"Transition, not a Rebuild" 15-16 Thread and Beyond

[devilsrule33]

First, some comments from Lou Lamoriello from Fire and Ice:

 

 

“It's a transition, not a rebuild. Rebuild means you're starting right from the foundation.”

And that's not something Lamoriello believes in or thinks is necessary.

“Absolutely. I don't think that's a question,” Lamoriello said. “Where we are today and even if you go back a year, why we're in, why we weren't (in the playoffs), that's the same thing here right now. We never got ourselves on a roll the way you'd like to see it, but I don't think you tear down by any means. That's not the philosophy of this organization nor do I think that's something that can be done in this day and age. You don't simply because of the free agency and the way the draft is. It's almost impossible to do if you think like that.

“That was the decision that was made at the draft a couple years ago when we had the opportunity to acquire Cory Schneider.”

 

 

When I asked Lamoriello if we could see more young forwards after the deadline, he replied, “Possibly”, but he suggested the solution to the team's age problem up front won't come only from players already within the organization or even the draft.

Free agency and trades are two options Lamoriello will have to explore and made it clear that he team has the salary cap space to do so with a host of players on expiring contracts.

“I don't think that's something you can actually have a formula for, but, it's not only young players, it's additional players or through trades,” Lamoriello said. “If you look at the different teams right now with cap situations and cap problems, I think the good thing for the New Jersey Devils right now also from a financial and cap situation going forward, they're in great shape.”

 

http://fireandice.northjersey.com/fire-ice-1.174987/lamoriello-s-plan-it-s-a-transition-not-a-rebuild-says-team-has-cap-space-to-upgrade-forwards-1.1275387

 

I'm a little confused what Lou is saying. In the first quote box, he says that he doesn't think you can totally rebuild because of free agency and the draft? So, he thinks free agency is an element that gives every team a chance to get good players? In the second, it really seems that the Devils having cap space will be very important for the Devils in free agency. Like free agency, will be a huge help to fix the scoring issues?

 

Maybe I am reading into it poorly, but how after everything that's happened, does he think Free Agency is the answer. Really good players aren't making it to free agency, They aren't holding out hope to be signed by the New Jersey Devils come July 1st. The Devils will have a good amount of cap space opened up this off-season. What does it mean for them? Mike Fisher? Antoine Vermette? Justin Williams? Chris Stewart? Thomas Fleischmann? The answers are not there to save this franchise?

 

Here's the first question I have: If Lamoriello is still the GM, and I 100% expect him to be, what can he do to get this team in the playoffs next season. Although, he never says it, I'm assuming that would be his goal. I'm having a hard time seeing his way there.

 

You can always punt 2015-2016, hope to have another top draft pick, and chase after a hopefully better free agency class in 2016, but isn't the cap predicted to rise much higher. There are going to be other teams with cap space.

 

Either way, there are a lot of threads discussing a lot of different teams, why not have a thread dedicated to the direction of the franchise, possible scenarios, ways to improve the team, etc as the last two months play out.

 

 

Edited February 20, 2015 by devilsrule33

[MadDog2020]

Re: the cap space comment- that could also apply to making trades and adding salary that way too. I would think Lou understands good teams aren't built through free agency. He hasn't had much of a choice but to use free agency recently.

Edited February 20, 2015 by MadDog2020

[Mayday]

Its possible to make a 'transition' of the forward core via trade but in reality Lou will never go out and make a big hockey trade that lands a young top 6 scorer.

[William D'Aquila]

Its possible to make a 'transition' of the forward core via trade but in reality Lou will never go out and make a big hockey trade that lands a young top 6 scorer.

 

Lol

[MadDog2020]

Its possible to make a 'transition' of the forward core via trade but in reality Lou will never go out and make a big hockey trade that lands a young top 6 scorer.

Straight up hockey trades aren't easy to make anymore. I mean, how many good old fashioned hockey trades do you really see these days? Not very many. Edited February 20, 2015 by MadDog2020

[Jerzey]

I voted Transition without Lou. The foundation is there with the defense and goaltending we just need good young forwards and scorers. I just don't think Lou's vision for this team and how it should be run works anymore. That's just my opinion. I'd like to see the philosophy of the team change. Defense is important but it's not the only part of the game. I'd like to see some excitement brought in and I don't think bringing in exciting dynamic players and making them change their game to be more focused on defense makes any sense but that's Lou's style.

[Daniel]

Regarding how he gets the team into the playoffs next year, he would tell you that the goaltender and the defense, which are things that keep a lot of teams with talented forwards from being any good, are already in place and relatively inexpensively at that, so there's no need to rebuild in the Buffalo sense of the term.

But then the rub, is about how to get younger forwards that are any good, which is why he was more vague than anything when answering that question. There's no Rick Nash type that you can trade for an almost entire second or third line, and you can't really trade one of the defenseman, even Severson or Larsson, and get a return that would make it worth it, in that they're both trade mismatches for what the team really needs. Meaning you're obviously not getting Connor McDavid for them, and even if you theoretically got someone as good as Taylor Hall, you're more or less right back where you started.

This of course brings us back to the lack of success drafting forwards for the past ten years, whether you want to attribute it to bad scouting, bad luck, hubris with keeping the 2012 pick or a combination of the three. Obviously he won't be answering questions about that, although to be fair, I don't know what it accomplishes to just have reporters beat you up over it.

If there is a plan, I hope it involves working the phones with the Isles and seeing what it takes to get Ho Sang or Del Colle, even if it involves someone like Elias for the latter. That or pray that a Tyler Seguin esque deal falls into your lap.

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[Mayday]

Straight up hockey trades aren't easy to make anymore. I mean, how many good old fashioned hockey trades do you really see these days? Not very many.

True but there are still done on occassion. The Kane trade for example, both teams recieved some good pieces both ways that will big impacts on those teams.

[Jerzey]

Regarding how he gets the team into the playoffs next year, he would tell you that the goaltender and the defense, which are things that keep a lot of teams with talented forwards from being any good, are already in place and relatively inexpensively at that, so there's no need to rebuild in the Buffalo sense of the term.

But then the rub, is about how to get younger forwards that are any good, which is why he was more vague than anything when answering that question. There's no Rick Nash type that you can trade for an almost entire second or third line, and you can't really trade one of the defenseman, even Severson or Larsson, and get a return that would make it worth it, in that they're both trade mismatches for what the team really needs. Meaning you're obviously not getting Connor McDavid for them, and even if you theoretically got someone as good as Taylor Hall, you're more or less right back where you started.

This of course brings us back to the lack of success drafting forwards for the past ten years, whether you want to attribute it to bad scouting, bad luck, hubris with keeping the 2012 pick or a combination of the three. Obviously he won't be answering questions about that, although to be fair, I don't know what it accomplishes to just have reporters beat you up over it.

If there is a plan, I hope it involves working the phones with the Isles and seeing what it takes to get Ho Sang or Del Colle, even if it involves someone like Elias for the latter. That or pray that a Tyler Seguin esque deal falls into your lap.

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I'm going to beat the dead horse again and say we just don't have the assets to make a big trade without gutting our team. Our best assets would have been our first round busts or players that walked away as ufa's.

[Daniel]

I'm going to beat the dead horse again and say we just don't have the assets to make a big trade without gutting our team. Our best assets would have been our first round busts or players that walked away as ufa's.

Elias is a pretty big trade asset for a very good team that is making a Cup run now that also has very good players in their system. So from the Isles standpoint, they are already loaded with some great young forwards at the NHL level to the point that even someone as promising as Del Colle is something of a luxury good for a player like Elias who is still a good player, could help you win a Cup, and he's under an affordable contract for another year.

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[Jerzey]

Elias is a pretty big trade asset for a very good team that is making a Cup run now that also has very good players in their system. So from the Isles standpoint, they are already loaded with some great young forwards at the NHL level to the point that even someone as promising as Del Colle is something of a luxury good for a player like Elias who is still a good player, could help you win a Cup, and he's under an affordable contract for another year.

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I agree and I'm absolutely for trading Elias but only if he asks to be traded. He's earned the right to finish his career how he wants. Other than trading him we might get a 2nd for Jagr and/or Zids. We could trade one of Larsson, Severson, Santini, or Merrill but I personally don't think that would be a good idea. Other than that, yeah we're pretty stuck.

[Daniel]

I agree and I'm absolutely for trading Elias but only if he asks to be traded. He's earned the right to finish his career how he wants. Other than trading him we might get a 2nd for Jagr and/or Zids. We could trade one of Larsson, Severson, Santini, or Merrill but I personally don't think that would be a good idea. Other than that, yeah we're pretty stuck.

Teams in the Devils situation get better by trading older players. So even if we traded Severson for Taylor Hall, the offense improves but the defense takes a step back and right back where we started.

Trading Elias is really the best shot at a one step back two step forward type deal. If it were me handling it, I would have a talk with him beforehand, explain that the idea would be to get a very good prospect, not low first round draft pick, but that there are no hard feelings and it won't be public if he says he won't accept being traded.

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Edited February 20, 2015 by Daniel

[Triumph]

I mean, you can squint and see the Devils in the playoffs next year, but it involves a lot of short-sighted moves.  It doesn't even have to include trading this year's 1st.  What it involves is signing at least one top free agent forward, signing other free agent forwards, trading for a guy who has to be gotten rid of due to cap concerns (Sharp?) and pretty much all of NJ's young players have to get better.  And then Schneider has to play like this all year, the Devils can't have Adam Oates near the team, etc.

 

I hate the word rebuild.  Franchise teardowns are only necessary when you have fvcked up things so irrevocably that no one wants to stay.  The Sabres tore down their franchise - first by making a lot of dumb moves (they gave Sekera away, traded Roy for Ott, signing Ville Leino, etc.), then by making moves of necessity (dealing Vanek, Pominville, and Miller).  They've got at least another year out of the playoffs, maybe one more after that, even if they get McDavid or Eichel.  The Devils shouldn't have to do that, and it's clear Lou Lamoriello is not the guy to get that done.

[William D'Aquila]

Transition 

 

With Lou

[titans04]

I don't think at this stage in his career that Elias brings you back a young top six forward. Great guy. Great Devil who has been part of the problem this year as much as he's helped. There's been stretches where he's been invisible.

Plus the crying over seeing him in another Jersey would be epic. I also don't ever see Lou moving him. In his eyes I'm sure he's earned the right to stay.

Transition/rebuild whatever you want to call it without Lou.

[roomtemp]

Transition because our defensive core and goaltending are way too solid to blow up.

[Mike Brown]

Why should we rebuild when we don't have to?  We need goalie prospects and we need star forward prospects.  That's it.  We already have a bunch of solid forward prospects waiting in the wings.  We just don't have that star potential guy yet.  Lou is 100% correct when saying this isn't a rebuild.

[Zubie#8]

Think of the Nashville Preds two years ago, had the D and the goaltending just needed the offense. I want that kind of transition.

[sundstrom]

Tri is on the right path. For them to be a playoff team, a lot has to go right and I do not believe Lou can be behind it because he just has not shown an ability to deviate from his way of thinking.

It's nice to talk about using the cap space to trade with teams that are up against it but has Lou ever made that kind of deal? I mean, you can say he's never had to but when ha he done anything out of his comfort zone? The Kovy deal was a swing for the fences type move, but he did that before with gilmour and mogilny.

This is foreign to him. I'm sure he's thinking oduya, maybe a run at zuccarello and a Chris Stewart.

Is he (and more importantly his staff/scouts) shrewed enough to find RFA or gius out of options that good teams have to deal for pennies on the dollar? Can he make an Isles like move to get a leddy or boychuck?

If there is one thing for certain with Lou, it's that he believes what he believes and has shown a disdain to alter from that. That's why you get Devils coming back, coaches he knows (for the most part), UFA reaches, etc.

[Triumph]

Tri is on the right path. For them to be a playoff team, a lot has to go right and I do not believe Lou can be behind it because he just has not shown an ability to deviate from his way of thinking.

It's nice to talk about using the cap space to trade with teams that are up against it but has Lou ever made that kind of deal? I mean, you can say he's never had to but when ha he done anything out of his comfort zone? The Kovy deal was a swing for the fences type move, but he did that before with gilmour and mogilny.

This is foreign to him. I'm sure he's thinking oduya, maybe a run at zuccarello and a Chris Stewart.

Is he (and more importantly his staff/scouts) shrewed enough to find RFA or gius out of options that good teams have to deal for pennies on the dollar? Can he make an Isles like move to get a leddy or boychuck?

If there is one thing for certain with Lou, it's that he believes what he believes and has shown a disdain to alter from that. That's why you get Devils coming back, coaches he knows (for the most part), UFA reaches, etc.

 

The Devils have never had cap space to play with.  05-06 and 06-07 they were basically capped out.  07-08 they were close to the cap, 08-09 was another basically capped out year, 09-10 they had some room and used it for Kovalchuk, and so on - they've never been in the spot where they have long-term cap space avaliable, but if they get a forward in this draft that they're confident in down the road, they will have that sort of scenario.

 

in addition, I think it's reductive to take on Lou for all the ex-Devils stuff - yes, he's obviously gone to that well a little too often, but the Devils have gotten creative with free agent signings from time to time - from the Oduya/Harant/Malmivaara trio in 06 to Jari Viuhkola in 08, Anssi Salmela, Harri Pesonen and even having Renat Mamachev here on tryout, it's impossible to say he's totally out of ideas in this regard - the last time the Devils signed a top UDFA was Rafalski (or possibly Greene, depending on how you rank him).  And there've been lots of non-Devils to grace the roster in recent years and that will increase simply because there aren't many ex-Devils playing in the league anymore.  So again, we'll see.  I'm hoping he realizes that next year is no good, but who knows.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Triumph

[devilsrule33]

Lou needs to properly evaluate his own players in order to make the right decisions. If he still overrates players like Zajac and Henrique, that's an issue. Lately Lou has talked about Zubrus and Gionta, mentioning that they aren't top six forwards so the offense part of their game isn't important, and they have value in other places, but the thing is...if you don't have the pieces in the top six, you need players better than Zubrus and Gionta in your bottom six. It really needs to be a collective effort offensively, and if players like that can't contribute offensively in any way, they need to go.

 

You simply can't be close when you are missing arguably four or five top six forwards. If Lou thinks Henrique, Zajac, Elias and Cammalleri is formidable core, then I expect some bad free agent signings to compliment them. That would be a disaster. 

[BostonNala370]

Elias is a pretty big trade asset for a very good team that is making a Cup run now that also has very good players in their system. So from the Isles standpoint, they are already loaded with some great young forwards at the NHL level to the point that even someone as promising as Del Colle is something of a luxury good for a player like Elias who is still a good player, could help you win a Cup, and he's under an affordable contract for another year.

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That is a good example however IMO the only example for the Devils and requires Elias to wave his NTC.

[HellOnICE]

My only feeling towards Lou is his age and that it's time to transition as a new era of Devils hockey is upon us. 

[Daniel]

Lou needs to properly evaluate his own players in order to make the right decisions. If he still overrates players like Zajac and Henrique, that's an issue. Lately Lou has talked about Zubrus and Gionta, mentioning that they aren't top six forwards so the offense part of their game isn't important, and they have value in other places, but the thing is...if you don't have the pieces in the top six, you need players better than Zubrus and Gionta in your bottom six. It really needs to be a collective effort offensively, and if players like that can't contribute offensively in any way, they need to go.

You simply can't be close when you are missing arguably four or five top six forwards. If Lou thinks Henrique, Zajac, Elias and Cammalleri is formidable core, then I expect some bad free agent signings to compliment them. That would be a disaster.

I think what Lou has said about the Devils draft strategy -- draft a forward, unless there's a defenseman available that's too good to pass up at a particular spot -- is an indication that he understands what Zajac and Henrique are and are not. And the contracts they received, overpaid, but not paid anything close to what consistent scorers get, indicates that as well.

It seems that a lot of the bad moves he's made in recent years, come from an obsession with having as many Zubrus type players as he possibly can get.

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[BostonNala370]

I'm going to beat the dead horse again and say we just don't have the assets to make a big trade without gutting our team. Our best assets would have been our first round busts or players that walked away as ufa's.

I agree with you. The thing we have is out goalies, Greene and our young defenseman excluding Gelinas. For the most part the rest of the other Devils players are crap and you can't trade crap for good. Then we have those players you need to keep on offense like Josefson, Henrique, Camm, Elias and Zajac. Now review what is needed a vet defenseman. 9 young good offensive players. Not happening through trades because we don't have assests that others want.