Lateralous Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 That's not what I meant. Is he a core player, star player, key player, first line center... Is this even a question? Bergeron is pretty much on one of the most underrated players of the last decade or so. He does different things as a player but he's like the Bruins version Elias compared to the guys who get much more recognition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 That's not what I meant. Is he a core player, star player, key player, first line center... Thats a pretty good question. I see him as a core player, not a star player, key player for sure, wouldnt be a first line center on half the teams in the league maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Is this even a question? Bergeron is pretty much on one of the most underrated players of the last decade or so. He does different things as a player but he's like the Bruins version Elias compared to the guys who get much more recognition. Evidently it is. Thats a pretty good question. I see him as a core player, not a star player, key player for sure, wouldnt be a first line center on half the teams in the league maybe. Fair enough, I can agree with that without much reservation. I do think that Zajac wouldn't do much worse than Bergeron if he had a generational defenseman (Chara) on the ice with him for 2/3rds of his icetime every night. Bergeron has always played with some pretty good wingers and look what Zajac could do with Parise/Langenbrunner and to a lesser extent with Kovalchuk. I don't think the difference between them is that big when you consider the surrounding players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Evidently it is. Fair enough, I can agree with that without much reservation. I do think that Zajac wouldn't do much worse than Bergeron if he had a generational defenseman (Chara) on the ice with him for 2/3rds of his icetime every night. Bergeron has always played with some pretty good wingers and look what Zajac could do with Parise/Langenbrunner and to a lesser extent with Kovalchuk. I don't think the difference between them is that big when you consider the surrounding players. I really like don't like those knocks like "he plays with that guy and that guy". Bergeron or those kind of players are the ones making all the little things which makes players around them better. He's clutch too and he's a leader too. I really don't dislike Zajac or anything, im glad we re-signed him cause then we'd be in big trouble but I just don't see much more than he's a useful player at times who can hold his own and play good defensively. He'll score the occasional goals that any top 6 players should score once in awhile but thats it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteyvegas51 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 It's time we move on without Patty. He'll always be the first up when talking about the glory years, but $5.5 is ridiculous. He's always hurt or invisible. With the occasional 3point game. Keep him for about $2.5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLL765 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 It's time we move on without Patty. He'll always be the first up when talking about the glory years, but $5.5 is ridiculous. He's always hurt or invisible. With the occasional 3point game. Keep him for about $2.5. You're nuts. Who around the league is getting paid $5.5M and producing much more than the .75ppg that Patty is? Alfredsson is doing a bit better, St. Louis, Phil Kessel. But then you have Shane Doan, Mike Ribiero, Mike Richards, who are all producing a bit less. I'd say his price point is right on for what he gives us, point wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I really like don't like those knocks like "he plays with that guy and that guy". Bergeron or those kind of players are the ones making all the little things which makes players around them better. He's clutch too and he's a leader too. Well, in knocking one guy you praise another. Finding out who is the "driver" on a line or in a unit is quite good to know, wouldn't you agree? WOWY (With Or Without You) is a thing and I'll bet you my house (which I don't have) that Bergeron's numbers take a hit without Chara as opposed to with him. They play a lot together so it's fair to wonder who has the biggest impact. I'm not out to knock Bergeron, I think he's great but I'm pretty sure without consulting numbers that he benefits a lot from being on the ice with Chara a lot. Zajac would surely benefit awhole lot too if he had a generational defender behind him. It's time we move on without Patty. He'll always be the first up when talking about the glory years, but $5.5 is ridiculous. He's always hurt or invisible. With the occasional 3point game. Keep him for about $2.5. You know he's signed for 2 more years a 5.5 beyond this one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 It's time we move on without Patty. He'll always be the first up when talking about the glory years, but $5.5 is ridiculous. He's always hurt or invisible. With the occasional 3point game. Keep him for about $2.5. Always hurt? Like last year, when he played in all 48 games, or the year before that, when he played in 81, and the year before that, when he also played in 81 games? Including this season, dating back to the start of the '10-'11 season (246 games, exactly three seasons' worth of games), he's scored 68 goals and had 135 assists for 203 points, on teams not exactly known for being offensive jaggernauts. He's not a highlight reel, but still a very effective player. And because he got hurt this season doesn't mean he's "always" hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouse Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 If you're going to criticize Zajac's weakness (points) and its effect on the team, you have to acknowledge his strength and its effect on the team. IMO the Devils' greatest strength this season has been their d. Considering how many injuries they've faced, and how many kids they've broken in (not to mention having to carry Marty in a couple of bad games), they've needed a lot of help. The backchecking of guys like Zajac and Elias (who's also been hurt) has been huge toward that end. It doesn't show up on the stat sheet, and we definitely need more scoring from our top guys, but if we've lost games because of a goal shortage, we've won them by keeping other teams off the board, and IMO Zajac's been a huge part of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 If you're going to criticize Zajac's weakness (points) and its effect on the team, you have to acknowledge his strength and its effect on the team. IMO the Devils' greatest strength this season has been their d. Considering how many injuries they've faced, and how many kids they've broken in (not to mention having to carry Marty in a couple of bad games), they've needed a lot of help. The backchecking of guys like Zajac and Elias (who's also been hurt) has been huge toward that end. It doesn't show up on the stat sheet, and we definitely need more scoring from our top guys, but if we've lost games because of a goal shortage, we've won them by keeping other teams off the board, and IMO Zajac's been a huge part of that. the only thing is, "most" top 6 centers or great players are doing the things he does + producing. Thats why they are what they are. At the end of the day to me a top center not producing is just as much of a problem than a guy who produce but doesnt play well defensively. It could be argued and im sure since we're devils fans here most will say its more important to be defensive but we can agree to disagree. the defensive play for a forward helps of course, but the opposing team still has to go through the defence + the goalie to get a goal. There's a safety net or backup if you can call it that. When your top center is not producing though you need your secondary scoring to produce even more and well thats not too great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecoffeecake Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) It's not about only his defensive play (which of course is fantastic). The way he moves the puck, his play along the boards, physical play and almost perfect decision making in all three zones. Try as you will, you won't find many players around the league who do all those things as well as he does. Granted most top 6 centers score a hell of a lot more, which is why Zajac isn't making 7 million in Winnipeg and playing in Sochi, but to knock a guy who brings so many skill sets, compliments everyone's game, brings passion on, and from what I understand, off the ice and works as hard as you can ask anyone to is insane. Now, last year's Zajac deserved this criticism, because he was generally flat aside from a few weeks. I think playing with Jagr has helped him tremendously. Edited January 22, 2014 by thecoffeecake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brown Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) I disagree that Zajac's contract has negative value. Cap hits with the new CBA are going to be higher than what they were under the old CBA. I fully believe that if John Madden or Bobby Holik were in their primes today, they'd be getting $6m a year. If you wanna look for a comparable, look no further than Dustin Brown or Jordan Staal. Both players are not as good as Travis Zajac. Edited January 22, 2014 by Mike Brown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouse Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 the only thing is, "most" top 6 centers or great players are doing the things he does + producing. Thats why they are what they are. At the end of the day to me a top center not producing is just as much of a problem than a guy who produce but doesnt play well defensively. It could be argued and im sure since we're devils fans here most will say its more important to be defensive but we can agree to disagree. the defensive play for a forward helps of course, but the opposing team still has to go through the defence + the goalie to get a goal. There's a safety net or backup if you can call it that. When your top center is not producing though you need your secondary scoring to produce even more and well thats not too great. Then again, if you call Elias our top center (which he is, based on production, even if his face-offs are terrible), Zajac is our number 2 center, and is one of our 2 best penalty killers and back-checkers, and our best face-off guy. Is he overvalued since he's paid more than Elias? Maybe. Then again, Elias is a crazy good value IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Then again, if you call Elias our top center (which he is, based on production, even if his face-offs are terrible), Zajac is our number 2 center, and is one of our 2 best penalty killers and back-checkers, and our best face-off guy. Is he overvalued since he's paid more than Elias? Maybe. Then again, Elias is a crazy good value IMO. never said either was overpaid. Its kind of hard now to value a contract cause some guys have lower cap hit with the front loaded deals and some who signed after the new CBA have way higher cap hit like Getzlaf or wtv. All im saying is that we can try to convince ourself all day that Zajac defensive play is so out of this world and sugarcoat it that he's worth a top spot. Truth is he's not a true #1 center, which we all knew. If we somehow land a true #1 center at some point he'd be a perfect #2 center Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njd3b1ink Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 It's time we move on without Patty. He'll always be the first up when talking about the glory years, but $5.5 is ridiculous. He's always hurt or invisible. With the occasional 3point game. Keep him for about $2.5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneax Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Sheesh, I'm still sh!t scared that we don't have a guy that can match patty's roll with the team, there is no way we should be giving up on him. He is so important to this team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ELIAS6 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 i cant even believe that someone would down talk elias like that.. he plays a super important role on this team and he adds to everyone elses success with that.. im happy we have him and if we didnt we would be in even more trouble with half the roster that we have here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouse Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 never said either was overpaid. Its kind of hard now to value a contract cause some guys have lower cap hit with the front loaded deals and some who signed after the new CBA have way higher cap hit like Getzlaf or wtv. All im saying is that we can try to convince ourself all day that Zajac defensive play is so out of this world and sugarcoat it that he's worth a top spot. Truth is he's not a true #1 center, which we all knew. If we somehow land a true #1 center at some point he'd be a perfect #2 center I was responding to people who said he was overpaid, not you in that regard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njdevsftw Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Zajacs contract is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brown Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Zajacs contract is ridiculous. It's actually fair. Expect similar players like him to get similar deals in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldply123 Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Negative value contracts are Brodeur, Volchenkov, Salvador, and Clowe. Neutral are Henrique, Schneider, Brunner, and Zidlicky, Zubrus, Zajac Positive are Ryder, Jagr, Greene The Elias deal has the potential to be a negative value contract the next few years if you look at it solely without the context of what Elias did in prior years and the fact he's a lifelong/legendary Devil. Zajac's deal, due to subpar offensive consistency/production at times, teeters on a negative/neutral tilt. However, it will have a few years where it's teetering on a positive/neutral tilt. I love having Zajac's defensive acumen, minutes, faceoff ability, so to me I'd lean more positive, but he's right now being paid quite well for not enough production offensively, but that will even itself out in a few years in a long-term contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmann422 Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Zajacs contract is ridiculous.thanks for that deep insight it really adds to the conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Negative value contracts are Brodeur, Volchenkov, Salvador, and Clowe. Neutral are Henrique, Schneider, Brunner, and Zidlicky, Zubrus, Zajac Positive are Ryder, Jagr, Greene The Elias deal has the potential to be a negative value contract the next few years if you look at it solely without the context of what Elias did in prior years and the fact he's a lifelong/legendary Devil. Zajac's deal, due to subpar offensive consistency/production at times, teeters on a negative/neutral tilt. However, it will have a few years where it's teetering on a positive/neutral tilt. I love having Zajac's defensive acumen, minutes, faceoff ability, so to me I'd lean more positive, but he's right now being paid quite well for not enough production offensively, but that will even itself out in a few years in a long-term contract. Neutral is Schneider? Guy signed for 4.25M, has an additional year on the contract, is an elite goalie and that's neutral? Steve Mason just signed Cory Schneider's contract. Lundqvist makes twice as much starting next year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilsfan118 Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) Neutral is Schneider? Guy signed for 4.25M, has an additional year on the contract, is an elite goalie and that's neutral? Steve Mason just signed Cory Schneider's contract. Lundqvist makes twice as much starting next year. Not to derail the thread, but what's the general consensus on how much it'll take to get Cory here long term? 8 year, 7? Shorter term, higher cap hit? Personally I'm hoping a nice 6-7 year, 6.5-7m cap hit works..but I think that's a little too optimistic. Edited January 23, 2014 by Devilsfan118 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Neutral is Schneider? Guy signed for 4.25M, has an additional year on the contract, is an elite goalie and that's neutral? Steve Mason just signed Cory Schneider's contract. Lundqvist makes twice as much starting next year. I wouldn't call it neutral, but the big issue is that he's only signed for one more year, although I'm not really worried about losing him for nothing. In any event, the whole exercise is kind of academic. Starting next year, this will not be a cap team, and we're not in the high priced free agent market anymore. There aren't really any contracts that are preventing the Devils from sowing something they otherwise would want to. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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