Jas0nMacIsaac Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Here is where the board stomps all over me. Stevens isn't even top 10 overall for defensmen. Bobby Orr Doug Harvey Eddie Shore Denis Potvin Raymond Bourque Red Kelly Nicklas Lidstrom Brad Park Larry Robinson Slava Fetisov Chris Chelios all these defensmen are better Howe may even be better if everyone took his WHA numbers into consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Here is where the board stomps all over me.Stevens isn't even top 10 overall for defensmen. Bobby Orr Doug Harvey Eddie Shore Denis Potvin Raymond Bourque Red Kelly Nicklas Lidstrom Brad Park Larry Robinson Slava Fetisov Chris Chelios all these defensmen are better Howe may even be better if everyone took his WHA numbers into consideration. Just wanted to note that you're taking Fetisov's career in Russia into account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMONPETEYD Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Anyone to list players they haven't seen play is just assanine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SatansDevils Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) Bobby Orr Larry Robinson Niklas Lidstrom Scott Stevens Doug Harvey Eddie Shore Red Kelly Scott Niedermayer Chris Chelios Raymond Bourque there are still way too many to name to say they are in the top 5 or 10 all-time in the NHL. Just too hard to determine IMO. Edited March 23, 2009 by SatansDevils Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MantaRay Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Here is where the board stomps all over me.Stevens isn't even top 10 overall for defensmen. Bobby Orr Doug Harvey Eddie Shore Denis Potvin Raymond Bourque Red Kelly Nicklas Lidstrom Brad Park Larry Robinson Slava Fetisov Chris Chelios all these defensmen are better Howe may even be better if everyone took his WHA numbers into consideration. I haven't seen Harvey, Shore, or Kelly, so I can' t comment. Stevens > Bourque, Park, Lidstrom, Fetisov and Chelios. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Stevens > Bourque, Park, Lidstrom, Fetisov and Chelios. Not enough props for Ray Bourque IMO, but I think I've gotten into this before with you, MantaRay. It reads familiar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas0nMacIsaac Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Anyone to list players they haven't seen play is just assanine. Well not really, you just make educated guesses and read up on certain players. Everyone of those defensmen dominated their era much more then Stevens did. Yes, I took Fetisov's dominant international career in Russia into account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepperkorn Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 List your top 5 greatest d-men of all-time. Number 1 is pretty obvious.My list has changed like 20 times already. But here's my latest. 1. Bobby Orr 2. Paul Coffey 3. Ray Bourque 4. Denis Potvin 5. Larry Robinson You are officially on my sh!t list FYI. no that's NOT a nice smiley in case you thought it was Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepperkorn Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 My list:1. Bobby Orr 2. Doug Harvey 3. Larry Robinson 4. Eddie Shore 5. Red Kelly This is at least an endearing & personal list - even if it's stupid now THAT was meant to be a funny smilie in my universe, these are my picks;1. Bobby Orr 2. Larry Robinson 3. Brian Leetch 4. Niklas Lidstrom 5. Scott Stevens You live in a sane universe my friend! well... sort of at least Bobby OrrDoug Harvey Eddie Shore Denis Potvin Raymond Bourque my... how unoriginal - I'd expect more of you. Hmeh - you're getting older I guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepperkorn Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 If they split up the awards then fine, Stevens is one of the best defensive D-men to ever play the game. But as far as this criteria goes, I can think of at least 5 D-men that I would want on my team to control the D-zone and then lead a rush and create offense.I understand Scotty may have accomplished that a certain times but it wasn't the bulk of his career. Wait a sec -- that's stupid what you just wrote there... so you weren't saying who was the best defence man.... you're list was about the best Norris winner? That's effed up dude! and NOT hockey. that's still a happy smilie even if I am being pugnacious! 1. Orr2. Stevens 3. Robinson 4. Shore 5. Potvin Definitely a universe warped to my specifications.... not sure that's really a GOOD thing but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepperkorn Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Anything's debatable when you're trying to pick just five guys from at least 50 years of hockey. If you pick a guy you never saw, you can only go by what you've read or what Stan Fischler said. SOOOOOO true. The little tykes will argue to the death about it though... "My dad made tapes!" DUDE - there were no tapes!! I can't even go there any more You gotta give us our bright side at being over 40! or you know YOU because... YOU'RE over 40 and stuff... right? It's always hard for me to argue with Larry and Orr and Potvin because I saw them play. But I didn't like Orr or Robinson because I hate their teams and Potvin was on my favorite team so i didn't think he was that great -- you know? I just thought only I thought he was Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepperkorn Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 AND - I take issue with Orr as number one because he was so fragile. I mean - he was great but stamina HAS to fit in there. the body HAS to be able to take it. Brodeur has to be better than Roy because of his longevity. He may smash records - and many will say it's because he played so much longer -- but that's GOT to figure in to the equation. I'm not saying Orr wanted his body to crap out on him or it did because he was a less than decent player --- but I'm not going around saying Lindros was numero tres because he WOULD have put up crazy numbers for YEARS if only he's lasted. Why does the same never hold up for Orr? *insert tirade against stupid Boston fans* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepperkorn Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Well not really, you just make educated guesses and read up on certain players. Everyone of those defensmen dominated their era much more then Stevens did. Yes, I took Fetisov's dominant international career in Russia into account. Are you an actuary yet? You really were MADE for that career track! I won't jump all over you for your list either -- I understand where you're coming from, and it's your opinion... no wait I take that back it is your determination/calculation. I think you intentionally try to take out any sentimentality you may feel for something you personally witnessed -- and with that you take out Stevens soul. If you were removed from him - not a fan of the team - you'd have a fuller scope of his contribution. The same way you can take the essence of historical players and add them into your total quotient. You're very obviously leaving that out for Stevens. You think in fairness... but it's not - you're purposely judging on half the picture because you fear your full picture is skewed. You are being less than objective Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaneykoIsGod Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Like others have said, it isn't really fair to rate defensemen you haven't seen. So, since I started following hockey in '94, these are the top five that I've seen: 1) Ray Bourque 2) Nicklas Lidstrom 3) Scott Stevens 4) Scott Niedermayer 5) Chris Pronger Bobby Orr is pretty much universally accepted as the greatest defenseman of all time and guys like Larry Robinson and Denis Potvin probably deserve recognition too, but I just didn't see them play. Paul Coffey and Brian Leetch were too one-dimensional for me to include. Might as well have Phil Housley on the list. Chelios was pretty damn great in his prime, and he certainly gets points for longevity. He was just on the fringe of my top five. Pronger is a total bag of douche, but he's got a great game and it's no coincidence that Edmonton went to the Finals with him and Anaheim won it all with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) AND - I take issue with Orr as number one because he was so fragile. I mean - he was great but stamina HAS to fit in there. the body HAS to be able to take it. Brodeur has to be better than Roy because of his longevity. He may smash records - and many will say it's because he played so much longer -- but that's GOT to figure in to the equation. I'm not saying Orr wanted his body to crap out on him or it did because he was a less than decent player --- but I'm not going around saying Lindros was numero tres because he WOULD have put up crazy numbers for YEARS if only he's lasted. Why does the same never hold up for Orr? *insert tirade against stupid Boston fans* But for the time he played, his numbers were off-the-charts phenomenal: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=4085 I think that guys like Orr, Sandy Koufax, and Mike Bossy (to name a few), the short-term dominance guys who perform and then stop cold due their bodies giving out (but truly dominate while they play) belong in a category all their own. From 69-75 (six seasons) Orr's numbers were absurd...not just great, but all-world. Same for Bossy: from '77 to '86 (9 seasons) he put up less than 117 points just twice, and scored 51 to 69 goals throughout each of those nine seasons. Lindros never really performed at stratospheric level like that (though he did have some outstanding seasons), and unlike Lindros, these guys played in most of their games (less so Orr) until having to retire early due to injury. Lindros was almost a lock to miss about a quarter or so out of every season he played. Edited March 23, 2009 by Colorado Rockies 1976 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoJohnnyGo Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Here's the best I've seen play: Bourque Coffey Lapointe Orr Park Potvin Robinson Salming Savard Stevens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welcometotherock Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) Chelios was pretty damn great in his prime, and he certainly gets points for longevity. He was just on the fringe of my top five. Chelios had one heck of a career (I know its still going on, but all he has to add is another cup at this point in his career. -11 time all-star, 3 time norris winner, 3 cups, and silver medal ^thats not too shabby at all *comparing Chelios to Stevens the statistics are quite startling; 3 games played apart, 11g apart, 51a apart, 40+/-, and 100 pims apart. Edited March 23, 2009 by welcometotherock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas0nMacIsaac Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Are you an actuary yet? You really were MADE for that career track!I won't jump all over you for your list either -- I understand where you're coming from, and it's your opinion... no wait I take that back it is your determination/calculation. I think you intentionally try to take out any sentimentality you may feel for something you personally witnessed -- and with that you take out Stevens soul. If you were removed from him - not a fan of the team - you'd have a fuller scope of his contribution. The same way you can take the essence of historical players and add them into your total quotient. You're very obviously leaving that out for Stevens. You think in fairness... but it's not - you're purposely judging on half the picture because you fear your full picture is skewed. You are being less than objective I'm not saying Stevens wasn't a great defensmen. Hell, I still think he is the teams most important player in history and probably top 5 most important defensmen in history based on his worth to this team. There were just better defensemen overall then Stevens. Jagr was a better player then Bobby Clarke but I would take Clarke 9 times out of 10 for my team in the playoffs. I'm actually going in the airforce as a pilot. I finished my business degree and learned to hate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilsrule33 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Numbers don't even do Orr justice from what I have heard. Apparently he would just skate around the ice for two minutes on penalty kills. No one could take the puck away from him. He was the original offensive defenseman. No defenseman would just rush the puck up the ice. There are many people who regard Orr as the greatest player in hockey and some who say he was one of the greatest athletes of all time. From some of the things I have heard and seen that might not be do crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorcity Devil Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 1. Orr2. Stevens 3. Robinson 4. Shore 5. Potvin WINNER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyPilot18 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 As the official keeper of the "Scott Stevens K.O." I would like to add, that if he isn't included in your list, shame on you. FOR SHAAAAAME!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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