If the team continues to struggle, does Lou start to feel the heat?

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Well thats fair and perfectly true but you're nitpicking and focusing on a moving target there. Not as if thats my main argument (simply one of the pilled up reasons), i still think the Devils we're more attractive back then than now. I guess thats how i should have said it, how many players with lots of options would sign in Buffalo or with the Flames right now? (at similar offers, of course if they throw ridiculous money at them they might) compared to sign with the Bruins or wtv for fair market price.  

 

So now pointing out examples of where you're 100% wrong about the Devils' better players automatically wanting to stay because the team was contending qualifies as "nitpicking".  Same old SD...people poke holes through some of your posts, and somehow they're wrong for doing so.  Outstanding. 

[The 29th Pick]

Lets see what Lou does this year at the trade deadline....if we're close to a playoff spot, does he move people, or keep them in hope of making the playoffs, and losing players for nothing OR not trading players that we would like to get rid of because of bad contracts.

[Triumph]

So now pointing out examples of where you're 100% wrong about the Devils' better players automatically wanting to stay because the team was contending qualifies as "nitpicking".  Same old SD...people poke holes through some of your posts, and somehow they're wrong for doing so.  Outstanding. 

 

In fairness to him, it was a different world before the salary cap, the Devils simply didn't have the money to keep those players, and other teams did.  Getting involved in free agency was usually stupid, which is why Lou signed no prominent free agents and only retained Stevens, Daneyko, and McKay as guys significantly over 31.

 

Holik wanted to leave, but I believe it was reported that Mogilny called Lou with the Leafs final offer seeing if he could match and Lou said 'Take it'.  

Edited November 6, 2013 by Triumph

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

In fairness to him, it was a different world before the salary cap, the Devils simply didn't have the money to keep those players, and other teams did.  Getting involved in free agency was usually stupid, which is why Lou signed no prominent free agents and only retained Stevens, Daneyko, and McKay as guys significantly over 31.

 

Holik wanted to leave, but I believe it was reported that Mogilny called Lou with the Leafs final offer seeing if he could match and Lou said 'Take it'.  

 

I know the pre-cap world was different, but SD comes off like he thinks players were so enamoured with playing for the "contending" Devils that they were willing to take less money to do it, make personal sacrifices to be a part of the Devils, and were all about loyalty.  Clearly that's not the case.  With some guys, sure.  But like I pointed out, some guys did leave for various reasons (like $$$), and some of the ones who did stay didn't have much choice, due to the higher UFA age back then.  My point is that it's not nearly as black-and-white as he's making it sound.  

 

And the Devils weren't that attractive a destination back then for a lot of players, and they still aren't now.  Yeah, there were guys who became part of the team through being drafted (or undrafted, for that matter) and coming up through the Devils' system, and there's guys who fit in nicely and learned to like playing through the Devils once they were traded here.  But even then, even when the Devils were getting to Cup finals or putting up terrific regular-season records, I don't think too many players who had free will in choosing where to play were thinking "I'd love to go play for the Devils."   

[sundstrom]

Wasn't there a report out there about how Zach was offered 7/49, was thinking about accepting, but his agent urged him to hold out because he could get the bigger ticket if he went UFA?

 

Yes and No. There was no "report" but I posted it on this board through a pretty good source (not a player). It did come from within the Devils organization, which is why I won't put it as fact because these things just don't seem to leak. But it was strong enough that I trusted it.

 

re: signing Parise early - JVB's finances were clearly involved but I also think they did choose Kovalchuk in summer 2010 and figured they had time on Parise. It quite possible the league put the screws to JVB to not do another long term deal for Parise but once the 2011 season started, Parise was going to have to get the big lockoutproof signing bonus and JVB had no chance at that. That's the financial concerns that are probably alluded to.

In fairness to him, it was a different world before the salary cap, the Devils simply didn't have the money to keep those players, and other teams did.  Getting involved in free agency was usually stupid, which is why Lou signed no prominent free agents and only retained Stevens, Daneyko, and McKay as guys significantly over 31.

 

Holik wanted to leave, but I believe it was reported that Mogilny called Lou with the Leafs final offer seeing if he could match and Lou said 'Take it'.  

 

You are right on Mogilny - he has talked about it before and I actually had it "confirmed" through a player still on the team at the time.

also, SD, why do you ignore zajac when talking about re-signing key players early? that's a pretty big example.

[The 29th Pick]

 

You are right on Mogilny - he has talked about it before and I actually had it "confirmed" through a player still on the team at the time.

 

I think I heard Mogilny said he wanted to stay and asked Lou (or agent) to match the Leafs offer which was only $250,000 more, but Lou didn't budge

now who's the cheapskate...Lou for not budging or Al-Mo for leaving over 250k

[dmann422]

Resigning players early can work the other way too, you know. Imagine Lou resigning gionta and Gomez before they went fa to the contracts they got elsewhere (didn't look terrible at the time and at least gionta was decent for a few years)...

But we'd be killing him for tying up big money in two guys who underperform (kinda like some do with a current devil...hmmm)

[dmann422]

I think I heard Mogilny said he wanted to stay and asked Lou (or agent) to match the Leafs offer which was only $250,000 more, but Lou didn't budge

now who's the cheapskate...Lou for not budging or Al-Mo for leaving over 250k

I can't fault either in that situation really. Lou had a set price he wanted to pay, and mogilny went with the best offer. Maybe he even felt slighted knowing Lou didn't think he was worth an extra 250k.

Ultimately, I never harbor ill will to any fa who goes to the money... (Yes, not even parise)...I would do the same.

Edited November 6, 2013 by dmann422

[The 29th Pick]

Resigning players early can work the other way too, you know. Imagine Lou resigning gionta and Gomez before they went fa to the contracts they got elsewhere (didn't look terrible at the time and at least gionta was decent for a few years)...

But we'd be killing him for tying up big money in two guys who underperform (kinda like some do with a current devil...hmmm)

yeah I think alot depends on who's gonna replace these players that walk.....this is why Lou locked up Travis and Adam for decent sized contracts......he had to

[SterioDesign]

So now pointing out examples of where you're 100% wrong about the Devils' better players automatically wanting to stay because the team was contending qualifies as "nitpicking".  Same old SD...people poke holes through some of your posts, and somehow they're wrong for doing so.  Outstanding. 

 

lol wow i never said players were "automatically" staying here because the team was contending don't put words in my mouth, you're exaggerating what im saying big time. You're twisting wtv im saying to make it look bad thats different. You're simply fed up with me and wtv im saying you'll take it the wrong way every single time even if its not.

 

Is it true or not that the Devils we're "more appealing" to re-sign for years ago? Before the finances we're a mess and before the team was actually missing the playoffs back to back years. 

 

Is it true that Lou has more convincing to do now with free agents from where the team stands right now? Saying he really want to put back the team on track and that the financial troubles would be taken care of soon and not to worry about? Cmon tell me, is that true or not? 

[SterioDesign]

also, SD, why do you ignore zajac when talking about re-signing key players early? that's a pretty big example.

 

I never ignored that, i said many times that i'd only want Lou to be open for negotiations "during the season". There's no reasons not to be if it could help a specific case IMO. Thats like 8 months where a lot can happen in the players mind. There's times too where the player feels good about him and the organisation where he'd be more up to re-sign right away than after a terrible late season crash and getting eliminated or something that "could" leave a sour taste in his mouth.

 

Of course every case and every player is different, you absolutely can't setup a black on white method and expect it to work all the time. Thats why examples are kind of hard to bring up cause there's so many more things coming in play in each decisions.

Edited November 6, 2013 by SterioDesign

[Marv4Life]

Say want you want about Shero but at least his club drafted well, even with late picks, something this club has failed to do.

[Devil Dan 56]

Say want you want about Shero but at least his club drafted well, even with late picks, something this club has failed to do.

 

Who have they drafted since 2006 when he took over? Especially in late rounds. Muzzin and Jeffrey are the only 2 to crack 50 games from late rounds, and Staal and Depres were first round picks.

[ATLL765]

I was gonna post, but I see everyone else made my argument for me, lol.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

lol wow i never said players were "automatically" staying here because the team was contending don't put words in my mouth, you're exaggerating what im saying big time. You're twisting wtv im saying to make it look bad thats different. You're simply fed up with me and wtv im saying you'll take it the wrong way every single time even if its not.

 

Is it true or not that the Devils we're "more appealing" to re-sign for years ago? Before the finances we're a mess and before the team was actually missing the playoffs back to back years. 

 

Is it true that Lou has more convincing to do now with free agents from where the team stands right now? Saying he really want to put back the team on track and that the financial troubles would be taken care of soon and not to worry about? Cmon tell me, is that true or not? 

 

The Devils haven't missed the playoffs in back-to-back seasons yet.  This year is far from over.

 

I addressed this in a previous post...I don't think the Devil were ever considered an "appealing" destination for some, no matter how successful the Devils might be at any given time.  Like I've said, I think some guys buy in as they're coming up through the ranks, and other guys do after they've been traded here and get used to how the Devils do things.  For several reasons, Marty and the Devils just seemed to fit each other perfectly from Day 1.  Same with Langs when he first came here (though it didn't end pretty).  Stevens wanted no part of the Devils initially, but gradually came to embrace being a Devil...it helped a lot that key components like Brodeur and Niedermayer came aboard not too far into his Devils' career...in Stevens' third season with the Devils, they had their breakout season in '93-'94, then won the Cup the following year.  I think a lot of hockey players have to be almost indoctrinated by force when it comes to the Devils, and even then, guys like Parise and Rafalski decide that, even though things are going well for them as Devils, there's other places they'd rather go.      

 

I think part of the reason Lou has had to go the ex-Devil route in finding players is that I don't think playing for the Devils is for everyone.  I think some players find it stifling, and that some players automatically assume that playing for the Devils is too structured and regimented, even if they've never played for the Devils.  I think there are organizations that are warmer and fuzzier.  And I don't think New Jersey itself appeals to a lot of NHLers. 

 

Let's face it, in a market like this one, if all is going well, you've got a nice prospect pipeline going, and you've got a way to replace guys like Parise and others from within...maybe not exact matches, but guys who can approximate what was lost.  I don't think Lou ever likes doing business the way he's had to lately.  I don't think he likes having to convince people to come to play for the Devils, and to overpay to get UFAs to fill needs.  Lou is never going to be a guy who begs players to come play in New Jersey. 

 

I don't think Lou would ever admit this, but he probably hates the fact that he's had to put together the current team with parts from other organizations, or parts he would've passed over, under different circumstances.  He probably looks at the on-ice product and feels like forces outside his control (like financial issues and Kovy just saying, "fvck it, I'm done with the NHL") have dictated some of his moves, when I don't think he's ever really felt like his hand's been forced...until recently.  In a perfect world, I think he'd happily blow this up, keep a few pieces, and start all over, but he can't.  Good news is there's some prospects in the system again...hopefully in a couple of years (if he's still here), he can go back to building a team his way.   

Edited November 6, 2013 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[sokar]

I wonder if Lou would try to make a move for Matt Moulson

[NewarkDevil5]

I wonder if Lou would try to make a move for Matt Moulson

 

As a former Cornell guy, I'd be happier than a pig in poop if he managed this somehow.

[mouse]

Yea but Gene built the foundation for those WS teams.  He built up the farm system, and that is what got us those WS titles.  That farm system provided us the assets in order to build a WS dynasty.

 

Some trades we were able to make using our own prospect pool......

Roberto Kelly for Paul O'Neill

Eric Milton, Christian Guzman for Chuck Knoblauch

Russ Davis and Sterling Hitchcock for Tino Martinez, Jeff Nelson, and Jim Mecir.

 

We also developed Jorge, Mo, Jeter. Pettitte, and Bernie.

Some lesser known guys like Homer Bush, Ricky Ledee, Shane Spencer, etc.

 

Baseball and hockey are the only two sports where you have a farm system.  And if you wanna have long term success, a deep farm system is a great way to do it.  The Devils haven't had a deep farm system in a long time.  We haven't been good at drafting since the Parises and Zajacs.  Larsson was more of a gimme pick.  There's more than one way to build a perennial contending team.  But a deep farm system is the best way to do it.

Legit, but at the time he was fired, he was a good GM who hadn't won anything yet. Also, he was demoted to head of scouting, not technically fired. He deserved better, as IMO he was a much better GM than Watson or Cashman, but he also wasn't a legend at the time.

[mouse]

I'll say it again, ALL i'd want from Lou is to give up his dumb rule of not talking during the season. At least make exceptions in SOME cases. There's absolutely NO good reasons not to do it in some cases. It's out of pure stubbornness.

 

 

There is a good reason. Talking contact is distracting. I understand that impending free agency is distracting as well, but considering how few players actually sign extensions mid-season, the chances are, you're distracting one of your guys more, for no gain. Maybe some GMs are willing to do that. Lou isn't. More often than not, Lou being Lou has worked in our favor. Lately, it hasn't, except I don't think Lou changing would have changed the result.

[The 29th Pick]

if I were Lou I'd leave it up to the personality of the player, some players want to get the contract stuff done asap, and others are more carefree and can wait till the season is over.

Edited November 6, 2013 by The 29th Pick

[mouse]

yeah if you look at it strictly in a "win now" mode. I know thats the ultimate goal but again you kind of have to find the good in between for the decisions.

 

You don't want to give away too much for a rental not to compromise you're future without some picks/prospects, but at the same time you're perfectly fine with using a guy that you may lose for nothing and have nothing in the future. Quite a weird mentality.

Again, do you want to give up the finals run in 2012? Because if Lou did what you're saying, especially since we were far from an elite team at the deadline that year, he would have traded Parise. If you think you have a shot at the cup,  you're not a seller. At the deadline last year, the Devils were not that much worse than they were in 2012, at least as far as the standings went. It's not unreasonable to assume that, if Kovy stayed healthy, if Marty stood on his head, and Larsson continued to play well, they could have had a nice little run. None of those things happened, but that's life. You can't blame Lou for holding out hope that the team would get better.

[mouse]

 

 

Is it true that Lou has more convincing to do now with free agents from where the team stands right now? Saying he really want to put back the team on track and that the financial troubles would be taken care of soon and not to worry about? Cmon tell me, is that true or not? 

Yeah, but there's also a cap now, which allows Lou to offer reasonable deals to guys and actually get them. If also means a guy like Jagr is around mid summer, and Brunner makes it to training camp. The league has changed, but throughout the Devils' history, they have not been particularly in demand. Lou has done a good job managing the team despite that. What more do you want?

[Devils Pride 26]

I see Lou leaving after this season on his own terms with Marty. Back in Marty's book, I remember Marty said that as long as he was there Lou would be too. Or something like that.

[LucifersDog]

I see Lou leaving after this season on his own terms with Marty. Back in Marty's book, I remember Marty said that as long as he was there Lou would be too. Or something like that.

Wouldn't that be nice. Two Legions getting reconsign and the Devils stepping up to the 2014 generation. 

 

I am sorry, I am done with Lou and Marty they were great in their time..

 

We must go beyond the Status Qou, I love you Lou., thanks for the hard line.

[SterioDesign]

Clowe got traded last season and the Sharks we're in the run, of course saying that all im not saying i would have wanted to trade Zach. But its not impossible if the GM knows beforehand that he's gonna lose the player.

 

Again all i'd want is for Lou to use a system where he's giving himself options, instead of going for a leap of faith every times and if things dont go his way he's losing players for nothing.

 

Personally i would not have wanted to see Zach getting traded during the season (or at all, i'd really want to have him still) but there's days where i hope Lou would have traded him before the season when Zach refused his long-term deal and signed for a year after getting a new agent, the return would have been pretty good. Plus knowing he was talking with Sutter during the season. There we're hints that he might consider looking for other offers.

 

Of course some will say there was the financial troubles... but the financial troubles we're still not settled when Lou made his "similar to Minny" offer in June. This goes both ways.

 

Plus well for the playoffs run... Thats a bit hypocrite from some people here, when Zach signed with Minny, a bunch we're saying he was useless disappearing in the playoffs anyway only scoring empty nets and that Kovalchuk was better. But now saying we would have never made it to the finals without him. wut ? 

Edited November 7, 2013 by SterioDesign