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ghdi

Marty is now the "co-#1" goaltender - sharing duties

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If you want to say that Hasek was better than Brodeur, I have no problem with you. You need to give Brodeur more credit for sustained excellence though.

But is that sustained excellence from the system? Hasek sustained excellence on some pretty underwhelming Buffalo teams and defense but always kept them competative. Just saying it is hard to tell if Brodeur is THAT GOOD of a goalie when in his prime, he was on a Devils team that could have had a crash test dummy in net and still win.

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And how many games a season did Patrick Roy play? His career high was 68 games. Marty has played in at least 70 games a season 12 times in his career. Kinda easy to pad stats when you play many more friggin games.

Oh please...he gets no credit for being durable enough to play 70+ games a year? And how many Vezinas has he won since Hasek, three, four? Along with three Cups, one (well really two) gold medals I'd say that's more than enough proof of his excellence.

His low GAA was easy to get when you have 2-1, 1-1, and 1-0 games druing the late 90's.

And how about his still-low GAA and save percentage the last five years with declining defenses? I'm sorry, no defense with Colin White and Mike Mottau as your top pairing can be considered elite. There's no way the Devils three years ago should have even made the playoffs and they wound up with home-ice in the first round. Where Marty's overplaying has hurt has been in April since the lockout but before the lockout he could play 70+ and go through a playoff run just fine.

Edited by NJDevs4978
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But is that sustained excellence from the system? Hasek sustained excellence on some pretty underwhelming Buffalo teams and defense but always kept them competative. Just saying it is hard to tell if Brodeur is THAT GOOD of a goalie when in his prime, he was on a Devils team that could have had a crash test dummy in net and still win.

Why are you hung up on Hasek? He and Brodeur aren't the only goalies to play hockey in the past 20 years. My point is this: Plug in Chris Osgood. Does he have the same career Brodeur did? I don't think so.

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The GM's are not dumb and they see that Hasek was standing on his head every game while Marty was sitting back enjoying only about 20 shots a game.

What you really need to concern yourself with is how other goalies, guys who actually play the game, regard Brodeur and I'm pretty sure he is universally regarded by all active goaltenders as one of the best.

NJDevs has a point. Last year the Devils D was regarded as "The No Name Defense" and they weren't all that hot. Remember Martin was out for a good portion of the season, but Brodeur still managed to be a big factor in our wins. I personally think he began to decline sharply during the Olympics.

Edited by CarpathianForest

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There are the defenders of Marty and the non defenders. Does it matter? When confronted today with the coach's decision what would you expect Marty to say? I would expect the politically correct statement like he gave. We need to realizes that Marty is done regardless if Marty's ego will accept that. He has been failing for the past couple of years. The signal to him was the Olympics and he didn't accept that choice so he came back to the Devils to prove something in the remaining games and all he proved was that Canada was correct.

Edited by LucifersDog

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So.... Marty was only good because he had an amazing defense and system.

See, he won Vezinas after all those amazing defensmen left but that's only because he played so many games. You see, he played a lot of games with a less talented team and won a Vezina... product of the system.. See??

Yep. I don't get it either.

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But is that sustained excellence from the system? Hasek sustained excellence on some pretty underwhelming Buffalo teams and defense but always kept them competative. Just saying it is hard to tell if Brodeur is THAT GOOD of a goalie when in his prime, he was on a Devils team that could have had a crash test dummy in net and still win.

i've been watching the devs since 87, and I would never describe it this way. Without question Brodeur's play enabled his D to play the way they did. One strength produced another strength. Neither would have been as good without the other. That not rose-colored glasses, that just the way it was.

Universally the greatest in te game lauded him with praise and selected him to help Canada win its first Olympic Gold in a half-century.

Yeah, its hard to tell if he was that good !

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i've been watching the devs since 87, and I would never describe it this way. Without question Brodeur's play enabled his D to play the way they did. One strength produced another strength. Neither would have been as good without the other. That not rose-colored glasses, that just the way it was.

Very, very well-put.

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Acommplishments padded by playing way too many games a season, having a great defense in front of him for a vast majority of his career, and playing for a good part of his career when ties do not exist. He is a great goalie, and I will give you that, but his stats are very padded. His low GAA was easy to get when you have 2-1, 1-1, and 1-0 games druing the late 90's. Why else would you explain he never got a Vezina then when Hasek got them and Marty had superior stats? The GM's are not dumb and they see that Hasek was standing on his head every game while Marty was sitting back enjoying only about 20 shots a game.

I've already proven you wrong on the 2-1, 1-0, 1-1 nonsense in another thread, but go ahead, keep posting myths. And the defense he's had in front him post-lockout has hardly been great...yet he managed to match or exceed his career norms for much of that stretch.

The one thing I'll give you was Hasek was the best pure puck-stopper the game has ever seen. He had a six-year stretch where he posted a .930 save%. That's just obscene. Hasek also got a very late start to his career, which hurt his overall win totals.

Obviously you've got an agenda when it comes to Brodeur and you'll put a negative spin on whatever you have to to make Brodeur sound less impressive than he was. I don't really get it, but whatever makes you happy.

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I think Marty has been fine enough. Sure a few problems but he hasnt' caught a break and no one is there to buy him ANY space. Frankly - he DOES need a little help out there. You need space and no one is giving him a fargin' inch f space to be who he is. You all know who he is -- it's annoying he's God or selfish pig, wonderfully grounded superstar or over-confident slacker who's decided he's won enough. Ridiculous -- no one every sees just the clear amazing player that lies in between.

The last thing that will help him turn it around (yeah -- or even WANT to <_<) is fans booing. :rolleyes: and what is he supposed to say? Yeah, I guess I just suck now! I've been mastering the art of stinking up the joint! Any award for that? that's the stat I want to bust wide open now - the stinking rotten goal tending stat 'cause I'm just a selfish kind of guy!

<_< You're all ingrates.

Does this board EVER get sick of pointing fingers? I'm having a pretty nice time all things considered watching hockey this year. the only thing that sucks beyond all belief is the Flyers doing well... I'm praying PRAYING for a choke. Guys I just really hate Pronger... I mean so much. I'm not angry motivated rage -- but whipped dog well f**k you then trauma-ed out.

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He has been declining since the last cup.

Marty's save% by season, up to the '03 Cup win: .917, .906, .910, .906, .906, .914

For the same amount of regular seasons since: .917, .911, .922, .920, .916, .916

There goes another myth.

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Marty's save% by season, up to the '03 Cup win: .917, .906, .910, .906, .906, .914

For the same amount of regular seasons since: .917, .911, .922, .920, .916, .916

There goes another myth.

BOOYA!

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Take Pippen and the other supporting cast away from Jordan and do you think he still wins all those titles? I can't believe people are questioning whether Brodeur is that good or not. Yeah, he's been lucky to be part of an amazing organization and surrounded by great players but I don't buy the argument that any goalie could have led us to those Cups. With a completely healthy lineup and everyone else playing with some heart his game raises too. He's a vicim of this dump of a season, but that doesn't take away that he's the best to ever play.

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Marty is no Michael Jordan. Personally while not to the same degree I believe the Devils would have succeeded without Marty -- and they never excelled the way Jordan had the Bulls going... just never. I HATE those comparisons - that's why you're all so up in arms now :argh:

It's always been a team effort with Marty's success, not so much with Jordan. That's all it needs to be though - he doesn't HAVE to steal every game.

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Marty is no Michael Jordan. Personally while not to the same degree I believe the Devils would have succeeded without Marty -- and they never excelled the way Jordan had the Bulls going... just never. I HATE those comparisons - that's why you're all so up in arms now :argh:

It's always been a team effort with Marty's success, not so much with Jordan. That's all it needs to be though - he doesn't HAVE to steal every game.

Marty IS Michael Jordan in that Marty is among the greatest players to ever play his position (OK, Jordan is probably the greatest), and like Jordan he needed other good players to do their job in order to win. That's team sports, baby.

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No, Marty is not Michael Jordan. you can team sport it all you want but no one would quibble with Tiger Woods is Michael Jordan of golf. An argumnetative moron woudl quibble if someone said Michael jordan is the Tiger Woods of basketball :blahblah: Scotty Pippin :blahblah: THAT is not the point I'm making.

Marty cannot carry the team -- even with a decent support system in front of him he cannot and never has carried a team. It is that very misconception and over-estimation that has put the team and him in the position they are in. THAT is the point that MUST be understood. All stats aside -- all talent aside Broduer is incapable of carrying a team.

And he should never be expected to. I have never understood people insisting he ever did insisting he ever should and now holding him accountable for not doing so. He's a goalie. end of story. He HAS taken the position way out of it's confines literally and figuratively. But he's not a team carrier. Jordan IS.

Edited by Pepperkorn

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So what if Marty Brodeur couldn't carry a team? You can count on one hand the number of hockey players who "carried" their team to a championship. You could argue that Roy did it twice. Who else?

Hasek carried his team to NO championships.

Who exactly are you comparing Brodeur to ... Roy? OK, fine. Roy carried teams. He was better.

It doesn't change the fact that Brodeur was a great player, an all-timer. Not a product of a system, not lucky to play for NJ but a cog of a winning team for 16 years with a handful of Vezinas. Greatness.

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So what if Marty Brodeur couldn't carry a team? You can count on one hand the number of hockey players who "carried" their team to a championship. You could argue that Roy did it twice. Who else?

Hasek carried his team to NO championships.

Who exactly are you comparing Brodeur to ... Roy? OK, fine. Roy carried teams. He was better.

It doesn't change the fact that Brodeur was a great player, an all-timer. Not a product of a system, not lucky to play for NJ but a cog of a winning team for 16 years with a handful of Vezinas. Greatness.

This right here.

It's sad that it's coming to an end, but I can't believe how quick people are to abandon him. He clearly isn't winning, he knows it, he's frustrated, he's trying to play through it. What else do people want from him? I swear some people wouldn't be satisfied unless he committed seppuku in the crease after a loss.

None of us have any idea how hard it is to be one of the all time greats and to have to deal with the fact that your skills are declining rapidly and the team around you isn't good enough to help. It's not like flipping a switch.

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This right here.

It's sad that it's coming to an end, but I can't believe how quick people are to abandon him. He clearly isn't winning, he knows it, he's frustrated, he's trying to play through it. What else do people want from him? I swear some people wouldn't be satisfied unless he committed seppuku in the crease after a loss.

None of us have any idea how hard it is to be one of the all time greats and to have to deal with the fact that your skills are declining rapidly and the team around you isn't good enough to help. It's not like flipping a switch.

I never said Marty is not a good goalie, I think he is quite good. Is he the all-time best? Well that is something we will never know since he never carried a team to a cup. What I do know is that for most of his career he never had to stand on his head each game he played. I am not quick just because he has the most wins (coupled with the fact that he played most of his career in the trap-era, played at least 70 games a season, and played a good part of his career in an era with no ties) to accept that he is the best-ever. I honestly would give that to either Roy or Hasek at this point. However, any mention of this I am called names and accusing me of abandoning him.

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So what if Marty Brodeur couldn't carry a team? You can count on one hand the number of hockey players who "carried" their team to a championship. You could argue that Roy did it twice. Who else?

I agree 100% as my post attests. If you were hoping you were somehow arguing with Dev84 through me or that I agree with anything he's been posting - sorry -- we're on the same side here. I think the Michael Jordan argument someone threw out there is piss poor strategy and only serves to deflect and weaken our cause here.

The point isn't that Marty is comparable Michael Jordan -- the point is he's not nor should he be expected to be.

and I really dont care about basketball so ...sounds like you need to go to a Bulls site to argue whether Pippin gets short shrift in the annals of history :P

Edited by Pepperkorn

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I honestly would give that to either Roy or Hasek at this point.

That's fair. That's no insult to Brodeur, at least I don't think it is. "System goalie" is the insult.

and I really dont care about basketball so ...sounds like you need to go to a Bulls site to argue whether Pippin gets short shrift in the annals of history :P

No thanks. I'd rather drop it, too!

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I never said Marty is not a good goalie, I think he is quite good. Is he the all-time best? Well that is something we will never know since he never carried a team to a cup. What I do know is that for most of his career he never had to stand on his head each game he played. I am not quick just because he has the most wins (coupled with the fact that he played most of his career in the trap-era, played at least 70 games a season, and played a good part of his career in an era with no ties) to accept that he is the best-ever. I honestly would give that to either Roy or Hasek at this point. However, any mention of this I am called names and accusing me of abandoning him.

Look at all those D men blocking shots in front of Brodeur. :rolleyes:

One thing that is noticeable throughout these saves is his quick glove hand. He hasn't had that quick glove hand since his injury.

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What I DO think has been proven is simply that Marty cannot thrive in any environment. He needs to be ahead of the pack to have a clear view of things. There is just so much he can play through. And THAT is weak... really weak, and we have every right to be disappointed in him for that. I did expect him to be solid happy Marty and to not let things get him down so obviously from the start. But he adopted an "I'm doing my part" little tude and now that it's worn on him so far that he can't even do his part.... I understand. and I understand some attitudes he's seen in the past he's trying to avoid having. But he's GOT to just suck it up not be all honest and say "You know, this isn't fun and I'm not in the mood to suck it up" if he's not doing his part he's got to suck it up and to be honest Marty and the guy we know.... I'd have expected him to be more positive and enjoy even being mired in the sh!t. He always talked like he just loves hockey... now he's mired... first time ever he is personally mired along with his team. Not fun -- but it' IS hockey so you do have to find a way to love it or you DO NOT love hockey -- you only love success. and even that's OK. Just not what i expected from a true Devils man.

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That's fair. That's no insult to Brodeur, at least I don't think it is. "System goalie" is the insult.

How is that an insult though? He was a major block of the organization, but he like any player can be replaced. This was shown when Clemmer took over for 50 or so games a couple of seasons back.

Again I still think he is an above average goalie and is quite talented, but he is not the singular reason why the Devils have been successful and he has never had to be outstanding day in and day out for a large chunk of his career.

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