Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Triumph

A Thread In Praise of Mark Fayne

48 posts in this topic

Can you explain what this means? I know PMD stands for puck-moving defenseman, but I think it's ridiculous to call that a 'role'. Every defenseman moves the puck. I'm not being intentionally dense here, I don't think, I just think this is a term that gets thrown around here without anyone really knowing what it means.

frankly, i think many would equate it with points - thus they think that sheldon souray in his time was a PMD (which he wasn't). i think it's one of those things that you know it when you see it because it's NOT all about points. Paul Martin is a "puck moving defenseman" but there weren't really the points to back that up in many people's minds. andy greene IS a puck moving defenseman - he's just not that good at it.

hank tallinder is a puck moving defenseman.

mark fayne is a puck moving defenseman.

anton volchenkov and colin white are NOT puck moving defenseman.

you're asking for a guy who can skate the puck out of his zone, make the correct pass when needed to continue to generate offense, and many times most importantly, has the ability to bring the puck into the offensive zone.

when your 5 guys on the ice consist of, lets say, a white/salvador pair who will either bank the puck off the glass - send it up the boards or PERHAPS try a 5% success-rate stretch pass, the 3 forwards hardly ever have a chance to hit the offensive zone with speed or a plan. this is where you want that "PMD". there is also the desire to have a guy that can do something on the PP - but i know that's a role many have taormina slated for when he returns (likely next year).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you explain what this means? I know PMD stands for puck-moving defenseman, but I think it's ridiculous to call that a 'role'. Every defenseman moves the puck. I'm not being intentionally dense here, I don't think, I just think this is a term that gets thrown around here without anyone really knowing what it means.

I used it as shorthand, but I probably should have given a more detailed explanation. I agree, on it's surface, PMD, and everyone says, well any defenseman can move the puck. What the Devils lack is a defenseman with good skating ability and vision who has the passing capability to stretch opposition through the neutral zone and carry the puck as well if needed. I understand there may not be a lot out there, but I see a lack of that on this team. It isn't a role Tri, but it's a skill-set and quality.

Andy Greene is not a PMD. Anssi Salmela shows some occasional flashes, but he makes some stupid decisions and isn't consistent, with the decision-making or the passes. Tallinder is not either, too poor of a skater.

Niedermayer, Rafalski, and to a lesser extent, Paul Martin.

I don't currently see anyone on the roster that shows the kind of ability. Lemaire has already intimated that he sees that as a current liability on the roster and that is a need Lou will need to address.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think PMD is referring to a player like Sergei Zubov. A defenseman who can skate it out of his own zone, and/or make the correct pass to a foward from his own zone, and/or make the right play from the blue line in the offensive zone. At least, that's my interpretation of the term.

Yes.

Think of it as sort of a QB when the team has the puck. A guy who has the combination of skating ability, vision, and passing/decision-making to help develop plays or read plays and be responsible enough not to give pucks away or lose sight of easy chances in the offensive zone.

One of the reasons Kovy has at times looked diminished is because he's been asked to carry the puck through the neutral zone from his own end, when he should be on the receiving end and have somebody feeding him those attempts and sretching the forwards apart when they collapse back into their own end.

Early on with MacLean, opposing teams were just meeting us with ease and taking pucks away in the neutral zone without much effort.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While Fayne has gotten much better, he's not the only young defenseman in our orginazation "worth a damn" as you say. Taormina and Urbom have both shown potential. Not to mention you have Merril and Burlon on the way.

True, that was a poor choice of words on my part. What i meant to say was that imo he has been the only young defenseman to truly step up to the next level this season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's definitely been a great surprise at how well Fayne has done. I find it strange he seems to make such great choices in the offensive zone, when to pinch, when to shoot, when to pass, and then he still struggles at times in the defensive decisions, when to step up on a guy, when to lay back, etc... Not to say he's been a defensive liability, he's been fine, but the mistakes have mostly come due to poor thinking so I would expect poor thinking on both ends, like Salmela, rather than great at one end and iffy on the other.

Also, to echo it's really too bad Taormina went down. He was playing pretty well when the whole team, even the good players, was looking awful. It'd be interesting to see if his play would have gotten even better now that everyone else is playing better. I tend to suspect he, like everyone else, would look better in that circumstance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes.

Think of it as sort of a QB when the team has the puck. A guy who has the combination of skating ability, vision, and passing/decision-making to help develop plays or read plays and be responsible enough not to give pucks away or lose sight of easy chances in the offensive zone.

One of the reasons Kovy has at times looked diminished is because he's been asked to carry the puck through the neutral zone from his own end, when he should be on the receiving end and have somebody feeding him those attempts and sretching the forwards apart when they collapse back into their own end.

Early on with MacLean, opposing teams were just meeting us with ease and taking pucks away in the neutral zone without much effort.

see, this is where i get confused. the devils have never really had a player play the way you are suggesting. the devils never ran their up-ice offense through niedermayer and rafalski. sure, those guys make the first pass, and sometimes they won't pass the puck until they get into the offensive zone, but what you're suggesting just doesn't make very much sense. so i imagine you are going to be disappointed in taormina.

btw taormina's stats are not that good. he needs a ton of work in the d zone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

btw taormina's stats are not that good. he needs a ton of work in the d zone.

Everyone's numbers stunk then. Fayne, who we have a thread praising, would have looked horrific then, I'm guessing. Even defenseman we know can play in the NHL, Greene and Tallinder, looked like they couldn't play in the AHL.

Taormina was only -2 in 17 games, playing 20 minutes a night, when the team was horrible and getting no luck. That's pretty good.

Fayne is +1 in 31 games while playing 16 minutes a night, part of when the team is playing well and getting lots of luck. That's not bad either.

Taormin's relative Corsi is slightly higher than Fayne, but Taormina got more starts in the offensive zone, so that explains a lot of that....but more of Taormina's shifts ended in the offensive zone too, so there was effectiveness in where his shifts ended. Fayne's benefited from having some of the highest team shooting percentages while on the ice, while Taormina is hurt by the team having some of the worst shooting percentage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

see, this is where i get confused. the devils have never really had a player play the way you are suggesting. the devils never ran their up-ice offense through niedermayer and rafalski. sure, those guys make the first pass, and sometimes they won't pass the puck until they get into the offensive zone, but what you're suggesting just doesn't make very much sense. so i imagine you are going to be disappointed in taormina.

btw taormina's stats are not that good. he needs a ton of work in the d zone.

I disagree.

Niedermayer was frequently used in such a manner, often times going it on his own volition. Rafalski also tended to do it as well but not as frequently, particularly in 5-5 situations. You're clearly not understanding what I am trying to relay on the subject. Difference in understanding I guess, so I won't continue on this subject.

I agree on Taormina. There is some doubt there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Taormina is not a defenseman. He cant cut it in the defensive zone Hed be better off on the wing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PMD or not, we need a D-men that has a big shot like Rolston from the point. how many times does Kovy take the puck into the offensive zone and just suck eveyone away from the blueline? He then feeds it to the point only to have a wrist shot taken or a slapper that doesn't get through. we need a cannon back there

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone's numbers stunk then. Fayne, who we have a thread praising, would have looked horrific then, I'm guessing. Even defenseman we know can play in the NHL, Greene and Tallinder, looked like they couldn't play in the AHL.

Taormina was only -2 in 17 games, playing 20 minutes a night, when the team was horrible and getting no luck. That's pretty good.

Fayne is +1 in 31 games while playing 16 minutes a night, part of when the team is playing well and getting lots of luck. That's not bad either.

Taormin's relative Corsi is slightly higher than Fayne, but Taormina got more starts in the offensive zone, so that explains a lot of that....but more of Taormina's shifts ended in the offensive zone too, so there was effectiveness in where his shifts ended. Fayne's benefited from having some of the highest team shooting percentages while on the ice, while Taormina is hurt by the team having some of the worst shooting percentage.

you obviously know that i am not looking at plus minus when i say this.

the devils have been the same territorial team all season.

in games with taormina: +2.18 fenwick per game

total: +1.98 fenwick per game

the difference is basically all attributable to score effects.

there's also the fact that while taormina's shooting percentage was low, his goalie save percentage was inordinately high. when he went down with an injury most of the team were hovering in the 880s and yet he was somewhat inexplicably at 915. his save percentage on ice is still better than fayne's.

one thing that's interesting to consider is that players with a high zone finish are rewarded in that statistic for NOT scoring. i wonder if we jiggered fayne's shooting percentage to be as low as taormina's and take all the goals and call them positive zone finishes if we wouldn't see the same thing.

anyway, here's my issue with taormina: his corsi rel qoc is really low, basically meaning he was given the softest ice time. he did okay with that. we'll need more games to judge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Further points to Mark Fayne come via someone I know who attended the STH event today. When asked if he'd be willing to destroy Avery in Friday night's game, Fayne's response: "Ugh, I f*cking hate that guy."

And Fayne doesn't worry me when he's on the ice. I don't see him as a rookie defenseman, I see him as a defenseman. I trust his hockey sense and his play with the puck. He has little cough-ups now and then that bother me, and he's been caught behind the Devils' net at times, but I trust him on the ice way way WAY more than I trust Salmela.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Fayne has really filled the role the organization was hoping Fraser could the last couple of years.

Also, what is the word on Taormina? Any progress?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We shouldn't forget Eric Gelinas either. His mid-season trade to the Saint John Sea Dogs gives him a chance to play winning hockey, and a good shot to win the Q, and thus go to the Memorial Cup this year.

Actually, I had forgotton about Gelinas- thanks for that update. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Fayne has really filled the role the organization was hoping Fraser could the last couple of years.

not really - totally different skill sets. fraser was never looked at as anything more than a physical defenseman asked to hold his own in his own zone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

not really - totally different skill sets. fraser was never looked at as anything more than a physical defenseman asked to hold his own in his own zone.

I mean in a sense of someone who can eat some minutes on the back pairing and not be a liability out there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

he's already a decent 6th defenseman. his numbers right now are that of an NHL average defenseman or slightly worse, which is of course better than a 6th d man. i think it might be a devils' fan thing, i'm not sure, but i feel like devils fans expect too much from the back pairing. there aren't that many career back pairing defensemen, just as there aren't many career 4th liners (besides goons, obviously). circumstance and necessity largely dictate these positions, especially in a capped NHL.

his play might slip, that's always possible, but i don't think the idea that he's on his way to becoming a decent 6th defenseman when there's really no such thing. back pairings are made up of a group of guys who are usually destined to become either more or less.

I meant it more as he's on his way to solidifying his role on the team, which just so happens to be as a 6th defenseman at the moment. I certainly could see him improving further over the next few seasons and becoming a respectable midpairing guy, but he doesn't strike me as being good enough to get even close to a top pairing position. I think he's going to end up around the 4-5th spot in the lineup. I think he will do better if he can refine his offensive skill set to the point where he can put up 30+ points each season consistently. If he can't put up the points, it'll hurt him as he seems weaker in his own end compared to when he's on offense.

I feel like many people on the board here are being a little too optimistic since we've been playing better hockey recently and I certainly don't blame anyone for that, but it was only 1 month ago that we were the worst team in the league. Everyone should keep in mind that just as things have been good during this recent stretch, things could easily turn around on us again and we may be talking here about how Fayne was just on a hot streak and that he should be sent down now that he's playing terrible again. I hope that doesn't happen and I don't believe it will, it's just something that we all should keep in our heads, that way we don't get too carried away with imagining how players will turn out a few years down the road.

Also, there's been many players that have had seasons where they seemed to be very promising players that were a lock to be solid NHL players, but then inexplicably couldn't reach those levels again. It's just a reminder that nothing is certain in the NHL and we shouldn't forget that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I meant it more as he's on his way to solidifying his role on the team, which just so happens to be as a 6th defenseman at the moment. I certainly could see him improving further over the next few seasons and becoming a respectable midpairing guy, but he doesn't strike me as being good enough to get even close to a top pairing position. I think he's going to end up around the 4-5th spot in the lineup. I think he will do better if he can refine his offensive skill set to the point where he can put up 30+ points each season consistently. If he can't put up the points, it'll hurt him as he seems weaker in his own end compared to when he's on offense.

I feel like many people on the board here are being a little too optimistic since we've been playing better hockey recently and I certainly don't blame anyone for that, but it was only 1 month ago that we were the worst team in the league. Everyone should keep in mind that just as things have been good during this recent stretch, things could easily turn around on us again and we may be talking here about how Fayne was just on a hot streak and that he should be sent down now that he's playing terrible again. I hope that doesn't happen and I don't believe it will, it's just something that we all should keep in our heads, that way we don't get too carried away with imagining how players will turn out a few years down the road.

Also, there's been many players that have had seasons where they seemed to be very promising players that were a lock to be solid NHL players, but then inexplicably couldn't reach those levels again. It's just a reminder that nothing is certain in the NHL and we shouldn't forget that.

Just as I didn't think they were the worst team in the league, I don't think they're a particularly good team now that they are winning. They are getting just about every break during this stretch. They're still an average team without Parise and without Brodeur playing at a high level.

I don't think Fayne's point totals are that important and I will be shocked if he sticks on the power play going forward. He's got some offensive skill, but not very much. It's a nice addition to have a guy on the backline who won't just shoot indiscriminately, but I don't find point totals to be a good measure of how effective a defenseman is.

While it's possible that he begins to play worse, especially as the season wears on and he fatigues, it's obviously much more likely that in the future he plays better.

Edited by Triumph

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I went to the game last/this night in Raleigh. Fayne was incredibly impressive. This guy is an NHLer for sure. What a pleasant surprise he's turned out to be. Add me to the list of fans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He reminds me a bit of Dan Girardi, another player who came out of nowhere to be a very effective NHL d man. Girardi takes on the toughs and gets beat, but he's very good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0