Larsson

[dmann422]

Go back and read that draft thread. It exploded when Larsson fell to us. To claim now that you knew or Lou should have known to pick anyone else is utter silliness and an outright lie.

Even comparing Larsson to Brodin and Hamilton is unfair as both of them are playing with Norris candidates as partners (that is, when Hamilton isn't scratched)

Larsson was and still is the right pick. He has plenty of time left to prove it.

[CarpathianForest]

I don't fault Lou for making the pick at 4. In 2011 we had Parise, Kovalchuk, Clarkson, a younger Marty and a younger Moose. The D while okay had been on a downward slide since 2008. Lou picked what he thought we needed and Larsson was ranked very highly.

[Daniel]

Go back and read that draft thread. It exploded when Larsson fell to us. To claim now that you knew or Lou should have known to pick anyone else is utter silliness and an outright lie.

Even comparing Larsson to Brodin and Hamilton is unfair as both of them are playing with Norris candidates as partners (that is, when Hamilton isn't scratched)

Larsson was and still is the right pick. He has plenty of time left to prove it.

 

As I said, I do not fault Lou for the pick.  The same way I do not fault Ottawa for selecting Daigle. 

 

It's just disappointing that Larsson does not appear that he'll be as good as he was supposed to be. 

[Triumph]

Go back and read that draft thread. It exploded when Larsson fell to us. To claim now that you knew or Lou should have known to pick anyone else is utter silliness and an outright lie.

Even comparing Larsson to Brodin and Hamilton is unfair as both of them are playing with Norris candidates as partners (that is, when Hamilton isn't scratched)

Larsson was and still is the right pick. He has plenty of time left to prove it.

 

I never said he wasn't the right pick, I'm just saying those are two guys who look like they will definitely be better than Larsson.  The rest of the draft it's up for debate, and it's also up for debate whether Huberdeau will be better.

[Mike Brown]

Prior 4th picks

 

2010:  Ryan Johansen

2009:  Evander Kane

2008:  Alex Pietrangelo

2007:  Thomas Hickey

2006:  Nick Backstrom

2005:  Benoit Pouliot

2004:  Andrew Ladd

2003:  Nick Zherdev

2002:  Joni Pitkanen

2001:  Stephen Weiss

2000:  Rusty Klesla

1999:  Pavel Brindl

1998:  Bryan Allen

1997:  Ruberto Luongo

 

Finally, I can stop with what I'll consider a top star player, but the next three years are pug fugly until we get to Paul Kariya in 1993.

 

There's your history of the #4 pick.   Problem is 1) you guys have no patience 2) you overvalue what a #4 pick actually is and 3) you all sat around during a pointless season having fantasies about the guy, listening to stupid talking heads who said he was Nick Lidstrom 2.0.

 

This is the problem with drafting defensemen, if you get impatient, you end up wasting your pick and if the player actually is good, someone else reaps the benefits.

 

2010:  Ryan Johansen - still very young

2009:  Evander Kane - already very good

2008:  Alex Pietrangelo - elite d-man

2007:  Thomas Hickey - bust

2006:  Nick Backstrom - great center

2005:  Benoit Pouliot - decent player

2004:  Andrew Ladd - good player

2003:  Nick Zherdev - decent player

2002:  Joni Pitkanen - good player, but injury proned

2001:  Stephen Weiss - very good player

2000:  Rusty Klesla - decent player

1999:  Pavel Brindl - bust

1998:  Bryan Allen - decent player

1997:  Ruberto Luongo - HOF goalie

 

Basically, only 2 on that list were busts imo.  The others at least became solid players one way or another.

[2ELIAS6]

i dont think larsson is a bust.. especially being so young. kind of silly to be going on about this... its not like hes the only one making mistakes the entire D fvcking blows lately.

[squishyx]

He's 20.

[2ELIAS6]

He's 20.

yes i think we've established that.

[Daniel]

He's 20.

 

If there were some attribute(s) to his game that showed more upside, I wouldn't be as concerned. But  I don't see them, and nobody has pointed anything out, other than "outlet passes", which is vague and immeasurable enough that it's an attribute that people see if they want to see it. 

 

Like I said, "bust" was too strong a word on my part.  Disappointment is more appropriate.

[Pepperkorn]

I think everyone here should be happy winning the lottery didn't mean getting the 1st overall pick, because I believe that the entire scouting staff was ready to take Larsson if they had the 1st pick. Right now you can't make a great case for anyone the Devils should have picked instead of Larsson at the 4-spot. It's very early (just like it is too early to judge Larsson), but you could make the case that everyone from 5-20 should be worried about their top pick. That's how ridiculous it is to give up on Larsson at this point.

Totally agree.    But I do remember how everyone made the best of it all by taking a good look and Landeskog.  What started out as bucking the Devils up actually convinced me he was by far and away the Devils player - I think it's also what convinced the Avs to take him first.  Larsson was a clean calm Avs kind of guy Ladeskog was tougher and just more Devils by nature.

 

I think Larsson will come along though.  I dont know how to work with that type but that doesn't make it bad at all. 

[Pepperkorn]

If there were some attribute(s) to his game that showed more upside, I wouldn't be as concerned. But  I don't see them, and nobody has pointed anything out, other than "outlet passes", which is vague and immeasurable enough that it's an attribute that people see if they want to see it. 

 

Like I said, "bust" was too strong a word on my part.  Disappointment is more appropriate.

 

I'm just curious... how does one find outlet passes vague and immeasurable?  Seriously, not to wax all Triumph superior but I am dumbfounded by that comment. I feel like an a$$hole seriously sitting here thinking what's not to see - what could be more obvious?  It's not even like it's a group skill even, reliant on any other player.

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

 

1998: Bryan Allen - decent player

1997: Ruberto Luongo - HOF goalie

 

Really?!?!?!

 

Guy hasnt even won a Vezina.

 

You have to be an exceptionally good Golatender with the hardwear to show for it to get into the HOF.

[Daniel]

I'm just curious... how does one find outlet passes vague and immeasurable?  Seriously, not to wax all Triumph superior but I am dumbfounded by that comment. I feel like an a$$hole seriously sitting here thinking what's not to see - what could be more obvious?  It's not even like it's a group skill even, reliant on any other player.

 

It's vague because even the most borderline of NHL defensemen can make outlet passes often enough.  If it's a skill you're looking for to tell yourself that a defenseman is good, you'll be able to conclude that any defenseman you want is good.  I'm sure I could find just as many nice outlet passes from Peter Harold than you can from Larsson. 

 

Otherwise, he isn't particularly fast, he's not physical, he doesn't have a shot that's anything special, he's not the smoothest skater.  What's left?

[maxpower]

 

2010:  Ryan Johansen - still very young

2009:  Evander Kane - already very good

2008:  Alex Pietrangelo - elite d-man

2007:  Thomas Hickey - bust

2006:  Nick Backstrom - great center

2005:  Benoit Pouliot - decent player

2004:  Andrew Ladd - good player

2003:  Nick Zherdev - decent player

2002:  Joni Pitkanen - good player, but injury proned

2001:  Stephen Weiss - very good player

2000:  Rusty Klesla - decent player

1999:  Pavel Brindl - bust

1998:  Bryan Allen - decent player

1997:  Ruberto Luongo - HOF goalie

 

Basically, only 2 on that list were busts imo.  The others at least became solid players one way or another.

 

 

It's not that they're busts, it's that the list is hardly spinning off generational players right and left.   And Benoit Pouliot is junk,  Zherdev was a flake who had no longevity in the league, Ladd is on his 3rd organization and has had one big year... in a shortened season, Bryan Allen is a boring prototypical Devils defenseman, Weiss is (was) good but is maddingly overrated, etc.  It goes on like that.   The biggest hits at that position over 17-18 years were Luongo and Kariya.   Pietrangelo has a chance to be a star player and Backstrom is a great assist guy, who had a Scott Gomez 05-06 goal scoring year once.

 

Superstars are not falling out of the sky at that spot.   So a 20 year old Larsson has more than enough time and chance to hit the level of his slot.

[DJ Eco]

Really?!?!?!

 

Guy hasnt even won a Vezina.

 

You have to be an exceptionally good Golatender with the hardwear to show for it to get into the HOF.

 

I hope he was being sarcastic lol...

[njdevsftw]

He's 20. Someone ressurect this thread in 5 years.

[Triumph]

Luongo is an HOF level goaltender, sorry guys.  He's 4th all time in save percentage, he'll probably be top 10 in wins when it's over.  He hasn't won a Vezina by sheer chance - he had a better season than Brodeur two of the times Brodeur took the award.  

 

It's vague because even the most borderline of NHL defensemen can make outlet passes often enough.  If it's a skill you're looking for to tell yourself that a defenseman is good, you'll be able to conclude that any defenseman you want is good.  I'm sure I could find just as many nice outlet passes from Peter Harold than you can from Larsson. 

 

Otherwise, he isn't particularly fast, he's not physical, he doesn't have a shot that's anything special, he's not the smoothest skater.  What's left?

 

It's deeply ironic that I am the one that has to tell you this but:  Watch the games.  Outlet passing isn't a random skill that players either exhibit or don't - it's the ability to find the stick of your man as he's moving around the ice.  It's a difficult thing to do - a lot of defensemen never really master it.  Larsson came into the league and he was able to do it like a veteran - he makes his share of mistakes doing it still, but those will diminish in time.  This should be a skill that jumps out at you when watching hockey.  How it translates into performance is more difficult to pin down, but Larsson hasn't been a significant territorial drag despite his other limitations, so I suspect it's his passing skill that's kept him afloat.

 

As for Larsson's physicality, that will increase once his speed does.  He won't be a guy that's throwing huge hits left and right but that's of dubious value anyway.  He can definitely catch people unaware at the blueline from time to time.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Triumph

[Daniel]

Luongo is an HOF level goaltender, sorry guys.  He's 4th all time in save percentage, he'll probably be top 10 in wins when it's over.  He hasn't won a Vezina by sheer chance - he had a better season than Brodeur two of the times Brodeur took the award.  

 

 

It's deeply ironic that I am the one that has to tell you this but:  Watch the games.  Outlet passing isn't a random skill that players either exhibit or don't - it's the ability to find the stick of your man as he's moving around the ice.  It's a difficult thing to do - a lot of defensemen never really master it.  Larsson came into the league and he was able to do it like a veteran - he makes his share of mistakes doing it still, but those will diminish in time.  This should be a skill that jumps out at you when watching hockey.  How it translates into performance is more difficult to pin down, but Larsson hasn't been a significant territorial drag despite his other limitations, so I suspect it's his passing skill that's kept him afloat.

 

As for Larsson's physicality, that will increase once his speed does.  He won't be a guy that's throwing huge hits left and right but that's of dubious value anyway.  He can definitely catch people unaware at the blueline from time to time.

 

Larsson's outlet passing is actually something I do pay attention to, since it's touted as one of his main attributes and I'm interested in his progress.  I just don't see it adding up to anything concrete on the ice, and it doesn't seem all that impressive when I see Peter Harrold basically being able to do the same thing.  I don't see it as a "random skill". ( It's been a long time, but I guess you could say Daneyko wasn't particularly good at it.)  Rather, it's common enough that in order for it to be something that makes a defenseman truly special, which is what we were all plausibly hoping Larsson could be, the outlet passing out to stand out. 

 

Now, if it's true that most young defensemen in the NHL fall all over themselves when making the outlet passes, then I'm willing to accept that there's more to the ordinariness of Larsson's outlet passing at this stage of his career. 

[ATLL765]

Larsson's outlet passing is actually something I do pay attention to, since it's touted as one of his main attributes and I'm interested in his progress.  I just don't see it adding up to anything concrete on the ice, and it doesn't seem all that impressive when I see Peter Harrold basically being able to do the same thing.  I don't see it as a "random skill". ( It's been a long time, but I guess you could say Daneyko wasn't particularly good at it.)  Rather, it's common enough that in order for it to be something that makes a defenseman truly special, which is what we were all plausibly hoping Larsson could be, the outlet passing out to stand out. 

 

Now, if it's true that most young defensemen in the NHL fall all over themselves when making the outlet passes, then I'm willing to accept that there's more to the ordinariness of Larsson's outlet passing at this stage of his career. 

Volch and Sal can't make a clean outlet pass to save their lives. Larsson is pretty good at it already.

[SterioDesign]

It's vague because even the most borderline of NHL defensemen can make outlet passes often enough.  If it's a skill you're looking for to tell yourself that a defenseman is good, you'll be able to conclude that any defenseman you want is good.  I'm sure I could find just as many nice outlet passes from Peter Harold than you can from Larsson. 

 

Otherwise, he isn't particularly fast, he's not physical, he doesn't have a shot that's anything special, he's not the smoothest skater.  What's left?

 

wtv you said in this discussion is precisely what i'm thinking... All we can hope from Larsson is that he become crazy smart. It will be his head, and the coaches are not helping his head right now. He'll have to be confident.

 

Look at all great dmen around the league and what their strength are... they had that skills all along it was only a matter of adjusting that strength to the big league.

 

for example... last year Norris winner Subban... you think he was slow, not aggressive and had an average shot in juniors or in his first years in the NHL ? no. it was already all there he just had to work on his work ethic and be A LOT smarter than he was.

 

edit : now cause i know this will happen cause it's happening all the time... don't argue with me here focusing strictly on one little thing i said about Subban going on and on about it ignoring the whole point. Subban was simply an example. 

Edited October 16, 2013 by SterioDesign

[ATLL765]

wtv you said in this discussion is precisely what i'm thinking... All we can hope from Larsson is that he become crazy smart. It will be his head, and the coaches are not helping his head right now. He'll have to be confident.

 

Look at all great dmen around the league and what their strength are... they had that skills all along it was only a matter of adjusting that strength to the big league.

 

for example... last year Norris winner Subban... you think he was slow, not aggressive and had an average shot in juniors or in his first years in the NHL ? no. it was already all there he just had to work on his work ethic and be A LOT smarter than he was.

 

edit : now cause i know this will happen cause it's happening all the time... don't argue with me here focusing strictly on one little thing i said about Subban going on and on about it ignoring the whole point. Subban was simply an example. 

Right, but you can't use anecdotal evidence to prove something then say not to call you out on it.

[Triumph]

Subban might be the best defenseman in the league.  That's why using him as an example is terrible.  It'd be like in 1984 being like 'Well, Ray Bourque blah blah blah'.  I don't think Larsson will reach this level, but Subban is playing at an HOF-level.

[SterioDesign]

Subban might be the best defenseman in the league.  That's why using him as an example is terrible.  It'd be like in 1984 being like 'Well, Ray Bourque blah blah blah'.  I don't think Larsson will reach this level, but Subban is playing at an HOF-level.

 

well well... just as i made a point pretty clear not to focus on what i said about that one guy and just take the general meaning of what i said... guess who comes out and do exactly what i said not to do... *clap clap*

Edited October 16, 2013 by SterioDesign

[ATLL765]

well well... just as i made a point pretty clear not to focus on what i said about that one guy and just take the general meaning of what i said... guess who comes out and do exactly what i said not to do... *clap clap*

Look, you basically invited it by using that example. You can't provide the most lopsided example ever by using someone who has been playing fantastically and then say well, he's not better than the best, so he blows.

[Devil Dan 56]

well well... just as i made a point pretty clear not to focus on what i said about that one guy and just take the general meaning of what i said... guess who comes out and do exactly what i said not to do... *clap clap*

 

I don't understand why you can use players as examples, but no one is allowed to point out that those examples make no damn sense.

 

Larsson has great vision, passing, and an ability to remain calm on the ice. He can log big minutes. You seem to not believe that a stable defenseman is a good thing if he isn't filling a certain collection of traits that you consider elite.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Devil Dan 56