The Pete Deboer Thread

[nessus]

He doesn't have much to work with.

They're pretty much they exact same player only Gio, although smaller, is a tougher player.

They both shouldn't be in the NHL.

 

You should be a lawyer. This, to me, looks like, "Gionta is better just because he's better." There's no mention of Josefson being a skilled player, or knowing how to position himself defensively, or knowing how to pass well, or set up plays, etc.

 

Also, I think the Urbom fiasco shows that sneaking players to the AHL isn't a great option, especially if they mean something to the organization. Oates could use him on the 3rd line I bet.

[Triumph]

You should be a lawyer. This, to me, looks like, "Gionta is better just because he's better." There's no mention of Josefson being a skilled player, or knowing how to position himself defensively, or knowing how to pass well, or set up plays, etc.

 

Also, I think the Urbom fiasco shows that sneaking players to the AHL isn't a great option, especially if they mean something to the organization. Oates could use him on the 3rd line I bet.

 

A conditioning stint doesn't require waivers.

[Mike Brown]

Can someone please explain to me why Gionta is so beloved by Deboer?

[ATLL765]

Can someone please explain to me why Gionta is so beloved by Deboer?

Because he's like Rudy, the perfect underdog story. And he got lucky scoring a few goals.

[thefiestygoat]

A conditioning stint doesn't require waivers.

Is there a certain amount of time a team has to wait before they can send a player on a conditioning stint? When I looked it up all I found is that a player can only be loaned out for conditioning for up to 14 consecutive days. Nothing about how much time a NHL team would have to wait to make such a move.

[NJDevs4978]

This doesn't make any sense at all.  Peter Harrold wasn't used day 1 of the season in 2011-12.  Indeed, he wasn't even on the roster until near the end of the season.  Same with Stephen Gionta, who won a spot and then didn't lose it when Jacob Josefson came back.

 

Lou talks about it all the time, you need more than 20 guys if you're going to be doing anything.  I don't like Josefson sitting, but if he does it a little longer they can sneak him down to the AHL for a conditioning stint if they want.

 

Gionta literally got a spot by luck, and then got hot so no he didn't lose his spot but it wasn't any great stroke of genius that got him in the lineup either.  They were running the goon squad and other crappy forwards out there and finally found something to stick to the wall.  Harrold likewise got in the lineup when Larsson got hurt and played well enough to get a spot down the stretch, while Larsson struggled after he came back.  They both got in the lineup out of neccesity.

 

Yes you need more than 20 guys.  You can easily rotate Olesz-Carter and Gionta-Josefson but we won't do that and it looks like the scratches are going to be Lokti-Josefson for the next game with both Carter and Olesz playing and two faceoff-retarded centers (Henrique and Gionta).

[Derek21]

Here's Hasan's latest on DeBoer. Pretty appropriate title.

 

DeBoer's lineups continue to mystify

[caron14]

Here's Hasan's latest on DeBoer. Pretty appropriate title.

 

DeBoer's lineups continue to mystify

Love the article

[Anhkheg]

Here's Hasan's latest on DeBoer. Pretty appropriate title.

 

DeBoer's lineups continue to mystify

 

Hasan is so nice, he needs to throw in a few profanities. All of the Devils first rounders are sitting tonight and fringe AHL players are in the lineup.

[Triumph]

Gionta literally got a spot by luck, and then got hot so no he didn't lose his spot but it wasn't any great stroke of genius that got him in the lineup either.  They were running the goon squad and other crappy forwards out there and finally found something to stick to the wall.  Harrold likewise got in the lineup when Larsson got hurt and played well enough to get a spot down the stretch, while Larsson struggled after he came back.  They both got in the lineup out of neccesity.

 

And this differs how, exactly, from the situation right now?  Would it be a 'stroke of genius' if Zajac got hurt and Josefson went in for him?  No, it wouldn't.  But players get hurt and other people go in and you find out what they're capable of doing.  It's an 82 game season, and the Devils don't really have anyone in Albany that they should feel comfortable playing in anything beyond a pure fill in 4th line type role.

 

 

Yes you need more than 20 guys.  You can easily rotate Olesz-Carter and Gionta-Josefson but we won't do that and it looks like the scratches are going to be Lokti-Josefson for the next game with both Carter and Olesz playing and two faceoff-retarded centers (Henrique and Gionta).

 

Henrique is a better faceoff man than Loktionov, but who cares about faceoffs - not me, really.  They're not going to take Gionta out until he proves he's not doing the job.  He's getting close to doing that. 

[Pepperkorn]

Hasan is so nice, he needs to throw in a few profanities.

 

[Pepperkorn]

Vets don’t need ice time to flail around seeking a solution to a mental problem. 

 

Rookies need to put new lessons into practice in a real game situation.

 

Vets understand tough love, yes, it might be disheartening and it might force them into some really difficult self-examination.  But they are equipped for that.  The maturity that makes you WANT to play them is the same maturity that allows them to understand why you can’t.

 

Rookies do NOT understand benching.  It pretty much only serves to frustrate them and stops them from putting into play the lesson you just gave them.  The lesson goes away the minute they feel like they are being treated unfairly.  It is NOT down to the Rookie to grasp the lesson – it is down to the coach to communicate it EFFECTIVELY.

 

Vets cannot regain past skills – they can only adapt what they’ve got to achieve an equally effective result.  May not be the same result, it may be they have to get their points via assists rather than the goal. The point is though: THE MENTAL GAME CAN BE WORKED ON FROM THE BLEACHERS.

 

Rookies need to understand how they work ON ICE.  THEY CANNOT LEARN FROM THE BLEACHERS.  They do not have the right material yet to work on the mental game.  You cannot force someone to sit down and work on his mental game.  They have to get their physical game.  They have to have their ass handed to them and CHOOSE to sit down and get a clue.  And yes, they will.  If they succeed the wrong way they will eventual fail and learn their lesson.

 

A vet failing while doing all the right things WILL NOT START TO SUCCEED IF GIVEN ENOUGH TIME.  It sucks doesn’t it?  Maybe this runs against your mid-life crisis brain?  TOUGH sh!t!

 

Just consider the points above – consider them.

 

 

Yes there is middle ground. 

 

Salvadore and Gionta are not on any middle ground.  They are great guys with great hockey sense who CANNOT RELIABLY PUT THAT KNOWLEDGE INTO PLAY.

 

Fayne and the like NEED TO PLAY.  NO THEY ARE NOT OLD ENOUGH TO KNOW BETTER.  LIKE HENRIQUE AND ZAJAC THEY HAVE TO PLAY THROUGH THE ROUGH SPOTS TO LEARN THE LESSONS. BENCHING IS TO PUT A BLIND FOLD ON THEM.  Don’t be a stupid willful, stubborn, wasteful ass about it.

 

Sure I may be all wrong but then think about why it is this is what things look like and fix your tack.  You’re off

[LynchDev]

Coaches aren't paid to develop players, they're paid to win.  This leads to tricky situations like the ones above - it's tough to separate past results from possible future results, especially since coaches have a hundred other things to worry about.  Still, you don't get to play the Corsi card with Gionta, then say that Larsson belongs in the lineup - he's clearly the worst of the Devils' RHD in this field.  On the other hand, it leads a coach to play Gionta because he has results with him - he's not looking at Gionta's hockeydb and furrowing his brow and wondering if this guy can do the job - he's seen him 'do the job' for 60+ games.  It's going to take some doing, but again, Carter's out of the lineup tonight, I don't see why that makes Gionta untouchable - they're abandoning the CBGB line 3 games into the season, something nearly unthinkable at the beginning of last season.  If Gionta performs how I expect him to, he won't survive the healthy scratch axe for long.

 

As for Larsson, one game here and there isn't the end of the world.  Patrik Elias was healthy scratched in the playoffs in 1997-98 and he was 13 months older than Larsson at the time.  I expect Larsson play 65-70 games.  Right now, Harrold is outplaying him.

While that is definitely true about coaches being paid to win, I think they do take part in player development once they get to the NHL. As for Gionta,  you were spot on. I think people who doubt Gionta think the stats matter in his case. I truly believe Gionta is a great skater who can grind it out on the fourth line and get in the dirty spots.

[NewarkDevil5]

Vets don’t need ice time to flail around seeking a solution to a mental problem. 

 

Rookies need to put new lessons into practice in a real game situation.

 

Vets understand tough love, yes, it might be disheartening and it might force them into some really difficult self-examination.  But they are equipped for that.  The maturity that makes you WANT to play them is the same maturity that allows them to understand why you can’t.

 

Rookies do NOT understand benching.  It pretty much only serves to frustrate them and stops them from putting into play the lesson you just gave them.  The lesson goes away the minute they feel like they are being treated unfairly.  It is NOT down to the Rookie to grasp the lesson – it is down to the coach to communicate it EFFECTIVELY.

 

Vets cannot regain past skills – they can only adapt what they’ve got to achieve an equally effective result.  May not be the same result, it may be they have to get their points via assists rather than the goal. The point is though: THE MENTAL GAME CAN BE WORKED ON FROM THE BLEACHERS.

 

Rookies need to understand how they work ON ICE.  THEY CANNOT LEARN FROM THE BLEACHERS.  They do not have the right material yet to work on the mental game.  You cannot force someone to sit down and work on his mental game.  They have to get their physical game.  They have to have their ass handed to them and CHOOSE to sit down and get a clue.  And yes, they will.  If they succeed the wrong way they will eventual fail and learn their lesson.

 

A vet failing while doing all the right things WILL NOT START TO SUCCEED IF GIVEN ENOUGH TIME.  It sucks doesn’t it?  Maybe this runs against your mid-life crisis brain?  TOUGH sh!t!

 

Just consider the points above – consider them.

 

 

Yes there is middle ground. 

 

Salvadore and Gionta are not on any middle ground.  They are great guys with great hockey sense who CANNOT RELIABLY PUT THAT KNOWLEDGE INTO PLAY.

 

Fayne and the like NEED TO PLAY.  NO THEY ARE NOT OLD ENOUGH TO KNOW BETTER.  LIKE HENRIQUE AND ZAJAC THEY HAVE TO PLAY THROUGH THE ROUGH SPOTS TO LEARN THE LESSONS. BENCHING IS TO PUT A BLIND FOLD ON THEM.  Don’t be a stupid willful, stubborn, wasteful ass about it.

 

Sure I may be all wrong but then think about why it is this is what things look like and fix your tack.  You’re off

 

What she said.

[SterioDesign]

ok let's wait a second here... Could it be possible that we're going through those frustrations having to see guys play that shouldnt because Lou is asking DeBoer to showcase some guys for a possible trade?

 

...probably not but hey... let's try to think positive lol

[ATLL765]

While that is definitely true about coaches being paid to win, I think they do take part in player development once they get to the NHL. As for Gionta,  you were spot on. I think people who doubt Gionta think the stats matter in his case. I truly believe Gionta is a great skater who can grind it out on the fourth line and get in the dirty spots.

That's because the stats always matter. And even watching him you can see he's not that great. On the PK especially as he over-skates and waves his stick around in an attempt to block the lane he's no longer in.

[Devilsfan118]

ok let's wait a second here... Could it be possible that we're going through those frustrations having to see guys play that shouldnt because Lou is asking DeBoer to showcase some guys for a possible trade?

 

...probably not but hey... let's try to think positive lol

 

Wishful thinking.

[redruM]

 

Yea, that Lemaire guy just had no clue what he was doing

 

Where did I say that??  its always easier to put words in my mouth, then to actually understand what I'm saying...  I've been on these baords or their predecessors since 1995... trust me many of us complained about ALemaire's lines.

but for the record, after 95, lemaire had very little success in the playoffs, lets not make him out to be gods gift...

[ATLL765]

Where did I say that??  its always easier to put words in my mouth, then to actually understand what I'm saying...  I've been on these baords or their predecessors since 1995... trust me many of us complained about ALemaire's lines.

but for the record, after 95, lemaire had very little success in the playoffs, lets not make him out to be gods gift...

IIRC, Lemaire's last tenure as coach(last contract he had, not after the Johnny Mac disaster), one of the bigger complaints was the constant line juggling.

[Daniel]

IIRC, Lemaire's last tenure as coach(last contract he had, not after the Johnny Mac disaster), one of the bigger complaints was the constant line juggling.

 

More coaches juggle lines than not it seems.

[thefiestygoat]

So Josefson is only in the line up tonight due to Carter being injured and Larsson is back in but at the expense of Fayne. Awesome. Ugh.

 

I won't bitch too much about Loktionov being out since his D is suspect but it is frustrating to have Gionta in the line up over him. I hope Loktionov doesn't sit out too much. I also hope that Larsson and Fayne don't get pulled in and out of the line up at each other's expense all year - though I kinda expect it.

[NJDevs4978]

 

I won't bitch too much about Loktionov being out since his D is suspect but it is frustrating to have Gionta in the line up over him. I hope Loktionov doesn't sit out too much. I also hope that Larsson and Fayne don't get pulled in and out of the line up at each other's expense all year - though I kinda expect it.

 

There's no reason not to expect it at this point...unless Larsson or Fayne learns how to shoot lefty.

What's comical is Fayne played 20+ minutes and Volch around 13, yet Fayne's the one to be scratched.

[NJDevs4978]

Here's Hasan's latest on DeBoer. Pretty appropriate title.

 

DeBoer's lineups continue to mystify

 

 

Hasan is so nice, he needs to throw in a few profanities. All of the Devils first rounders are sitting tonight and fringe AHL players are in the lineup.

 

lol...sometimes plain ol' facts and sarcasm can provide underrated humor

 

Of course Pete decided to cross me up and scratch Fayne again for Larsson.

[thefiestygoat]

There's no reason not to expect it at this point...unless Larsson or Fayne learns how to shoot lefty.

What's comical is Fayne played 20+ minutes and Volch around 13, yet Fayne's the one to be scratched.

I'm always a bit baffled how Fayne will be healthy scratched for periods at a time, then get in a game and play a lot of minutes normally against the same or better competition than Volchenkov and some of the other D. How is the guy not good enough to be a starter but then good enough to have more responsibility than the some of the other D when he plays?

 

Wouldn't blame Fayne if he did this (NSFW):

[Triumph]

Comes down to sides and responsibility.  One of the weird parts of the beginning of this season is that NJ hasn't been killing penalties or on the PP really at all.  8 PPs (one at the very end of a game), 9 PKs, average around the league is 7 PP/PK a game, NJ is just over 4.  I think they want Harrold on the PP and Volchenkov on the PK.