halfsharkalligatorhalfman Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 niedermayer is barely in the discussion without his anaheim career. the 3 stanley cups may get him over the finish line, since the HHOF is horrible at actually figuring out who the best hockey players are, but i doubt it. The only comparable defensemen I think who was clearly better for Niedermayer's prime is Lidstrom. But I think Lidstrom is the Greatest Defenseman of all time (in terms of absolute talent and ability, not relative talent and ability, that title will always be orr's). If Nieds retires in 05 is he the only puck mover you put in the HHOF? The guy was the complete package, Devils have clearly missed him every postseason since he left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 From a purely individual standpoint, I thought Niedermayer was a slight disappointment considering how much talent he had. He blossomed late in his tenure here, but all through the 1990s and early 2000s, I think he fell a little short, and I'm not inclined to blame the defensive system 100%. I think he coasted on his talent a little. He was a terrific player, but he's a cut below number retirement in my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils731 Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 The only comparable defensemen I think who was clearly better for Niedermayer's prime is Lidstrom. But I think Lidstrom is the Greatest Defenseman of all time (in terms of absolute talent and ability, not relative talent and ability, that title will always be orr's). If Nieds retires in 05 is he the only puck mover you put in the HHOF? The guy was the complete package, Devils have clearly missed him every postseason since he left. To flip that argument around, do you induct guys who only played in 3 all star games to the hall of fame? Only made the first all star team at the end of season once? And only made second team one other time as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfsharkalligatorhalfman Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 To flip that argument around, do you induct guys who only played in 3 all star games to the hall of fame? Only made the first all star team at the end of season once? And only made second team one other time as well. Well obviously if you throw out Anaheim it's not as strong a case for Nieds, since it's 5 out of 16 years, including 3 of his best. And I concede it's not a slam dunk or anything. But I personally thought he was great, and I guess the rest of league's fans/hockey writers were not in agreement (thus the few all star games). I think this is partly due the fact that so few hockey fans/writers can properly judge defensive ability. Without great stats there is no real objective way to do it (Although I think some people are doing a better job of doing it now with Corsi numbers, etc). Nieds was under the radar because he didn't put up Gonchar offensive numbers, when he was so much better defensively, it just wasn't apparent to anyone other than Devils fans. In any case, I certainly think he deserves to have his jersey retired in NJ, and I don't really have much to go on besides my personal opinion from years of observing him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepperkorn Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 (edited) and his character on the Devils is of no value. Why did they retire Dano's number then? To everyone's point - you don't retire a guy's number because he's HoF material. You retire him for what he means to your team, your fans. Because he's made you proud of your team. If Lou is all for this I see it as an act of stubbornness, Retiring Neids is taking ownership of his talent - but if you're going to do that you need a guy to have represented you honorably. Using fake self-effaciousness to avoid responsibility is not a credit to the team. To me what he said wasn't out of respect - when Marty implied Nieds was strong silent -- I see that as resentment for being asked to do a job for a team and a system he really didn't even buy into. He was honest - I do see that. I'd have no problem calling him soft-spoken - EXCEPT that he wasn't - not an iota. He MADE that Anaheim team. You don't retire a guys number who was too fvcking COWED by the GM and the system to produce -- I don't know. Maybe Lou sees it differently - based on comments Larry RObinson didn't when he had to kick his scrawny ass to get him to live up to his potential. teh team floundered under his lead exactly as they have since - the team plays GREAT regular season STILL and can't get it up on the playoffs. Neids didn't bring that sort of leadership to the Devils on his own as he did for Anaheim. He felt zero ownership for the team or the system. Nieds is NOT quiet. He is RELUCTANT -- and reluctant for THE DEVILS only..... and you want to reward him for succeeding as best as he could through his own reluctance? It's just f'd up to me. and no one deals it here - you all ignore me or chalk it up to some personal issue I have with the guy. What do you all think Neidermayer thinks of his time here? What do you think he feels about this team? Would he give his all for this team the way Stevens and Dano did? The way Marty has? THAT is the question. He'll go into the hall of fame - as a Devil? or Duck? If the choice was his do you think he'd go in as devil? THIS is what you ask yourself when you talk about retiring a number... unless you know you want to retire Ray Bourque like Colorado did. If thsi team was his parent - yes, his number gets retired despite his thankless attitude (lip service aside). You still love the fvcker who gives you full credit for making him the man he is and prays he never turns into anything like you nor does he ever want to see you again once he;s left your cloying grasp. The truth of the matter - fvck it I'll say it --- it's disrespectful to the other numbers up there. The guys up there will say Hell yeah! Put Neids up there - he's our brother - we all made him what he became. It;s honor to be there with him. But lets be real. The truth of the matter is that at this point it diminished the other numbers. and it will diminish Maryt's induction. Lou has to do what he has to do - btu it hasn't been wittingly earned and hanging it up seems liek it's an honor to the Devils SOLELY, not any honor Nieds will recognize. Not beyond the ceremony anyhow. Deep in his heart he will scoff. Deaper yeah, he'll be proud -- but he;ll always find the cynical Carol take first -- TRUST me on that. Edited September 20, 2010 by Pepperkorn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RizzMB30 Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Lol, Good post ^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redruM Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Sorry, Paul Martin and Scott Niedermayer do not belong in the same sentence. Martin was/is a good player. Niedermayer is a Hall of Famer. Thank god someone said this... Many of you seem to have selective memory, and the fact the Nied tunred down a bigger contract from Nj to play elsewhere has many of you some pissed that you forget how great he was. No hedidn't have career ending checks like Stevens, but he had some Huge playoff goals, and if I remember correctly he lead the Devs in playoff scoring during the 2003 cup run ( i could be wrong).. To compare martin to Neids is like comparing Dany to Stevens, and I love dano,... but lets get real!! Stop acting like jilted lovers and realize how great a devil Neids was,,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Devil Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Sorry, Paul Martin and Scott Niedermayer do not belong in the same sentence. Martin was/is a good player. Niedermayer is a Hall of Famer. Thank you, Capo! I'm beginning to think the earth has passed through some kind of nexis where normally logical posters have had their synapses re-wired. Scott Nieds was a MAJOR part of 3 Stanley Cup championships for this franchise. There should have been a fourth. He did this on a team that values performing your role on the team above all else. In that regard, he was the consumate team player. And now he's getting compared to that near-stiff Martin? Sheesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 The only comparable defensemen I think who was clearly better for Niedermayer's prime is Lidstrom. But I think Lidstrom is the Greatest Defenseman of all time (in terms of absolute talent and ability, not relative talent and ability, that title will always be orr's). If Nieds retires in 05 is he the only puck mover you put in the HHOF? The guy was the complete package, Devils have clearly missed him every postseason since he left. pronger. possibly chara, although i suspect you won't allow players who only started to play norris-worthy hockey at 30 (even though niedermayer was the same way). sergei zubov is arguable. brian leetch, probably not, but he belongs in the discussion. certainly guys like ray bourque and al macinnis for the early part of his career. in all, it wasn't that great an era for defensemen. i don't get it. niedermayer NEVER played the toughest minutes in new jersey, besides ONE season. stevens et. al played against the toughest players. now he might've faced the toughest defensemen against his line, but he probably had the best forwards, too. it's just a damned shame we don't have advanced stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hattrick Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 I'm on board with retiring #27. I always have been in favor of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlman Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 (edited) Raise the banner next season. Lets make sure he really is retired! I wouldnt be surprised if hes in the same mold as a Selanne/Favre when it comes to retiring Edited September 20, 2010 by devlman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yankeesjetsfan Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 The man won three cups as a Devil. He was with the Devils for the majority of his career. I don't care that he left to play wth his brother, family comes firt and it was admirable that he wanted to play with his brother. I'm on board with retiring his number. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neb00rs Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 You can't retire one Niedermayer without retiring the other. They come as a package. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelastonealive Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Retire his number. Just, not this year. Let's focus on raising a different banner this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepperkorn Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Retire his number. Just, not this year. Let's focus on raising a different banner this year. Despite my vitriol this is my personal opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkirt Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Without Nieds, its very possible the Devils are still in search of their first Championship. He scored a great goal and was a part of that squad, but was not in the top 4 of our D. that was Stevens, Driver, Albelin, Chambers. His growth did allow us to move Fetisov Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtimer Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Nieds was way better than his stats. All for #27 hanging from the rafters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepperkorn Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 but he didn't give the team hi ALL! That's the thing of it. and for going in the rafters you have to have given willingly -- JOYFULLY EVEN! that's just my point... and no on even cares except RIZZ ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice dog Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 retire his number after he's in the Hall of Fame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepperkorn Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 You know what I bet. the Duck are going to retire it and there is pressure to beat them to it. yeah -- that's the way I'll justify it all out that I am in agreement with the Devils... AS IF NIEDS WOULD EVEN WORK S HARD AS I DO AS A STUPID FAN!!!!!! ??????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoArmySports Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Is this thread in the Hall Of Fame? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revan Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Thank you, Capo! I'm beginning to think the earth has passed through some kind of nexis where normally logical posters have had their synapses re-wired. Scott Nieds was a MAJOR part of 3 Stanley Cup championships for this franchise. There should have been a fourth. He did this on a team that values performing your role on the team above all else. In that regard, he was the consumate team player. And now he's getting compared to that near-stiff Martin? Sheesh. Yeah. Comparing Nieds to Martin is crazy. People resurrect the ancient "Niedermayer to Ducks" thread to show us how quickly we forget about his departure, while they seem to completely forget what kind of player he was. Actually, it's similiar to what happened after Martin left (to an extent) - yesterday, he (Martin) was the leader of our defense (although very unsuccesful in the playoffs, but still - our best offensive D-man) and today, some of the fans talk like he couldn't even shoot the puck at the net. It might be a bit different, as this offseason has been our most successful in quite some time and that's why people have more to cheer than to be sad about, but it's kinda sad, nevertheless. I'm afraid we're going to miss some scoring touch on defense and recent seasons proved you need a top-notch puck-moving defenseman to go deep into the playoffs. BTW, Pepperkorn, I assume you know Nieds very well personally, since you talk a lot about what he thinks about the team and stuff, what his feelings are, what his work ethic is like... no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepperkorn Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Yeah -- we dated back in the day... hence the whole jilted lover thing red was referring too.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouse Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 It's tough to assert your personality on someone else's team. It's not selfish that Nieds carved out his identity more with Anaheim and Canada -- just the opposite. When Nieds came to the Devils, he was the kid and it was Stevens' team. The defense was built around physical play rather than speed and scoring ability. Nieds made an effort to fit in with that team, and did a damn good job (3 cups). When Stevens went out in '04, Nieds did his best work, because he could assert himself without rocking the boat. To compare him to the current team: he's Kovie. The team has a style of play built around guys like Zach and Elias. When Kovie failed to adhere to that style (holding the puck too long especially), we rightfully got annoyed, even if most of us gave him a pass, since he was a late acquisition playing for a moron of a coach. When Kovie bought into the system -- working harder on his backcheck than he had in ATL -- we appreciated it. The new guy needs to play into the system, at least if the system is working. It's not Nieds' fault that he was the (comparatively) new guy for 10 years. When he came to Anaheim, it was a team that badly needed help getting over the hump, and he was encouraged to be the leader -- they immediately gave him the c -- so he was able to assert himself without causing trouble. There are a couple of players who could have let their personalities out more on the Devils without fvcking with the championship dynamic, but not many. I can't fault Nieds for holding back to fit in, and I don't believe he was coasting. Unlike Dano or Madden, who had to go crazy to get enough out of limited talent, Nieds had exceptional talent and made the game look easy. That doesn't mean he wasn't working -- no one can skate that well for that long without working. We all love the grinders -- Madden and Dano are my favorite Devils of all time, but it's not Nieds' fault he wasn't one. He's a Hall of Famer, and a great Devil. Is he Stevens, Dano or Marty? No. And for that reason, I have no problem waiting a few years to retire his number, but someday, 27 belongs in the rafters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepperkorn Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 (edited) mouse - I have thought that very same thing. but I have a lot of fun ragging on him. you know... since... he was my... ex-boyfriend and all... OK I lied about that -- but I DID date the guy on NCIS! See I just had to add that in since you know maybe I COULD have dated Neids ... I didn't think anyone actually believed that btw -- I feel like I must add because you guys are just SOOOOO heavy hearted sometimes!!! Edited September 20, 2010 by Pepperkorn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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