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#1 Daniel

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 02:48 PM

http://www.washingto...e945_story.html

I think this level of depravity speaks for itself. Something for people who lament the impending "theoracy" that's supposedly right around the corner to think about.

It makes it very hard for me to want the US to withdraw from that part of the world and let the chips fall where they may.
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#2 DevilMinder

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:09 PM

I read that this morning. Sending out killers to mow down a bus just to teach a 14 year old girl a lesson, such a disgusting action.
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#3 Daniel

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:44 PM

I read that this morning. Sending out killers to mow down a bus just to teach a 14 year old girl a lesson, such a disgusting action.


Sadly, that's what civilization is up against. You ask the killers why they did it, they would creduously tell you that it's the highest calling in life. In fact, they would tell you it would be immoral not to do it.
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#4 squishyx

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:43 PM

http://www.washingto...e945_story.html

I think this level of depravity speaks for itself. Something for people who lament the impending "theoracy" that's supposedly right around the corner to think about.

It makes it very hard for me to want the US to withdraw from that part of the world and let the chips fall where they may.

I don't understand the significance of the title. Are you suggesting that extremists from the religious right doesn't commit atrocities?
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#5 Daniel

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:29 PM

I don't understand the significance of the title. Are you suggesting that extremists from the religious right doesn't commit atrocities?


That's really bad moral equivalency, even by moral equivalency standards. The guy you're referring to was mentally ill, either bipolar or schizophrenic.

I just have to roll my eyes, same as you would if I stated that Obama supporters are just as prone to violence as Taliban primitives, based on that women who shot a bunch of people at the U. Alabama Huntsville.

The religious right in this country does not do things like this. You know this of course. Otherwise I would hope you actually do something about it besides commenting about politics on a sports team message board.
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#6 Jimmy Leeds

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:03 PM

Squishy loves to defend the Islamofascists.
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#7 squishyx

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:49 AM

Squishy loves to defend the Islamofascists.

Nope, just consistently denouncing all forms of extremism.
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#8 squishyx

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:56 AM

That's really bad moral equivalency, even by moral equivalency standards. The guy you're referring to was mentally ill, either bipolar or schizophrenic.

I just have to roll my eyes, same as you would if I stated that Obama supporters are just as prone to violence as Taliban primitives, based on that women who shot a bunch of people at the U. Alabama Huntsville.

The religious right in this country does not do things like this. You know this of course. Otherwise I would hope you actually do something about it besides commenting about politics on a sports team message board.

If your post had just been about this guys killing I wouldn't have said a word. But it seems like you are trying to make the argument that since there are terribly deranged brainwashed terrorists, or extremists or zealots (insert whatever word that JL will accuse me of not calling them) in the middle east who commit unthinkable atrocities, that somehow we are anymore immune to such lunacy and our "extreme" wing is lessened by compassion. Maybe it's more prevalent in that part of the world right now, but 1st nations are still suffering from people who are too far to one end of the crazy wagon.

Why is it when something terrible happens over there it's because he is a Muslim, or because he hates US or freedom but when something happens here "it's just a crazy guy ignore him".
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#9 Daniel

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:59 AM

If your post had just been about this guys killing I wouldn't have said a word. But it seems like you are trying to make the argument that since there are terribly deranged brainwashed terrorists, or extremists or zealots (insert whatever word that JL will accuse me of not calling them) in the middle east who commit unthinkable atrocities, that somehow we are anymore immune to such lunacy and our "extreme" wing is lessened by compassion. Maybe it's more prevalent in that part of the world right now, but 1st nations are still suffering from people who are too far to one end of the crazy wagon.

Why is it when something terrible happens over there it's because he is a Muslim, or because he hates US or freedom but when something happens here "it's just a crazy guy ignore him".


Yes, I am saying that this is something that is LARGELY or maybe even OVERWHELMINGLY, but not entirely, unique to terrorists and fundamentalists of the Islamic persuasion. To the extent that any of this stuff happens in any other part of the world, it's usually a lone nut or an isolated phenemon. The fact that you don't really fear for your physical well-being from the religious right in this country, but you would if you lived in Pakistan, makes the point so obvious.

No Catholics rioted in the street or killed people over Piss Christ. People who convert from ANY other religion in the world (even Scientology) do not face death sentences. If you heard that a suicide bomb went off in a crowded market place you would make an assumption about who the perpetrator was, and 99 percent of the time you'd be correct.

Without taking any sense of proporionality into consideration, you just put your head in the sand. Not only is it intellectually dishonest, it doesn't do very much for the groups that are overwhelmingly the victims of these atrocities.
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#10 squishyx

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:21 AM

Yes, I am saying that this is something that is LARGELY or maybe even OVERWHELMINGLY, but not entirely, unique to terrorists and fundamentalists of the Islamic persuasion. To the extent that any of this stuff happens in any other part of the world, it's usually a lone nut or an isolated phenemon. The fact that you don't really fear for your physical well-being from the religious right in this country, but you would if you lived in Pakistan, makes the point so obvious.

No Catholics rioted in the street or killed people over Piss Christ. People who convert from ANY other religion in the world (even Scientology) do not face death sentences. If you heard that a suicide bomb went off in a crowded market place you would make an assumption about who the perpetrator was, and 99 percent of the time you'd be correct.

I don't make any assumptions, that's a pretty dangerous line of thought to have. What does that get you anyway? Do you feel a little better every time the gunman prays in a mosque instead of a church? Does it justify this small view of the world where it's a "us vs them" mentality"? What did you instantly think of Anders Breivik, or James Holmes, or One Goh, or Seung-Hui Cho, or Jerry Sandusky, or Michael Page? When it turned out they weren't Muslims they just fall into the "crazy" bucket that we don't talk about.

A little girl was tragically shot for speaking out against oppression. She's a hero, and she was a hero before she was attacked. I hope the shooter is captured and put to justice, as well do, that's the thing that goes without saying. But that doesn't change anything, our country is averaging 20 mass shootings every year. We've got our own problems with extremism right here at home.

Without taking any sense of proporionality into consideration, you just put your head in the sand. Not only is it intellectually dishonest, it doesn't do very much for the groups that are overwhelmingly the victims of these atrocities.

Oh please. You make this entire thread basically to provoke the left and now you want to complain about intellectual dishonesty? And our "commenting about politics on a sports team message board" does nothing either way to the victims of those atrocities.

Terrible things happen every day, for whatever reason people on this board are only interested in highlighting the sh!tty things that Muslims do. And had you just done that, I wouldn't have said a peep (although secretly wondered why many of our domestic incidents don't get coverage). But no, you had to try and make a point to say "wow look how terrible some of Muslims are, everyone should stop complaining about Christian extremism". Well you know what? Compared to the Nazi's the terrorists of today are pretty mild, so I guess we shouldn't complain about them either right?

No, they are both terrible comparisons, and we should be rooting out extremism in every form we can find it.

Edited by squishyx, 10 October 2012 - 09:25 AM.

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#11 Daniel

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:45 AM

I don't make any assumptions, that's a pretty dangerous line of thought to have. What does that get you anyway? Do you feel a little better every time the gunman prays in a mosque instead of a church? Does it justify this small view of the world where it's a "us vs them" mentality"? What did you instantly think of Anders Breivik, or James Holmes, or One Goh, or Seung-Hui Cho, or Jerry Sandusky, or Michael Page? When it turned out they weren't Muslims they just fall into the "crazy" bucket that we don't talk about.

A little girl was tragically shot for speaking out against oppression. She's a hero, and she was a hero before she was attacked. I hope the shooter is captured and put to justice, as well do, that's the thing that goes without saying. But that doesn't change anything, our country is averaging 20 mass shootings every year. We've got our own problems with extremism right here at home.


Oh please. You make this entire thread basically to provoke the left and now you want to complain about intellectual dishonesty? And our "commenting about politics on a sports team message board" does nothing either way to the victims of those atrocities.

Terrible things happen every day, for whatever reason people on this board are only interested in highlighting the sh!tty things that Muslims do.


You are again avoiding the principal. Do you honestly fear that you're going to be the victim of a mass shooting in the US or Europe? Do you avoid discussing the fact that you're Jewish and pro-choice specifically for fear that some Christian Fundamentalist, White Supremacist or militiaman is going to murder you? Do you at all change your behavior? I seriously doubt that you do. On the other hand, would you take special precautions if you went to Pakistan for actual fear of being the victim of an attack by Islamic terrorist? You'd be a fool not to.

Also, beyond the rarity with which mass shootings actually take place in the US and Europe, the vast majority of those have no religious or political motivation. They're usually the result of mental illness or personal grudges. Those are phenomena that do merit discussion, and actually are discussed extensively here and elsewhere. There's just very little discussion of Christian fundamentalist terrorism because it rarely happens, or rarely enough that it does not effect the day-to-day lives of nonbelievers or blasphemers anywhere in the world.
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#12 squishyx

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:02 AM

You are again avoiding the principal. Do you honestly fear that you're going to be the victim of a mass shooting in the US or Europe? Do you avoid discussing the fact that you're Jewish and pro-choice specifically for fear that some Christian Fundamentalist, White Supremacist or militiaman is going to murder you? Do you at all change your behavior? I seriously doubt that you do. On the other hand, would you take special precautions if you went to Pakistan for actual fear of being the victim of an attack by Islamic terrorist? You'd be a fool not to.

For starters I'm pro-life, I know I have become the stand-in for "liberal democrat" since most of the true liberals have basically left this page and that relatively I am more "left" then most of the posters who actually post here, but I consider myself very moderate overall.

Would I be a little cautious travelling to Pakistan? Sure, not because they are Muslim but because America and by association Americans aren't terribly popular there right. But you are cherry picking hotbed countries because I would have no problem travelling to Indonesia (the most populated Muslim country on the planet).

Also, beyond the rarity with which mass shootings actually take place in the US and Europe, the vast majority of those have no religious or political motivation. They're usually the result of mental illness or personal grudges. Those are phenomena that do merit discussion, and actually are discussed extensively here and elsewhere. There's just very little discussion of Christian fundamentalist terrorism because it rarely happens, or rarely enough that it does not effect the day-to-day lives of nonbelievers or blasphemers anywhere in the world.

Again you are trying to castigate them off into the crazy bin and say "well they are just crazy nothing we can really do about it" and that very well may be true. But why are you not willing to extend that same reasoning to extremists in the middle-east? You don't think you have to be just a little bit crazy to believe the propaganda, to accept the indoctrination to believe that hijacking a plane killing thousands of people is justified? I am not arguing that they are generating far more violence then other religious groups, but there are geo-political reasons for why it's occurring in that area. The problem I keep trying to re-enforce is not that they are Muslims, it's that they are extremists.
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#13 Daniel

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:24 AM

For starters I'm pro-life, I know I have become the stand-in for "liberal democrat" since most of the true liberals have basically left this page and that relatively I am more "left" then most of the posters who actually post here, but I consider myself very moderate overall.

Would I be a little cautious travelling to Pakistan? Sure, not because they are Muslim but because America and by association Americans aren't terribly popular there right. But you are cherry picking hotbed countries because I would have no problem travelling to Indonesia (the most populated Muslim country on the planet).


Again you are trying to castigate them off into the crazy bin and say "well they are just crazy nothing we can really do about it" and that very well may be true. But why are you not willing to extend that same reasoning to extremists in the middle-east? You don't think you have to be just a little bit crazy to believe the propaganda, to accept the indoctrination to believe that hijacking a plane killing thousands of people is justified? I am not arguing that they are generating far more violence then other religious groups, but there are geo-political reasons for why it's occurring in that area. The problem I keep trying to re-enforce is not that they are Muslims, it's that they are extremists.


Islamic fundamentalists that commit acts of mass killing are not mentally ill, at least in the sense that putting them in the "crazy bin" is besides the point. And it is the result of how the religion is actually practiced by a significant number of people. (Note that I don't believe that it has much to do with the Koran being inherently more violent than the Holy Bible). Coptic Christians are routinely the victims of Islamic fundementalist violence in Egypt, which has only gotten worse since the Muslim Brotherhood took power. And it is significant enough that they're forced to abandon their homes or even flee the country. By conrast, Coptic Christians do not retaliate by blowing up mosques. And they're a large enough group that they could cause trouble if they were so inclined. It's that sort of contrast that you can't ignore or chalk up to vague "geopolitical issues" or just say people of other religions "do it too."

I don't know what one does about it. This sort of religious violence took place in Europe 300 years ago, but eventually people got over it. Hopefully the same thing happens in places like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Egypt.

ADDENDUM: If you want a comparison that doesn't involve a particular religion, you can contrast the barbarity of Mexican drug cartels with drug gang violence in the US. Both may be problem enough that it merits discussion. However, drug prohibition exists in both countries, yet the level of savagery that is associated with drug (or alcohol prohibition in the 1920s) in the US is nowhere near what it is in Mexico. Yes, it inherently has something to do with the effects of prohibition, but you have to conclude it has something to do with things that are unique to Mexico.

Just so you don't think I'm picking on "brown" people, there's a similar distinction between violence by the mafia in Italy and by the mafia in the US. There was a time in Italy (how extensive it is now, I don't know) where anti-Mafia politicians, judges and prosecutors in Italy were routinely targeted for violence by the mafia. While the US wasn't completely immune from it, former US mob prosecutors will tell you that they were specifically off-limits by the US mafia.

Edited by Daniel, 10 October 2012 - 10:38 AM.

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#14 devilsadvoc8

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:58 AM

If there is another large spread conflict (world war) or the use of nuclear weapons in the future, I am fairly confident that a belief in a sky faerie (no matter the flavor) will be the underlying cause.
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#15 Daniel

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:05 PM

If there is another large spread conflict (world war) or the use of nuclear weapons in the future, I am fairly confident that a belief in a sky faerie (no matter the flavor) will be the underlying cause.


You're probably right about nuclear war (could involve China though). "Large spreadh conflict (world war)" is a little vague, so I can't comment on that.

Remember though, the last world war (WWII not "World War IV" as some neocons say we're in now) had nothing to do with the flying spaghetti monster. Also, the closest the world actually came to a nuclear war also had nothing to do with relgion. So that part of the equation is not the end all be all.
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#16 mouse

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:55 PM

I agree with your issues with Islamic theocracies in the middle east, but I disagree with the motivation of the post. I would argue that Christian fundamentalists move us closer (not close, closer) to those fundamentalists. We should be holding ourselves to a higher standard as a nation, and more and more we simply celebrate that we're better than someone else. Thank god we don't kill women for seeking equal rights and that our government doesn't take away our rights to the ridiculous degree that China's or Russia's do, but we should be trying to be exceptional, and being better than Russia, China, and the Middle East is far from exceptional.
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#17 devilsfan26

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:24 AM

Yeah but this is US politics we are talking about, where you don't have to be good, you just have to be less worse than the other guy and people will worship you.
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#18 ATLL765

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:12 PM

Yes, I am saying that this is something that is LARGELY or maybe even OVERWHELMINGLY, but not entirely, unique to terrorists and fundamentalists of the Islamic persuasion. To the extent that any of this stuff happens in any other part of the world, it's usually a lone nut or an isolated phenemon. The fact that you don't really fear for your physical well-being from the religious right in this country, but you would if you lived in Pakistan, makes the point so obvious.

No Catholics rioted in the street or killed people over Piss Christ. People who convert from ANY other religion in the world (even Scientology) do not face death sentences. If you heard that a suicide bomb went off in a crowded market place you would make an assumption about who the perpetrator was, and 99 percent of the time you'd be correct.

Without taking any sense of proporionality into consideration, you just put your head in the sand. Not only is it intellectually dishonest, it doesn't do very much for the groups that are overwhelmingly the victims of these atrocities.


Lets not think about the Crusades then or the Spanish Inquisition. People do things like this when they are indoctrinated to believe that a single text can be infallible, or that anyone or anything is infallible. If there can be no room for doubt, there's no room for thought at all.
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#19 Daniel

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:29 PM

Lets not think about the Crusades then or the Spanish Inquisition. People do things like this when they are indoctrinated to believe that a single text can be infallible, or that anyone or anything is infallible. If there can be no room for doubt, there's no room for thought at all.


The Crusades and Spanish Inquisition were more than 500 years ago. I'm talking about the world that we live in now. At best, they could be evidence that what is going on the Muslim world will eventually pass, and that they're just a few centuries behind.
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#20 Daniel

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:35 PM

I agree with your issues with Islamic theocracies in the middle east, but I disagree with the motivation of the post. I would argue that Christian fundamentalists move us closer (not close, closer) to those fundamentalists. We should be holding ourselves to a higher standard as a nation, and more and more we simply celebrate that we're better than someone else. Thank god we don't kill women for seeking equal rights and that our government doesn't take away our rights to the ridiculous degree that China's or Russia's do, but we should be trying to be exceptional, and being better than Russia, China, and the Middle East is far from exceptional.


Being forever vigilant is generally a good thing. However, when you take it too far, you tend to insult people you feel are the threat. So it's not a matter of "being nice" to fundamentalist whackjobs in the US for fear of alienating them. It's just that it's insulting and intellectually dishonest to attack people for something that you know they have no interest in really accomplishing. So if I were a creationist that believed the world was 6000 years old, I would rightly be annoyed if you put me in the same league as fundamentalists who blow up churches or shoot fourteen year old girls in the head for advocating for women's education.
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