting on....

That was my main point. MiB has no knowledge of the metaphor so its not something he's trying to say or do to persuade someone against believing. But he basically confirms the metaphor to the audience...and if the man who is trying to protect the island and keep evil from spreading isn't the good guy then I wouldn't begin to be able to guess who is.

Got it, thanks. My mind must be slipping. I watched the whole scene on Tuesday night and forgot the major details of it by the next day.

doh1.gif

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OK, so I'm watching the midnight Lost re-runs on ABC right now, and its the episode where Kate, Sawyer, and Alex rescue Alex's boyfriend, Carl. If you remember, Carl's watching a mind-control propaganda movie, and one of the images that flashes says "God loves you as He loved Jacob." I don't know, but that may be a sign towards the whole Biblical idea.

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OK, so I'm watching the midnight Lost re-runs on ABC right now, and its the episode where Kate, Sawyer, and Alex rescue Alex's boyfriend, Carl. If you remember, Carl's watching a mind-control propaganda movie, and one of the images that flashes says "God loves you as He loved Jacob." I don't know, but that may be a sign towards the whole Biblical idea.

I think that had a lot to do with Ben....as we've seen he didn't have as much info from Jacob as he led us to believe. He seemed to be running his own agenda a little bit. Unfortunately Richard seems as though he believed Ben a little too...

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I've been thinking Jin must be the candidate 1) because Sun isn't Kwon by birth (she's Paik or however you spell it) 2) It explains how Jin survived the freighter blast. yeah yeah and I knwo it really doesn't matter anyhow because Jack is the candidate we all KNOW because of various narrative devices employed by the writing team :blahblah: ( :giggle: )

Underdog - yeah yeah -- So we know Jack is there to replace Jacob and there's really nothing else beyond that, if you want to look at it like that. There will be nothing more significant - no substantial denouement. All this built around has just been to make the replacement more compelling. Maybe I wasn't clear in my original post. I dont feel like I have to be if everyone is really watching, you know? My bad I guess :evil:

It's pretty cut and dry -- We have the Who pretty well settled, we have the What settled as well, we even have a good idea that the How is going to be a battle --- so the only unknown is WHY? It's just fun to ponder Will we ever see the catastrophic results if he doesn't? Will we see catastrophic results if he DOES? Especially since we have what, at present, seems like a concurrent timeline.

I'm not saying we're waiting for some mid-season, or mid-finale game changer - I'm talking epilogue. I think there's plenty of time for Charleton Heston to be riding his horse on the beach only to find the Statue of Liberty broken and submerged in the sand. Why waste time toying with stuff like that? because it's amusing :noclue:

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Jack being there to replace Jacob is purely speculation on my part. I just think its going to pan out that way. In reality, and for a number of reasons, it could very well end up being Sawyer, Hurley, or Jin/Sun (which, I agree think its Jin as well) although I would say Sayid is out of the picture. My only real "it has to be" type of statement was that who is good and who is bad has been pointed out. But hey if you took my long few posts about why Jacob is good and how MiB is bad in terms of writing narrative as why Jack has to be the replacement then ok. But of course the writers could easily pull some sort of twist and turn everything on its head completely changing everything so far. In that respect, who is good and who is bad could still be left up in the air. I've always been a fan of a good story nothing more and nothing less.

As for the epilogue...I believe a lot of what happens after the dust settles will be left up to the audience. I believe I've heard a podcast with the writers saying they wanted the main characters to have their stories wrapped up but that could mean a bunch of things.

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I'm so glad Desmond is back. "I luv yih, Pennuh!"

And the scene where Desmond tries to save Charlie from the car is the best holy poo moment of the season so far.

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Faraday...er Daniel Widmore might've hit it head on with the "this isn't the life we are supposed to be living" thing...seems like a matter of time till the alt world is somehow overwritten or merged with the "real" world...very Matrixy stuff..

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I guess that epilogue theory can be thrown out.

I would think so but then again, its not entirely unimaginable to have the "alt" reality become the epilogue of the "real" reality...depending on how its written but yeah I'd say probably not...

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Faraday...er Daniel Widmore might've hit it head on with the "this isn't the life we are supposed to be living" thing...seems like a matter of time till the alt world is somehow overwritten or merged with the "real" world...very Matrixy stuff..

Yep, and clearly Mrs. Widmore (and I'd assume Charles Widmore) know this.

Also, the sides people are taking on the Island seem to be having a direct affect on their alternate lives. For example, Sayid has gone to the 'dark side' and in the alternate reality, the woman he loves is married to his brother and he has been forced to kill again.

Meanwhile, Hurley is rich and the happiest he's ever been, and Jack has improved his relationship with his son.

Eh, just an idea.

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So...at least Lost was pretty awesome tonight.

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So...at least Lost was pretty awesome tonight.

Yeah, I needed that after the game ended. SOMEONE didn't let us down...

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