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Lockout 2012-2013 (Hockey's back!)


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Poll: Lockout 2012-2013 (Hockey's back!) (130 member(s) have cast votes)

When will we see hockey?

  1. Oct 12 (10 votes [7.69%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.69%

  2. Nov 12 (19 votes [14.62%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.62%

  3. Dec 12 (26 votes [20.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

  4. Jan 13 (33 votes [25.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.38%

  5. Feb 13 (1 votes [0.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.77%

  6. Mar 13 (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  7. Apr 13 (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  8. Oct 13 (14 votes [10.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.77%

  9. Never (27 votes [20.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.77%

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#1381 CarpathianForest

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:58 PM

I have no idea what you guys are talking about.
I'm stupid.
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#1382 Triumph

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:30 PM

It ain't getting to ten with this group, someone's opting out. There's just too many hardliners and ill will on both sides.


The players won't be opting out unless something drastically changes.

What leverage...you said yourself the DOI was a phony deadline and they could do it anytime. They must be having these sham votes to look good for court since they don't actually need to vote on DOI, but they're not going to win in court. Not after two months of players tweeting about disclaimer, Fehr's own cryptic comments about 'how other labor negotiations have gone' when asked about DOI/decert after the early December blowup, and the fact they're DOI'ing right at the deadline. Yeah that's real genuine and not a negotiating tactic lol...especially when it's done a few days right after it isn't done.


lol. dude. you don't seem to get it. the league is arguing that the union has to exist, which is preposterous. a union does not and should not have to exist, and why would management argue that a union has to exist? oh right - because it's advantageous for management for a union to exist.

you can't have it both ways. if it's a phony deadline, why are they doing it again? fun and games?

And of course Barnaby wanted to play. Matthew Barnaby was 31 when the lockout happened. He was a 12 minute/game player. He probably knew he didn't have much time left, and the lockout cost him a valuable year. However, the 1995 lockout almost certainly helped him, but he won't mention that. And that's how it goes. Old players get screwed, young players make money, players who have very brief careers lose.

Edited by Triumph, 03 January 2013 - 10:34 PM.

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#1383 NJDevs4978

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:46 PM

lol. dude. you don't seem to get it. the league is arguing that the union has to exist, which is preposterous. a union does not and should not have to exist, and why would management argue that a union has to exist? oh right - because it's advantageous for management for a union to exist.

you can't have it both ways. if it's a phony deadline, why are they doing it again? fun and games?


I'm not arguing the merits of the NHL's suit (filed before an actual DOI vote), all the suit did was make sure the hearing gets held in a management-friendly court. I'm just arguing the lack of merit of the PA being able to claim DOI isn't a negotiating tactic after they file. They have to prove it's not a tactic to actually have any teeth with filing, I suspect that's why they haven't actually done it yet...it's too obvious it is a tactic, especially at this point in the negotiations. Plus Fehr doesn't want to take himself out of the room.

Edited by NJDevs4978, 03 January 2013 - 10:58 PM.

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#1384 Triumph

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:00 PM

I'm not arguing the merits of the NHL's suit (filed before an actual DOI vote), all the suit did was make sure the hearing gets held in a management-friendly court. I'm just arguing the lack of merit of the PA being able to claim DOI isn't a negotiating tactic after they file. They have to prove it's not a tactic to actually have any teeth with filing, I suspect that's why they haven't actually done it yet. Plus Fehr doesn't want to take himself out of the room.


You don't seem to understand. If they disclaim, yes, Fehr is out of the room (unless the NHL says he can be there, which it was said today that they will not). However, the union is no longer a union, and no longer obligated to negotiate as such - they can become a trade association and sue the NHL for antitrust damages. You're putting the cart before the horse here, they don't have to prove anything to do it. They might have to prove it in court sometime, but that's a ways down the road.
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#1385 NJDevs4978

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:03 PM

http://sports.ca.msn...ution-for-nhlpa

That's just one story I found out about DOI:


First of all it, the disclaimer process is not necessarily automatic. A union doesn’t get to say “I divorce you” three times and then walk away. There is still a “good faith” test that could — and likely would — be demanded by the NHL.


The action can also be stopped by the National Labour Relations Board (NLRB) if it believes the union does not have a sincere desire to give up representation.


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"The Devils have high standards, that's the difference. We have a standard to live up to every year, and a couple of teams in our area don't have the standards we do." - Pat Burns

The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#1386 NJDevs4978

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:28 PM

Oy vey, here come the threats:

http://www.winnipegf...-185620012.html

A veteran member of the NHL’s board of governors says commissioner Gary Bettman is prepared to cancel the season on Thursday if a deal has not been reached or appears to be imminent.

The chill that has settled on NHL labour negotiations is all part of a Don Fehr plan to push commissioner Bettman into a corner for one last squeeze and there could be unfortunate circumstances for hockey fans, said the governor who requested anonymity.
...
The governor said owners and league personnel believe Fehr is trying to blow up the process and is no longer interested in making a deal.
They say Bettman is prepared for such an eventuality and will be supported should he elect to cancel the season on Thursday if no deal is done. Bettman will then take off what is currently on the table.
...
There will also be the messiness of lawsuits, a dissolved union and complete uncertainty for both sides to deal. Some owners, said the governor we spoke with, welcome such an opportunity if the current deal cannot be closed.


JUST GET A DEAL DONE ALREADY! :argh: It would be criminal if they don't at this point.

Edited by NJDevs4978, 03 January 2013 - 11:28 PM.

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"The Devils have high standards, that's the difference. We have a standard to live up to every year, and a couple of teams in our area don't have the standards we do." - Pat Burns

The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#1387 Zubie#8

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:31 PM

Oy vey, here come the threats:

http://www.winnipegf...-185620012.html



JUST GET A DEAL DONE ALREADY! :argh: It would be criminal if they don't at this point.

This entire process is one big joke. Its an embarrassment.
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#1388 Triumph

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:51 PM

League loves leaking to the Winnipeg Free Press - wouldn't've bet on that before this process started. The deadline is and always has been fake.
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#1389 thefiestygoat

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:13 AM

If it's a 10 year CBA, Bettman will be 70 during the next negotiation, and Fehr will be 74. I wouldn't be surprised if Fehr stepped down in 1-2 years anyway, so long as he had a worthy successor picked out. Bettman's already been rumored to be in ill health, I doubt he'll make it to the next CBA as commissioner either.

And yes 4978, I'm sure that the league knows nothing about leverage and is still continuing to negotiate in good faith. PS, Dreger reported that the union gave Fehr full authority to disclaim last night and he didn't do it.

Well I guess there is some good news for hockey fans today. I can't feel sorry for a rich guy that pulls sh!t like this to help out rich owners while people that work for teams, arenas, parking lots, etc. get screwed.
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#1390 Zubie#8

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:27 AM

Well I guess there is some good news for hockey fans today. I can't feel sorry for a rich guy that pulls sh!t like this to help out rich owners while people that work for teams, arenas, parking lots, etc. get screwed.

Nobody should feel good about an individual being ill joke or not. I found that distasteful.

Edited by Zubie#8, 04 January 2013 - 01:28 AM.

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#1391 thefiestygoat

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:28 AM

Nobody should feel good about an individual being ill joke or not. I found that distasteful.

He's no better than all of these corporate bigwigs that make a ton of money to fvck over a lot of people. Imagine how many people are out of jobs or hurt because of his antics - those people have health and real life problems too. I'll feel for them, fvck being politically correct.

Trust me I know what it's like to deal with serious health issues. I doubt Bettman has anything that's truly that bad if he is still "working" and I'm sure he has enough money to get a lot better care than most of the people in this nation. I doubt he has to worry about going bankrupt because of medical bills.

fvck distasteful, I'm pissed.
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#1392 mouse

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:07 AM

Nobody should feel good about an individual being ill joke or not. I found that distasteful.


This may be wrong of me, so sorry. I would love for their to be no illness or suffering in the world, but since that's not happening, I would rather certain people suffer, and Gary Bettman is one of them. If a certain number of people are going to be sick every year, I'm happy Bettman's one of them rather than one of the many decent human beings on the planet. Fvck him.

Edited by mouse, 04 January 2013 - 09:07 AM.

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#1393 Daniel

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:35 AM

This may be wrong of me, so sorry. I would love for their to be no illness or suffering in the world, but since that's not happening, I would rather certain people suffer, and Gary Bettman is one of them. If a certain number of people are going to be sick every year, I'm happy Bettman's one of them rather than one of the many decent human beings on the planet. Fvck him.


Well why not wish bad health on the players and Fehr? All of these players are instantly catapulted into the one percent whether they play another game after signing their contracts or if they performed badly and got fired. And most, with some decent financial planning, will be set for life financially once their careers are over. In the meantime, those players don't give a crap about the fans. Just ask Zach Parise, Brad Richards, Ilya Kovalchuk, or any other player who said they liked where they were and "LOVED" the fans there, but then bolted for greener pastures. In the meantime, wealthy as they are, ownership takes a risk of loss when it spends a ton of money buying and financing player salaries.

Don't get me wrong, I don't fault the players for trying to get as much of the pie as possible. But at the same time I don't fault the owners. (Moreover, Bettman works at the owners' behest, so personalizing your frustrations with ownership on Bettman is a little unfair to him). Sure, I miss hockey. But at the same time, it's not vital for my survival, and it's not like I'm being charged anything. I can't predict how into the sport I will be after the lockout ends. Whatever my level of interest is, won't have anything to do with any ill-will towards either side, in the same way that SAG strike wouldn't stop me from watching a good television show or good movie.


It's always the other guy that's greedy.

Edited by Daniel, 04 January 2013 - 09:38 AM.

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#1394 SterioDesign

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:00 AM

Letang is joining Kovy's team in the KHL waiting for the lockout to end

Edited by SterioDesign, 04 January 2013 - 10:22 AM.

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#1395 newarkdev01

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:13 AM

Letang is joining Kovy's team in the NHL waiting for the lockout to end

Did you mean KHL on this one?
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#1396 newarkdev01

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:18 AM

Well why not wish bad health on the players and Fehr? All of these players are instantly catapulted into the one percent whether they play another game after signing their contracts or if they performed badly and got fired. And most, with some decent financial planning, will be set for life financially once their careers are over. In the meantime, those players don't give a crap about the fans. Just ask Zach Parise, Brad Richards, Ilya Kovalchuk, or any other player who said they liked where they were and "LOVED" the fans there, but then bolted for greener pastures. In the meantime, wealthy as they are, ownership takes a risk of loss when it spends a ton of money buying and financing player salaries.

Don't get me wrong, I don't fault the players for trying to get as much of the pie as possible. But at the same time I don't fault the owners. (Moreover, Bettman works at the owners' behest, so personalizing your frustrations with ownership on Bettman is a little unfair to him). Sure, I miss hockey. But at the same time, it's not vital for my survival, and it's not like I'm being charged anything. I can't predict how into the sport I will be after the lockout ends. Whatever my level of interest is, won't have anything to do with any ill-will towards either side, in the same way that SAG strike wouldn't stop me from watching a good television show or good movie.


It's always the other guy that's greedy.


Honestly the last line is the most truthful. Neither party is wrong is trying to cut the best deal possible for themselves. As a player, you have a finite career to make a payday and I can't fault them for trying to maximize it. As an owner you have a ligitimate chance to go bankrupt running a franchise and attempting to win at all costs. I can't fault someone who is putting their own wealth and financial security at risk for trying to get the best deal possible. Admittedly, as an owner of a small business I always find empathy for an owner even if them seem umsympathetic.

As a fan I'm frustrated and want to watch the game I love but having gone through tough negotiations in business I fully understand how quickly it stops becoming about the deal and more about perceived greivances and mistrust that you have in the other party. I sincerely hope cooler heads prevail and they remeber a cancelled season over a 5 million difference is chump change long term.

Edited by newarkdev01, 04 January 2013 - 10:21 AM.

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#1397 SterioDesign

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:22 AM

Did you mean KHL on this one?


absolutely yes KHL lol
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#1398 SterioDesign

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:29 AM

Well why not wish bad health on the players and Fehr? All of these players are instantly catapulted into the one percent whether they play another game after signing their contracts or if they performed badly and got fired. And most, with some decent financial planning, will be set for life financially once their careers are over. In the meantime, those players don't give a crap about the fans. Just ask Zach Parise, Brad Richards, Ilya Kovalchuk, or any other player who said they liked where they were and "LOVED" the fans there, but then bolted for greener pastures. In the meantime, wealthy as they are, ownership takes a risk of loss when it spends a ton of money buying and financing player salaries.

Don't get me wrong, I don't fault the players for trying to get as much of the pie as possible. But at the same time I don't fault the owners. (Moreover, Bettman works at the owners' behest, so personalizing your frustrations with ownership on Bettman is a little unfair to him). Sure, I miss hockey. But at the same time, it's not vital for my survival, and it's not like I'm being charged anything. I can't predict how into the sport I will be after the lockout ends. Whatever my level of interest is, won't have anything to do with any ill-will towards either side, in the same way that SAG strike wouldn't stop me from watching a good television show or good movie.


It's always the other guy that's greedy.


The thing with Bettman and the owners is that in 2004 they did this and got EVERYTHING they wanted and all the players got was that extra 7% of 50/50. The system the NHL built was supposed to bring stability and bla bla bla bla.

So that CBA ends and what do you know... their plan didnt work so now they want MORE and take money to cover their mistakes out of the players pockets. ON TOP OF THAT they want to put more restrictions on contracts and taking even more from the players. And to get what THEY want they lock out the players for leverage. The players still wanted to play even during negotiations. I mean seriously this is why all we hear from the players is stuff like "whats in it for us and what are you guys giving?" cause at some point the owners we're not handing anything. Players had to cut their HRR share % PLUS they'd get less freedom with their contracts and everything, while the owners we're not making any sacrifices at all. Totally unfair for the players.

The owners are doing this 100% and if the NHLPA let them win this one too like in 2004 without a fight, well they are going to do this every single time they have to renew the CBA.

Edited by SterioDesign, 04 January 2013 - 10:30 AM.

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#1399 NJDevs4978

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:35 AM

League loves leaking to the Winnipeg Free Press - wouldn't've bet on that before this process started. The deadline is and always has been fake.


I still fail to see the advantage of a 'fake' drop deadline. If it gets proven to be fake then there'll never be any incentive for the PA to negotiate against a deadline again. The only time the owners can provide any real pressure is the 'first' drop dead date, so it better be the last.

Either way, it's a disgusting game of chicken. I hope Bettman does tell them to **** themselves on the 10th if they honestly want to play Russian Roulette.
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"The Devils have high standards, that's the difference. We have a standard to live up to every year, and a couple of teams in our area don't have the standards we do." - Pat Burns

The New Jersey Devils win Stanley Cups everywhere:
-NHL record for most road wins in the playoffs - 10-1 in '95 and 10-2 in '00
-NHL record for most home wins in the playoffs - 12-1 in '03

#1400 Daniel

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:43 AM

The thing with Bettman and the owners is that in 2004 they did this and got EVERYTHING they wanted and all the players got was that extra 7% of 50/50. The system the NHL built was supposed to bring stability and bla bla bla bla.

So that CBA ends and what do you know... their plan didnt work so now they want MORE and take money to cover their mistakes out of the players pockets. ON TOP OF THAT they want to put more restrictions on contracts and taking even more from the players. And to get what THEY want they lock out the players for leverage. The players still wanted to play even during negotiations. I mean seriously this is why all we hear from the players is stuff like "whats in it for us and what are you guys giving?" cause at some point the owners we're not handing anything. Players had to cut their HRR share % PLUS they'd get less freedom with their contracts and everything, while the owners we're not making any sacrifices at all. Totally unfair for the players.

The owners are doing this 100% and if the NHLPA let them win this one too like in 2004 without a fight, well they are going to do this every single time they have to renew the CBA.


However you want to characterize how favorable the last CBA was for the owners, the fact remains that it was the LAST CBA that's no longer in effect. The players understood that the last CBA had an expiration date when they signed it and that the owners were free to get an even better deal for themselves with the next one. That's the way contracts work.
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