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New Kovy Update ("As the Kovy Turns")


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Burke went on record today that he believes the Kovalchuk situation is preventing us from being more involved in Kaberle. Interesting statement - I wonder if Lou has been in serious contact with Burke about a trade, but can't pull the trigger because of what's going on.

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So now you want a soft cap with lots of technicalities and specific exceptions, making the cap even more arbitrary than it all ready is? Just think how that will turn out. The way you keep your league respectable is by maintaining the rules you set forth. Once you start down the road of exceptions (see: the NBA) you hit the slippery slope of destroying the cap altogether.

Why even have the luxury tax? A tax just equals a higher cap for big market teams if ya know what I mean. And teams like the Phoenix Coyotes won't complain when they only get 25 wins a season because of the money they're getting paid from the tax (see: the MLB). It's literally "keep your mouth shut" money.

They're is already a rule in place to let you keep your homegrown talent - it's called restricted free agency. With a 59 mill cap and restricted free agency it's very hard to steal a player away without damaging your team. With a luxury tax, restricted free agency becomes a joke. No matter how loyal a player feels to a team he's not going to turn down a ridiculous offer from the Rangers.

With the unrestricted free agency system in the NHL, players go to teams that they WANT to play for. Sure, some teams are going to lose their stars but it's only because they didn't have a good experience on the team or the team is low-balling them. A team like the Coyotes can now compete with a team like the Red Wings for the best player. Sure, the player is more likely to be drawn into playing for Detroit, but it won't be because they're offering more money. I mean when a player like Kovy is a FA and Detroit, New York, Chicago and Montreal, etc... are not in the bidding, you're league is doing something right.

Agreed, for the most part. Well put.

But, in response to what I bolded, then I think that front-loaded retirement contracts should most certainly be allowed. I mean, it doesn't take much for an RFA to go to arbitration for a short contract until his UFA years, and then leave a team for much more money. If a player's hell-bent on leaving (See: Kovalchuck) he's going to, but if it's just a $ and cents issue...it's a damn shame for a small team to lose it's only marquee player.

That, or I'm still a big fan of a % discount for resigning a drafted player.

Burke went on record today that he believes the Kovalchuk situation is preventing us from being more involved in Kaberle. Interesting statement - I wonder if Lou has been in serious contact with Burke about a trade, but can't pull the trigger because of what's going on.

I don't see why Lou wouldn't pull the trigger right now if he had the chance to (assuming Lou's salary problems are solved in the trade, or a subsequent [and immediate] trade). Burke's just stirring the pot imo, I can't see the devils getting kaberle

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So now you want a soft cap with lots of technicalities and specific exceptions, making the cap even more arbitrary than it all ready is? Just think how that will turn out. The way you keep your league respectable is by maintaining the rules you set forth. Once you start down the road of exceptions (see: the NBA) you hit the slippery slope of destroying the cap altogether.

Why even have the luxury tax? A tax just equals a higher cap for big market teams if ya know what I mean. And teams like the Phoenix Coyotes won't complain when they only get 25 wins a season because of the money they're getting paid from the tax (see: the MLB). It's literally "keep your mouth shut" money.

They're is already a rule in place to let you keep your homegrown talent - it's called restricted free agency. With a 59 mill cap and restricted free agency it's very hard to steal a player away without damaging your team. With a luxury tax, restricted free agency becomes a joke. No matter how loyal a player feels to a team he's not going to turn down a ridiculous offer from the Rangers.

With the unrestricted free agency system in the NHL, players go to teams that they WANT to play for. Sure, some teams are going to lose their stars but it's only because they didn't have a good experience on the team or the team is low-balling them. A team like the Coyotes can now compete with a team like the Red Wings for the best player. Sure, the player is more likely to be drawn into playing for Detroit, but it won't be because they're offering more money. I mean when a player like Kovy is a FA and Detroit, New York, Chicago and Montreal, etc... are not in the bidding, you're league is doing something right.

holy sh!t you overreact easy LOL I posted 8 words to your kneejerk reaction that everyone goes to the Rags or Wings. Fine, you win.

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Agree with Tri that, to an extent, Kaberle may be on the decline.

67 pts in 05-06

58 in 06-07

53 in 07-08

*31 in 08-09 (57 games played)

49 in 09-10

11 goals is the most he's ever scored. He scored 7 last year.

In effect, he's Paul Martin with a bit better passing and vision, but without the defensive prowess.

All of this having been stated, I still think Jersey is better off not signing Kovalchuk now and trying to trade for Kaberle. He's still a decent puck mover. We have just about no one (I think expectations for Greene need to be realistic--he's not proven yet at all). Not signing K-chuk allows us to absolutely offer Parise anything he wants, a better team guy than Kovalchuk, and signing Kaberle to a short extension (say 3 yrs) wouldn't be the worst thing, even if he ends up just being a 40 point D-man. NJ could use that still.

I've thought all along that the only true benefit to signing Kovalchuk is the likelihood that some players HAVE to get forced out, such as Rolston. But if Kovalchuk only forces out someone like Zubrus/Salvador (Zubrus works hard every single shift and you have to respect that), then it's a bit more hazy as to the benefit. Kovalchuk almost certainly stunts the growth of any potential rookies in the system (say Tendenby). I'd rather see us be a "team" and let some youngsters take on some significant minutes.

Of course, Kovalchuk is an awesome offensive player. There is no denying that. And maybe signing him could be a prelude to the post-Brodeur era. I'm not sure. Still, my plan would be to trade for Kaberle. He may not be as good as he was previously, but a few years of 40 points is a-ok.

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All of this having been stated, I still think Jersey is better off not signing Kovalchuk now and trying to trade for Kaberle. He's still a decent puck mover. We have just about no one (I think expectations for Greene need to be realistic--he's not proven yet at all). Not signing K-chuk allows us to absolutely offer Parise anything he wants, a better team guy than Kovalchuk, and signing Kaberle to a short extension (say 3 yrs) wouldn't be the worst thing, even if he ends up just being a 40 point D-man. NJ could use that still.

Yeahh...except there's no guarantee that kaberle resigns here at all. So if he were to walk (which, I suspect he would), we'd be:

(-)kovalchuck

(-)whoever we traded for a rental in kaberle

(+)whomever's salary we didn't unload for kovalchuck's contract (like you said, potential benefit to kovy is forcing rolston or someone else out)

So we'd essentially be...back where we started. With an older brodeur, elias...and no new faces.

At this point, since this much time has been invested in kovy...I think it's by far the best option to keep him. The Devils could still theoretically trade for kaberle if everything fell into place correctly, even with kovy.

Edited by Devsfan118
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Agreed, for the most part. Well put.

But, in response to what I bolded, then I think that front-loaded retirement contracts should most certainly be allowed. I mean, it doesn't take much for an RFA to go to arbitration for a short contract until his UFA years, and then leave a team for much more money. If a player's hell-bent on leaving (See: Kovalchuck) he's going to, but if it's just a $ and cents issue...it's a damn shame for a small team to lose it's only marquee player.

If a player wants to leave a team you gotta let him go. You can't put rules in place to stop him from doing that after his contract is over or there wouldn't be such a thing as free agency. The point is, other teams won't be able to give the player much more than you're offering.

holy sh!t you overreact easy LOL I posted 8 words to your kneejerk reaction that everyone goes to the Rags or Wings. Fine, you win.

With all due respect, I wasn't overreacting. I simply - or complexly gave you an extended and specific answer so that I could fully explain why your assertions don't make sense to me. Sure, I could have skipped over your post by answering it with one line, but I had a lot to say and wanted to respect your post with seriousness. Why shouldn't I back up my argument with solid points?

When someone goes out of their way to take time and respond to your post, you should think before accusing them of overreacting. :cheers:

Edited by ben00rs
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Agree with Tri that, to an extent, Kaberle may be on the decline.

67 pts in 05-06

58 in 06-07

53 in 07-08

*31 in 08-09 (57 games played)

49 in 09-10

11 goals is the most he's ever scored. He scored 7 last year.

In effect, he's Paul Martin with a bit better passing and vision, but without the defensive prowess.

All of this having been stated, I still think Jersey is better off not signing Kovalchuk now and trying to trade for Kaberle. He's still a decent puck mover. We have just about no one (I think expectations for Greene need to be realistic--he's not proven yet at all). Not signing K-chuk allows us to absolutely offer Parise anything he wants, a better team guy than Kovalchuk, and signing Kaberle to a short extension (say 3 yrs) wouldn't be the worst thing, even if he ends up just being a 40 point D-man. NJ could use that still.

these notions of 'puck mover' really confuse me. 'cause if it's about points, that's just nonsense. tallinder has almost as many even strength points as kaberle over the last 3 seasons. and you can see why lou thinks he's replacing paul martin by bringing in tallinder too.

points at ES per 82 games:

kaberle:

07-08: 23

08-09: 18

09-10: 24

tallinder:

07-08: 20

08-09: 14

09-10: 20

but that's all nonsense anyway since you weren't really talking about points. i guess the question becomes, how much do 'puck moving defensemen' (i have come to loathe this term) affect offense at even strength? i'm not convinced that besides the top defenders, they really do all that much. i'd believe that they help with drawing penalties. i'd believe they do increase scoring at even strength, though those that are weaker on defense also cost goals. it'd be tough to ferret out that effect because i'd bet that kaberle was more often matched up with his team's best scorers, but i believe it exists. it's also possible that these D-men, as 'high-event' players (i.e. they will create scoring chances for but will give up scoring chances against), help in games in which a team trails, because high event plays are good in that situation.

there is no indication that kaberle helps territorially according to fenwick - he gets the best ice time in terms of zone start, but is only moderately better than his team in terms of fenwick. and in fact, he has the worst zone start to zone finish ratio on the leafs - he started 58% of his non-neutral zone shifts in the offensive zone, but finished only 51% in the offensive zone. i'll do more math if it's needed, but the results don't look that pretty so far.

I've thought all along that the only true benefit to signing Kovalchuk is the likelihood that some players HAVE to get forced out, such as Rolston. But if Kovalchuk only forces out someone like Zubrus/Salvador (Zubrus works hard every single shift and you have to respect that), then it's a bit more hazy as to the benefit. Kovalchuk almost certainly stunts the growth of any potential rookies in the system (say Tendenby). I'd rather see us be a "team" and let some youngsters take on some significant minutes.

most of the youngsters are probably not ready this year. josefson shouldn't be in the NHL because it will cost NJ millions if he is (his deal won't count a year unless he plays 11 NHL games). who else are you going to play?

Of course, Kovalchuk is an awesome offensive player. There is no denying that. And maybe signing him could be a prelude to the post-Brodeur era. I'm not sure. Still, my plan would be to trade for Kaberle. He may not be as good as he was previously, but a few years of 40 points is a-ok.

i don't care about points from defensemen. i care about the effectiveness of the power play and the effectiveness of the team at even strength. and i think the team can get by without a *groan* puck moving defenseman - they have to play a sutter system, with forechecking and the like, but they should have a large territorial advantage next season with kovalchuk in the fold. the more i look at the advanced numbers, the more i see that kaberle isn't very good.

Edited by Triumph
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maybe everyone just gets caught up in "puck movers" just because they see what Pittsburgh's like without Gonchar :noclue:

And I know it's a different team (kind of) but under Sutter we scored fine with pretty much the same group of d-men minus Martin who didn't put up the points everyone would've liked him to, so we'll be fine.

Kovy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kaberle

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maybe everyone just gets caught up in "puck movers" just because they see what Pittsburgh's like without Gonchar :noclue:

And I know it's a different team (kind of) but under Sutter we scored fine with pretty much the same group of d-men minus Martin who didn't put up the points everyone would've liked him to, so we'll be fine.

Kovy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kaberle

Gonchar sucked last year. Maybe they had no one to replace them, but I think the Pens issues went far beyond that. When you can't get people lined up properly on the PP, to set up one-timers, it doesn't have that much to do with Gonchar.

IMO, Martin is a much better player than Gonchar. He probably won't put up the PP numbers, but in every other facet of the game, he destroys Gonchar. alot of these "puck movers" are not good 5 on 5... even offensively.

Ottawa, well, I don't know what they were thinking.

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I like stuff happening. I like all of you guys being engaged in what the team is doing. I like the press gabbing - I like that the tri-state area is as focused on the Devils as I am. I dont like shouting and thrilling and despairing and stuff all by myself for the most part like I am most off seasons.

I really had hoped when Stevens retired I'd stop thinking so much about Devils hockey. it's just so compelling though. I love hockey personalities. Baseball actually is the only sport that comes close to the player fan relationship -- it's the time you spend together in the sport I think that creates that involvement.

Football is fleeting. it's great - the GAME is freaking AWESOME - but you don't get sucked in by the daily goings on of players. If you do it's nonsense like Michael Vick, Whathisface Rothlisberger or Tom Brady (oy what happened to him - Avery must be jealous as all heck- fruitcake) I like college football best because the team is the living entity not the star players like with the pros. Colleges set up the winning traditions - the players play for their dads and grandads and uncles and aunts and great uncles and aunts and great great grand dads etc and so forth if it's like Michigan and my family :giggle:

Basketball players are all sort of bonged on the head - -they float through the game not really controlling their own success. That's the thing I never see a system that can seriously be implemented by a basketball team. It's just a young game still it feels to me. No one in it has that lineage - it's a new amazing fresh thing for everyone (if it's your thing) For me I need something more established. the fact ONE DUDE liek Michael jordan can control an entire team year in and year out -- something is just not set up right in that sport. :noclue: (and I ask why we have a problem with Bettman... :doh1: )

but baseball is a stayed sport like hockey. The sport is an entity all on it's own. You can create a team - a single group of guys together to form one single entity really. The successful organization thinks of players as all important peices that have to fit together some are glue some are worker bees some are lights to shine for whatever purpose.

I think Lou has to come to appreciate the light Kovalchuk has. it's not easy for that kind of light, It's not an A-line light, it's not a Brodeur light - it's not a Stevens light. It's a... a flashlight - it might flicker -- it might need batteries now and again and it serves no purpose but it is there... and it's real and it's for emergency - it's piece of mind - it's for making handpuppets and other trivialities --- but is real and valuable. It's entertainment. :noclue:

ok so... :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: goodnight I guess... :P

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well i really hope Kovalchuk is a devils by the time im getting NHL11 geez... lol he's my top scorer in my season

he'll probably still be unrestricted in the game when you first get it but they'll have a roster update out or you could just sign him if he's still just sitting there :P

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