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Marty is now the "co-#1" goaltender - sharing duties

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Devsman84 - you're being unreasonable. If you don't understand how that is then I'm not going to further clarify it for you.

It is a joke to say Brodeur is merely the product of a system. He's far more than that. it makes much more sense that Clemmer's success was right place right time right to streak. Streaks are far more common than your "system goalie" garbage. As the keeper of the Ineffable System -- one effable is an ultra-talented goalie who can work WITH his defence in addition to through them. Marty has done both consistently for years now. He IS that good. It's just nonsense to try to deny or explain it away. He has been so consistently great for so many years that you do not have the data to back up your opinion. the fact he's denied you that data proves pretty much that yeah -- he IS that good. Just relax and accept it even if it puts the Devils organization in a far tougher spot knowing they have to replace that. Not really going to happen is it?

You're closer to winning agreement saying it's an injury combined with age.

Also feel it -- feel that sick feeling in your stomach -- allowing the feeling enables you to work through it. Denying it -- well everyone denied our defensive issues and now we see where we are.

Scott Stevens = irreplaceable

Scott Neidermayer = irreplaceable

Marty Brodeur = irreplaceable.

There -- it's out there -- deal with it == chew on it -- then move on as best you can OK?

Edited by Pepperkorn

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Devsman84 - you're being unreasonable. If you don't understand how that is then I'm not going to further clarify it for you.

It is a joke to say Brodeur is merely the product of a system. He's far more than that. it makes much more sense that Clemmer's success was right place right time right to streak. Streaks are far more common than your "system goalie" garbage. As the keeper of the Ineffable System -- one effable is an ultra-talented goalie who can work WITH his defence in addition to through them. Marty has done both consistently for years now. He IS that good. It's just nonsense to try to deny or explain it away. He has been so consistently great for so many years that you do not have the data to back up your opinion. the fact he's denied you that data proves pretty much that yeah -- he IS that good. Just relax and accept it even if it puts the Devils organization in a far tougher spot knowing they have to replace that. Not really going to happen is it?

You're closer to winning agreement saying it's an injury combined with age.

Also feel it -- feel that sick feeling in your stomach -- allowing the feeling enables you to work through it. Denying it -- well everyone denied our defensive issues and now we see where we are.

Scott Stevens = irreplaceable

Scott Neidermayer = irreplaceable

Marty Brodeur = irreplaceable.

There -- it's out there -- deal with it == chew on it -- then move on as best you can OK?

So you rather deny that Brodeur is a product of the system and believe that Clemmer was on a 50-game streak? Sorry, I just do not buy that and you are selling Clemmer short. Yeah Clemmer is not nearly as good as Brodeur, I will give you at least that much, but to say that the Devils happen to go on such a long successful streak without Brodeur the exact same time Clemmer happened to be in net is silly.

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Marty will always be considered "the best goaltender in NHL history" as far as NJ fans go however, he has not been what he has worked himself up to be all this time. Johan Hedberg I feel is a very solid back up and should get the shot to play as much as he is needed, which with the way Marty has been playing and how reliable he actually is, should be atleast 1 game a week IMO.

Scotty Clemmensen stepped up last season greatly when he was needed and played really really well but I still feel in the long run of things, Johan Hedberg is a stronger back up goaltender.

This is not the first time someone of Martys position has taken a plunge as far as their skill goes. It happens all the time. The best of the best are in the spot light, get injured and are never the same again and end up take a back seat in the franchise. I feel that there was a significant name in the MLB but for some reason, I am drawing a blank.

Edited by Quinn01

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I never said Marty is not a good goalie, I think he is quite good. Is he the all-time best? Well that is something we will never know since he never carried a team to a cup. What I do know is that for most of his career he never had to stand on his head each game he played. I am not quick just because he has the most wins (coupled with the fact that he played most of his career in the trap-era, played at least 70 games a season, and played a good part of his career in an era with no ties) to accept that he is the best-ever. I honestly would give that to either Roy or Hasek at this point. However, any mention of this I am called names and accusing me of abandoning him.

Agreed, Roy stole cups. Hasek NEVER stole a cup. He was a passenger when he got his name on it. Hasek was probably the best, but even he didn't steal a cup.

Also, 70 games a year shows incredible durability, both Hasek and Roy played in the trap or dead-puck era, and Brodeur passed the wins record even without shootout wins.

And again, if he's a product of the system, then there's no way he wins 3 Vezinas without Stevens, Nieds, etc. Yes, I know Clemmer played incredibly well when he was called on, but the ENTIRE team was playing way over their heads that year. They couldn't keep that up all year and they didn't. They limped into the playoffs on a big losing streak.

The point I'm making is that Brodeur is right up there with Hasek and Roy. Maybe not better, but definitely a top 5 all time in the same breath as Sawchuk, Plante, Dryden, etc.

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Agreed, Roy stole cups. Hasek NEVER stole a cup. He was a passenger when he got his name on it. Hasek was probably the best, but even he didn't steal a cup.

Also, 70 games a year shows incredible durability, both Hasek and Roy played in the trap or dead-puck era, and Brodeur passed the wins record even without shootout wins.

And again, if he's a product of the system, then there's no way he wins 3 Vezinas without Stevens, Nieds, etc. Yes, I know Clemmer played incredibly well when he was called on, but the ENTIRE team was playing way over their heads that year. They couldn't keep that up all year and they didn't. They limped into the playoffs on a big losing streak.

The point I'm making is that Brodeur is right up there with Hasek and Roy. Maybe not better, but definitely a top 5 all time in the same breath as Sawchuk, Plante, Dryden, etc.

I can at least agree with that statement. But to say that he is the absolute best all-time then I would have to argue with whoever says that.

Also I meant just Roy stole games, and not Hasek and you have pointed that out. I was not clear on that so I apologize.

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So you rather deny that Brodeur is a product of the system and believe that Clemmer was on a 50-game streak? Sorry, I just do not buy that and you are selling Clemmer short. Yeah Clemmer is not nearly as good as Brodeur, I will give you at least that much, but to say that the Devils happen to go on such a long successful streak without Brodeur the exact same time Clemmer happened to be in net is silly.

They did. Clemmer and the rest of the team played at a level they couldn't possibly keep up. Why couldn't Weekes buy a win at the same time if it was just the system? By the end of Clemmensens run, he wasn't playing well and the entire league had figured out that he had no lateral movement and a fairly weak glove hand. Weekes was starting to get more of the starts and had a personal 4 or 5 game win streak going. Clemmer was great, but that team rose up for him.

Do you remember how the whole team was playing the first few games Marty was back? They were unstoppable for a couple of weeks. It's just not possible to keep that up for 82 games plus playoffs.

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Yes, I know Clemmer played incredibly well when he was called on, but the ENTIRE team was playing way over their heads that year.

This. Clemmer benefitted from having a team in front of him that played their arses off on D. They knew that they had a backup in net and would need to step it up to help him and be successful.

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I can at least agree with that statement. But to say that he is the absolute best all-time then I would have to argue with whoever says that.

Also I meant just Roy stole games, and not Hasek and you have pointed that out. I was not clear on that so I apologize.

I wouldn't call Marty best all time, not when Roy won 3 Conn Smythes or whatever it was and 4 Cups, and not when Hasek at that .927 or whatever career save percentage on much worse teams.

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I wouldn't call Marty best all time, not when Roy won 3 Conn Smythes or whatever it was and 4 Cups, and not when Hasek at that .927 or whatever career save percentage on much worse teams.

This I totally agree with, but you and I still might get flamed by some for stating that.

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....not sure how this topic deformed into a; Brodeur's Legacy debate. :noclue:

Marty's been garbage this season, simple as that. He doesn't deserve to be the clear starter for the Devils. He's looked sloppy, he's looked old, he's looked slow.. no two ways about it. I commend the decision to have Co. #1 goaltenders the rest of the season. Rotate them both game-to-game, and whoever plays better.. plays more. -Period.

Now having said that, how does this season take away from 3 Stanley Cups.. 2 Olympic Gold Medals.. 4 Vezina's.. 5 Jennings.. 1 Calder Memorial.. 10 All`Stars.. 600+ wins.. 100+ shutouts.. a World Cup & Challenge Bowl? :huh:

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I love Marty, always will, but this season is lost and I think we need to see what we've got in the pipe. I'd love to see Jeff Frazee get 10-15 starts from here on, especially since the Devils seem to be playing at a level that's somewhere between the minors and the rest of the NHL so far this season. See what we've got, and answer the question if that's another hole coming or if we're set for Marty's retirement. And if Frazee turns into a dynamo in his turns, then extend it and leave him in. It's not too soon to start looking in house for who could be in nets for us for the '12-'13 season.

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So you rather deny that Brodeur is a product of the system and believe that Clemmer was on a 50-game streak? Sorry, I just do not buy that and you are selling Clemmer short. Yeah Clemmer is not nearly as good as Brodeur, I will give you at least that much, but to say that the Devils happen to go on such a long successful streak without Brodeur the exact same time Clemmer happened to be in net is silly.

YES I would deny it. We can agree to disagree, but I think all the flash in the pan goal tenders with one winning season (that'd be in the neighborhood of 82 games and sometimes playoffs included) kind of back up my claim more than your one single example of Clemmers 50 games. Couple that with the lack of any "system produced goalie pen" with more than one goalie of Broduer's caliber EVER. Also the fact no one else has been produced by our system before or since (please spare me the lame thats because Brodeur has been there the whole time - the whole what 15 years? Nice system -- even I don't give the system THAT much credit.

and I do not at all disagree that all good things must come to an end and Marty is undoubtedly on the down turn. but I'm not about to take anything away from him. Nor will I grant anything undue.

BALANCE people. Seriously :wacko:

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Agreed, Roy stole cups. Hasek NEVER stole a cup. He was a passenger when he got his name on it. Hasek was probably the best, but even he didn't steal a cup.

Also, 70 games a year shows incredible durability, both Hasek and Roy played in the trap or dead-puck era, and Brodeur passed the wins record even without shootout wins.

And again, if he's a product of the system, then there's no way he wins 3 Vezinas without Stevens, Nieds, etc. Yes, I know Clemmer played incredibly well when he was called on, but the ENTIRE team was playing way over their heads that year. They couldn't keep that up all year and they didn't. They limped into the playoffs on a big losing streak.

The point I'm making is that Brodeur is right up there with Hasek and Roy. Maybe not better, but definitely a top 5 all time in the same breath as Sawchuk, Plante, Dryden, etc.

Good post, Devil Dan.

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Agreed, Roy stole cups. Hasek NEVER stole a cup. He was a passenger when he got his name on it. Hasek was probably the best, but even he didn't steal a cup.

The point I'm making is that Brodeur is right up there with Hasek and Roy. Maybe not better, but definitely a top 5 all time in the same breath as Sawchuk, Plante, Dryden, etc.

..you can absolutely make a debate that both Roy & Hasek are ahead of Brodeur on a Top Whatever all-time list. They both have their own records and accolades that set them apart from eachother. For me, when you look at stats as opposed to records.. Dryden stands alone.

When the hockey world had learned of Dryden retiring at the young age of 32, they were shocked. Winning his 5th Stanley Cup & 5th Vezina the year he retired, Dryden left hockey in his prime, and at the top of his game. People look past the fact that when Dryden played.. he dominated. He wasn't some compiler type netminder, that logged high statistics over a 20 year career. He played only seven full seasons. 7 Seasons! :blink: And in 7 seasons, Dryden earned 5 Stanley Cups.. 5 Vezina Trophy's.. 2 World Cups.. (then called; the Canada Cup) ..1 Rookie of the Year Calder Trophy.. 1 Conn Smythe MVP.. 6 All-Star Games.. 1 IIHF World Championship.. nearly 50 Shutouts.. and a career GAA of 2.24 (which is stunning considering the era Dryden played) If Dryden had played a full career (by law of averages) he might've retired with 700 wins, and over 100 shutouts! Before he broke into the league, Dryden turned heads by winning an NCAA National Championship at Cornell University. But it wasn't until he competed in the NHL, that he became a household name.

Though I never had the honor of seeing the man play first hand.. for me, Ken Dryden's #1.

Edited by Beezer34

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