dmann422 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 because in a business you always try to capitalize on your best opportunities and try to limit your loss. Thats a smart business model. Snip and by the way i never said we should tank and blow up the team. All im saying is that i dont want to give up ANY picks or prospects for a playoffs run this year. apologies, this thread is going in several directions so it's hard to keep track of who's saying what. I totally agree to hang into picks and prospects, but I'm equally against pawning off guys who can help us make the playoffs.I'm not sure your business analogy is quite apples to apples, seeing as how the nhl is perfectly cyclical whereas most industries are much more volatile and unpredictable, but I get the point. In the end we should try to find a balance between trying to win and making sure we are in a good position moving forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgb6397 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Kinkaid is not an alternate plan. Lou trading for Schneider tells you everything, as far as how Lou feels about Kinkaid and Wedge. He didn't think either one was capable of being a 50+ starting goalie. Lou NEVER gives up the 9th-overall pick in the draft otherwise. Even if Schneider leaves or is traded, I don't think Kinkaid and/or Wedge get much of a shot here. I think what some people are forgetting is that it IS possible to get players that can help you in the second round, third round, etc. Elias was a 2nd-rounder. It's not all first round or bust. Are you kidding? Kinkaid has a good chance of coming up as soon as Marty's gone. If Schneider walks, that basically seals his fate as the next Jersey tender, unless Lou pulls another blockbuster move, and you said it yourself, that isn't likely at all. Also, yeah, Lou might not have thought very highly of Kinkaid in the summer, but look at the season he's putting together now. Arguably the best goalie in the AHL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldply123 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 lol sure it does. glad to see you make this point after Jagr skated circles around Colorado in the 3rd period last night. I stand by it moving forward. He looked terrible for a good five or six game stretch on his skates. Just a concern I have pal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lateralous Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) apologies, this thread is going in several directions so it's hard to keep track of who's saying what. I totally agree to hang into picks and prospects, but I'm equally against pawning off guys who can help us make the playoffs. I'm not sure your business analogy is quite apples to apples, seeing as how the nhl is perfectly cyclical whereas most industries are much more volatile and unpredictable, but I get the point. In the end we should try to find a balance between trying to win and making sure we are in a good position moving forward. The only move I would like to see is trading Zidlicky if Lou can get a 1st round pick from someone like Anaheim that needs a puck mover. We've had a logjam on defense for 2 years and while he's not the first guy I would want to move, he easily has the most value of any of our expendable veteran defenseman. I think you can make that move without throwing up the white flag on this season because you have Larsson who needs a spot on the NHL roster. At the point Jagr gets moved we've completely given up on 2014 and that's not Lou's M.O.as we all know. Edited February 4, 2014 by Lateralous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) Are you kidding? Kinkaid has a good chance of coming up as soon as Marty's gone. If Schneider walks, that basically seals his fate as the next Jersey tender, unless Lou pulls another blockbuster move, and you said it yourself, that isn't likely at all. Also, yeah, Lou might not have thought very highly of Kinkaid in the summer, but look at the season he's putting together now. Arguably the best goalie in the AHL What?! Kinkaid is now down to a .912 save%, and that's in the AHL (he was up to .927 at one point, which shows you that he's fallen off significantly). Take a look at other goalies in the A right now...Kinkaid's overall numbers are nothing special (not to mention he's already 24 years old): http://theahl.com/stats/statdisplay.php?type=top_goalies&subType=0&season_id=43&league_id=4&division_id=-1&confId=0 Edited February 4, 2014 by Colorado Rockies 1976 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 The only move I would like to see is trading Zidlicky if Lou can get a 1st round pick from someone like Anaheim that needs a puck mover. We've had a logjam on defense for 2 years and while he's not the first guy I would want to move, he easily has the most value of any of our expendable veteran defenseman. I think you can make that move without throwing up the white flag on this season because you have Larsson who needs a spot on the NHL roster. At the point Jagr gets moved we've completely given up on 2014 and that's not Lou's M.O.as we all know. Anaheim has Cam Fowler, who's probably better at it than Zidlicky. I would guess that they're more interested in someone with "grit", who generally doesnt fetch something more than a third round pick in return. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lateralous Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Are you kidding? Kinkaid has a good chance of coming up as soon as Marty's gone. If Schneider walks, that basically seals his fate as the next Jersey tender, unless Lou pulls another blockbuster move, and you said it yourself, that isn't likely at all. Also, yeah, Lou might not have thought very highly of Kinkaid in the summer, but look at the season he's putting together now. Arguably the best goalie in the AHL We're talking about the same GM who never gave Ari Ahonen a chance even as a backup despite doing pretty well in the AHL for several years? There's always decent goalies, not necessarily at Schneiders level, available for relatively cheap on both the free agent and trade markets, so I'm not sure it's a big concern. Besides, we'll just see Lou throw a temporary patch on the goaltending situation if Cory leaves just like he's done at every other position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lateralous Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) Anaheim has Cam Fowler, who's probably better at it than Zidlicky. I would guess that they're more interested in someone with "grit", who generally doesnt fetch something more than a third round pick in return. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I swear I heard them say on the Ducks broadcast the other night that they would love to add a right handed puck moving defenseman (presumably 2nd pairing because of Fowler). Zidlicky fits that description perfectly. Regardless, I think he's the type of guy a lot of teams would like to add at the deadline and he's having a pretty good season. Edited February 4, 2014 by Lateralous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 We're talking about the same GM who never gave Ari Ahonen a chance even as a backup despite doing pretty well in the AHL for several years? There's always decent goalies, not necessarily at Schneiders level, available for relatively cheap on both the free agent and trade markets, so I'm not sure it's a big concern. Besides, we'll just see Lou throw a temporary patch on the goaltending situation if Cory leaves just like he's done at every other position. Ahonen wasn't anything special in the AHL. Notice how no one traded for him...I don't even ever remember hearing his name in rumors...not even as a throw-in. There's organizations always looking for good young goalies. Ahonen played on some god-awful Rats teams, no doubt, but if someone thought he had something, they would've dealt for him...with Brodeur firmly entrenched as the #1 back then, a team probably wouldn't have had to give up that much to get him. I remember when Brodeur got hurt in 2005-06 (his knee), and Clemmy got a brief string of starts near the start of the season. Ahonen got called up to back up (he never appeared in a game). I saw him during warmups once, and he looked awful. It may not mean much, but I remember being surprised at how bad he looked. At any rate, I don't think the league or Lou somehow missed out on magic with him. He just was a draft pick that didn't work out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil Dan 56 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 because in a business you always try to capitalize on your best opportunities and try to limit your loss. Thats a smart business model. On one hand you have winning the cup... which is HIGHLY unlikely. What if we do win the cup? Well great we have another cup of course its awesome but again, nothing would have changed and we'd have a worst team next season. Mayyybe have more interest from a few UFAs maybe? But if we don't win, we'd have a lesser "stock" team next season and On the other hand, NOT trading away young players, prospects or picks and trying to get a few. That's giving you options and more chances of getting players that could help. In this options at least the repercussions could help through the years. Always better in this situation to gamble and play safe on stuff you can control (getting picks or prospects to try to fill future holes eventhough its nothing sure is still a step in the right direction) rather than gambling giving some away hoping you can make it through 4 rounds of playoffs. and by the way i never said we should tank and blow up the team. All im saying is that i dont want to give up ANY picks or prospects for a playoffs run this year. I pretty much agree totally with your "lets not sell the farm" theory right now. The team has some good pieces going forward, and I'd like to hold on to most of them. But that part in bold above... I mean, the cup is the whole point!!! If they win a cup, it was worth it!! But again, back to your main point... I like a lot of the young pieces and I'd prefer to not part with them. Especially Gelinas, Merrill, Boucher, Matteau, etc. Those are guys who aren't too far off from being regular contributes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brown Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Yeah but we we're never this poor up front and lacking scoring. We need help NOW and there's NONE coming, it's not overreaction. If anything i think you're mentality in simply denial and to ignore the upcoming problems. It's absolutely fair to be worried about our current lack of scoring + if you're looking at our prospects, nothing will help in the future. So if we want scoring we'll have to overpay for someone which is never good. I'm not in denial about anything. I'm being 100% realistic with everything I post. We're like every other team in the league. We're one or two players away from being a legit contender. And we can still overpay for a player, and still be in good shape. We have the pieces where we can take a calculated risk, and still be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecoffeecake Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Is that really your best response to that question? Now isn't the time to be discussing this. Next year is the time to discuss this. He hates it here as far as I can tell, and big time teams will throw big time money at him that we wont. "What makes you think he will stay" is a valid question to ask, because nothing is telling you he will. He didn't want to come here. He's having a rough go as it is. Give me one good reason why you're staying if you're Cory Schneider. The thesis of my argument is "trade Cory Schneider now", what does next year have to do with anything? I'm hoping he's wearing a Blues jersey this time next year, and there's nothing Cory related to discuss. Kinkaid has a .912 in Albany, and I believe it was higher at one point. To think it would drop at the NHL is silly. Shots are shots, and he may be playing against a lower tier of forwards, but he's also playing behind a minor league defense. And if you think he doesn't have what it takes to compete in the NHL, you better hope Schneider gets moved before he walks. Do you want to see him sign somewhere else, and then have to give up a big prospect for another goaltender? Trade him, bring in a capable goalie, bring in a few prospects. Done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brown Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 He hates it here as far as I can tell, and big time teams will throw big time money at him that we wont. "What makes you think he will stay" is a valid question to ask, because nothing is telling you he will. He didn't want to come here. He's having a rough go as it is. Give me one good reason why you're staying if you're Cory Schneider. The thesis of my argument is "trade Cory Schneider now", what does next year have to do with anything? I'm hoping he's wearing a Blues jersey this time next year, and there's nothing Cory related to discuss. Kinkaid has a .912 in Albany, and I believe it was higher at one point. To think it would drop at the NHL is silly. Shots are shots, and he may be playing against a lower tier of forwards, but he's also playing behind a minor league defense. And if you think he doesn't have what it takes to compete in the NHL, you better hope Schneider gets moved before he walks. Do you want to see him sign somewhere else, and then have to give up a big prospect for another goaltender? Trade him, bring in a capable goalie, bring in a few prospects. Done. You have no idea what you're talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecoffeecake Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 You have no idea what you're talking about. I like how you supported that with evidence and data, or even a contrary opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brown Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I like how you supported that with evidence and data, or even a contrary opinion. Well you provided nothing. So why should I provide anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecoffeecake Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Well you provided nothing. So why should I provide anything? Solid bickering session. I don't want to have to say I told you so when Cory walks, because I'll be as pissed as anyone. How has banking on our big names resigning worked over the past decade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Solid bickering session. I don't want to have to say I told you so when Cory walks, because I'll be as pissed as anyone. How has banking on our big names resigning worked over the past decade? If he signs a long term deal will you admit you don't know what you're talking about? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil Dan 56 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 He hates it here as far as I can tell, and big time teams will throw big time money at him that we wont. "What makes you think he will stay" is a valid question to ask, because nothing is telling you he will. He didn't want to come here. He's having a rough go as it is. Give me one good reason why you're staying if you're Cory Schneider. The thesis of my argument is "trade Cory Schneider now", what does next year have to do with anything? I'm hoping he's wearing a Blues jersey this time next year, and there's nothing Cory related to discuss. Kinkaid has a .912 in Albany, and I believe it was higher at one point. To think it would drop at the NHL is silly. Shots are shots, and he may be playing against a lower tier of forwards, but he's also playing behind a minor league defense. And if you think he doesn't have what it takes to compete in the NHL, you better hope Schneider gets moved before he walks. Do you want to see him sign somewhere else, and then have to give up a big prospect for another goaltender? Trade him, bring in a capable goalie, bring in a few prospects. Done. I don't understand the assumption that Cory's leaving. He was frustrated in Vancouver, too, and he was sad to leave. He's the number one guy here now, and he will be next year. The Devils have the money and years to give him a better contract than almost any other team, plus the guaranteed starting job. Trading him now (17 months before his contract is even up) is one of the biggest knee jerk panic moves a GM could ever make. Meanwhile, Keith Kinkaid's save percentage has plummeted from .927 to .912 in a matter of months. I'm not sure how that makes you think he'll be NHL ready in October. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecoffeecake Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 If he signs a long term deal will you admit you don't know what you're talking about? I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong if I am. Obviously I see there being a slim chance of him doing so, but I feel as if it's an unnecessary gamble. No goaltender is irreplaceable. Risking it with skaters, I have less of a problem with. Why does anyone care if Cory Schneider or some other capable goaltender is stopping pucks for us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecoffeecake Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) I don't understand the assumption that Cory's leaving. He was frustrated in Vancouver, too, and he was sad to leave. He's the number one guy here now, and he will be next year. The Devils have the money and years to give him a better contract than almost any other team, plus the guaranteed starting job. Trading him now (17 months before his contract is even up) is one of the biggest knee jerk panic moves a GM could ever make. Meanwhile, Keith Kinkaid's save percentage has plummeted from .927 to .912 in a matter of months. I'm not sure how that makes you think he'll be NHL ready in October. Did I ever say he was NHL ready? I don't think so, I may have. I would want a goaltender included in a Cory Schneider trade. It's not knee-jerk to trade him while he still has some value. Come a year from now, the return won't be the same. Like I said, I just see it as an unnecessary gamble. Edit: Reading one of my previous posts, it does sound like I take the tone of Kinkaid being NHL ready. I'd like to see him get a shot, but I'm by no means certain he could do it at the NHL level. Edited February 5, 2014 by thecoffeecake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brown Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong if I am. Obviously I see there being a slim chance of him doing so, but I feel as if it's an unnecessary gamble. No goaltender is irreplaceable. Risking it with skaters, I have less of a problem with. Why does anyone care if Cory Schneider or some other capable goaltender is stopping pucks for us? Quite frankly, I am of the belief that the gap between the best goalie in the league and the worst is quite small. I believe any NHL caliber starting goalie is capable of winning a Vezina. Whether it's Schneider, Kinkaid, or whoever, it doesn't really matter to me. I think Kinkaid is capable of being a good goalie. It was the whole idea that you think Schneider is as good as gone. You have no idea if he's gone or not. I'm not a big fan of the arrogance of Schneider personally. But I think he's a great goalie. That being said, I think Kinkaid is more than capable of being a great goalie as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muevelos Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Why would Corey leave? Trading him is completely stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecoffeecake Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) Quite frankly, I am of the belief that the gap between the best goalie in the league and the worst is quite small. I believe any NHL caliber starting goalie is capable of winning a Vezina. Whether it's Schneider, Kinkaid, or whoever, it doesn't really matter to me. I think Kinkaid is capable of being a good goalie. It was the whole idea that you think Schneider is as good as gone. You have no idea if he's gone or not. I'm not a big fan of the arrogance of Schneider personally. But I think he's a great goalie. That being said, I think Kinkaid is more than capable of being a great goalie as well. Then, we're really not coming from that different of places here. I completely agree that the gap between NHL goaltenders is small, which is why I think they should send him somewhere for someone capable and a prospect or two. It doesn't matter who's between the pipes, as long as they're stopping pucks. That's why I think it's a useless gamble to try to resign him. Like I said, there is a chance he'll sign long term, I'm not so stuck in my opinion that I don't recognize that, but I don't want to see the day come where Schneider walks, and now we're looking at giving up a prospect for someone who isn't going to stop the same amount of shots as Cory or as someone we could get for Cory. That's where I'm coming from here. But a lot of this is because of Lou's stubbornness in talking contracts during the season. If I knew he was talking to Cory through next season, I'd be confident that either A, they'd get a deal done, long or short term, or B, Lou would make the necessary trade if negotiations weren't going anywhere. I'd be a lot less gung-ho about this if that was the case. Edited February 5, 2014 by thecoffeecake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brown Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Then, we're really not coming from that different of places here. I completely agree that the gap between NHL goaltenders is small, which is why I think they should send him somewhere for someone capable and a prospect or two. It doesn't matter who's between the pipes, as long as they're stopping pucks. That's why I think it's a useless gamble to try to resign him. Like I said, there is a chance he'll sign long term, I'm not so stuck in my opinion that I don't recognize that, but I don't want to see the day come where Schneider walks, and now we're looking at giving up a prospect for someone who isn't going to stop the same amount of shots as Cory or as someone we could get for Cory. That's where I'm coming from here. But a lot of this is because of Lou's stubbornness in talking contracts during the season. If I knew he was talking to Cory through next season, I'd be confident that either A, they'd get a deal done, long or short term, or B, Lou would make the necessary trade if negotiations weren't going anywhere. I'd be a lot less gung-ho about this if that was the case. Lou will probably talk to him and Greene over the summer. If Zajac's contract is any indication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas0nMacIsaac Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I think I would target Milan Michalek. At 6`2 215 with good size and speed he is the type of player DeBoer likes to wear down the opposition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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