‏Zach Parise has agreed to terms with the Minnesota Wild

[Crisis]

Wilson was the coach of the Leafs at the time, that's different than some guy saying I had a conversation with a person from the team and he said "whatever". You'd need a smoking gun, like an email where the GM said he told someone to specifically leak the information to the media, and you won't get that email unless the league investigates, and you likely can't get an investigation started without hard evidence, so it's a catch 22.

Just wanted to let you know that that was post number 16,666. Bravo.

[Triumph]

The other way around you do realize that Toronto got a fine for tampering cause Wilson said "You're hearing right now — and this sounds very contradictory — but there is a real possibility I would think that we would be going after the Sedins. Let's just speculate there" on the radio.

Yes, and he barely got fined for that. Please tell me when a Minnesota-employed person has publicly stated interest in Zach Parise.

[Daniel]

Yes, and he barely got fined for that. Please tell me when a Minnesota-employed person has publicly stated interest in Zach Parise.

Again, the NHL bylaws state that one can tamper by making public statements directly or "indirectly".

So the scenario that at least sounds plausible right now is that Nanne and current Wild management have dinner together, and Wild management tells Nanne "we won't get outbid for Parise, but don't tell anyone we said that" wink, wink. That is undoubtedly tampering, which would be even more evident when the Wild give a massive offer. Saying that it doesn't take a genius to figure out that was Minnesota's plan all along does not change the analysis.

[Devils731]

Again, the NHL bylaws state that one can tamper by making public statements directly or "indirectly".

So the scenario that at least sounds plausible right now is that Nanne and current Wild management have dinner together, and Wild management tells Nanne "we won't get outbid for Parise, but don't tell anyone we said that" wink, wink. That is undoubtedly tampering, which would be even more evident when the Wild give a massive offer. Saying that it doesn't take a genius to figure out that was Minnesota's plan all along does not change the analysis.

The problem is showing that your scenario, or one like it, happened.

[Daniel]

The problem is showing that your scenario, or one like it, happened.

It depends on what investigative tools the league has as its disposal, which I can't speak to. My guess though is that the league has some mechanism to compel, at least Wild management and others under league control, to answer questions under oath, and perhaps demand documents from the Wild.

[Triumph]

It depends on what investigative tools the league has as its disposal, which I can't speak to. My guess though is that the league has some mechanism to compel, at least Wild management and others under league control, to answer questions under oath, and perhaps demand documents from the Wild.

Right, but why would it do this in the first place?

What compelled Lou to seek out the league to investigate was the sense that he was not negotiating with the Stevens camp - that they already had a deal in place.

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/01/05/sports/hockey-devils-get-1.4-million-and-draft-pick-in-tampering-case.html

"In a process of negotiations, when they are ongoing and you are speaking, you can usually sense when there is something else involved,'' Lamoriello said. ''I sensed that I was talking to myself. I just felt as though there was something funny in the way things transpired, the way things went. I was the sole person that could be negotiating, but I felt very strongly reading some of the articles that did come out of St. Louis and things I was hearing, that something happened."

The Wild have no need to say that they will blow Zach out of the water. Zach's agents have to know that already.

[SterioDesign]

well obviously they could never really prove anything but i'd just like the NHL to look into at least to scare other teams to try to pull this off in the future, or at least act as if they care

[SterioDesign]

bottom line is that the whole media world outside TG seems to be trying so hard to make zach sign elsewhere. They keep on bringing back the ownership issues and talk about bankruptcy all the time bringing it back but not saying a word when there's good news coming about it though, then they all let the world know that they'll go for Zach for that much money and for that long bla bla bla

if Zach endup re-signing in NJ before July 1st... man... what a victory

[Triumph]

bottom line is that the whole media world outside TG seems to be trying so hard to make zach sign elsewhere. They keep on bringing back the ownership issues and talk about bankruptcy all the time bringing it back but not saying a word when there's good news coming about it though, then they all let the world know that they'll go for Zach for that much money and for that long bla bla bla

if Zach endup re-signing in NJ before July 1st... man... what a victory

Like maxpower has pointed out, it might actually end up costing the Devils MORE money to do this than to sign him after July 1.

[Daniel]

Right, but why would it do this in the first place?

What compelled Lou to seek out the league to investigate was the sense that he was not negotiating with the Stevens camp - that they already had a deal in place.

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/01/05/sports/hockey-devils-get-1.4-million-and-draft-pick-in-tampering-case.html

"In a process of negotiations, when they are ongoing and you are speaking, you can usually sense when there is something else involved,'' Lamoriello said. ''I sensed that I was talking to myself. I just felt as though there was something funny in the way things transpired, the way things went. I was the sole person that could be negotiating, but I felt very strongly reading some of the articles that did come out of St. Louis and things I was hearing, that something happened."

The Wild have no need to say that they will blow Zach out of the water. Zach's agents have to know that already.

Just the way it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the Blues would be interested in Stevens.

The obviousness that the Wild are prepared to make a giant offer does not impact whether a particular scenario amounts to tampering. The only issue right now is what actually happened. Perhaps Nanne was simply talking out of his ass, in which case that would be the end of the story. My opinion though is that there's enough there there to raise antennae of the powers that be. You couple that with rumors from Minnesota press that actually state dollar figures, I think the case for some kind of inquiry is even stronger. (Point it out if I'm wrong, but I haven't even heard Єklund (2.3% accurate) or hockeyinsiderr claim to have sources stating contract amounts that would be offered to Suter by another team or any other past high profile UFAs).

If anything, I think Lou's quote actually proves my point when he refers to "reading some of the articles".

ADDENDUM: As to why the Wild would do this, sometimes people just act stupidly, or think they can get away with it. You could ask why St. Louis did what it did knowing that they could get in trouble for it.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Daniel

[SterioDesign]

Like maxpower has pointed out, it might actually end up costing the Devils MORE money to do this than to sign him after July 1.

thats true. It also *could* have cost them less not waiting a week before free agency and not letting other teams giving him so much leverage knowing he could get crazy money or better cup chances somewhere else.

2-3 weeks ago the Pens we're not even in talks about Zach and now to me they are frontrunners or pretty damn close to NJ's chances.

and i don't want to hear about that "deserved chance to test the market", you don't put a C on guy just to "freely let him test the market cause he deserve it" a year after, ridiculous.

[Devil Dan 56]

thats true. It also *could* have cost them less not waiting a week before free agency and not letting other teams giving him so much leverage knowing he could get crazy money or better cup chances somewhere else.

2-3 weeks ago the Pens we're not even in talks about Zach and now to me they are frontrunners or pretty damn close to NJ's chances.

and i don't want to hear about that "deserved chance to test the market", you don't put a C on guy just to "freely let him test the market cause he deserve it" a year after, ridiculous.

You are oversimplifying this again. The Devils reportedly offered 7 years at 49 million last year (no evidence, just rumors) and Zach's agents told him to turn it down. It's not just 2 people sit at a table, throw out numbers, shake hands and sign a contract. Zach's agents were hired to make the best possible deal for him, and they know that the best possible deal will be found Sunday. If Zach decides to stay after seeing the money Pitt or Minnesota will throw at him, that would be awesome. But Zach hired that agency to get his payday. It makes no sense for him to sign now when he has a chance to at least see what is out there.

If he wouldn't sign last summer when he had a year before UFA status, why wouldn't he just wait 3 days?

[Daniel]

If he wouldn't sign last summer when he had a year before UFA status, why wouldn't he just wait 3 days?

He might not want to see an offer too big to turn down to go to a team he doesn't really want to play for.

In any event, I think it's pretty obvious that the Devils right now are offering more than what they are rumored to have last summer. So his agents gave him good advice even if he re-signs before July 1.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Daniel

[SterioDesign]

You are oversimplifying this again. The Devils reportedly offered 7 years at 49 million last year (no evidence, just rumors) and Zach's agents told him to turn it down. It's not just 2 people sit at a table, throw out numbers, shake hands and sign a contract. Zach's agents were hired to make the best possible deal for him, and they know that the best possible deal will be found Sunday. If Zach decides to stay after seeing the money Pitt or Minnesota will throw at him, that would be awesome. But Zach hired that agency to get his payday. It makes no sense for him to sign now when he has a chance to at least see what is out there.

If he wouldn't sign last summer when he had a year before UFA status, why wouldn't he just wait 3 days?

yes obviously, all you just said made all the sense in the world but that's from Zach and his agents point of view and thats my point, they want to get the best deal possible, thats their ultimate goal right?

But does it make sense from Lou's perceptive or from the Devils organization? Lou's goal should be to keep Zach with the best possible deal he can and let him walk if its not reasonable, and the way Lou approached the situation to me GUARANTEE him to pay every single penny and even more than what he can really give + risking losing him on the market.

edit: obviously i know that maybe it could have ended up the same way at the end of it. But for the love of God at least TRY.

Edited June 28, 2012 by SterioDesign

[maxpower]

thats true. It also *could* have cost them less not waiting a week before free agency and not letting other teams giving him so much leverage knowing he could get crazy money or better cup chances somewhere else.

2-3 weeks ago the Pens we're not even in talks about Zach and now to me they are frontrunners or pretty damn close to NJ's chances.

and i don't want to hear about that "deserved chance to test the market", you don't put a C on guy just to "freely let him test the market cause he deserve it" a year after, ridiculous.

You're overvaluing the C again. Lyle Odelein wore a C. You're still also not grasping how much money it takes to pull a UFA off the market. It's not so much the cap hit or the yearly value, it's the total sum of money. Things can and do happen. If someone offered me a 7/49 and someone else offered me a 12/80, I'd probably take the 12/80. In a sense it's "less money", but I'm also pocketing $31 million more in case my leg falls off or I wash out. And hell if I wash out to the point I have to retire or get bought out, most of the extra $31 million will STILL get paid out.

[SterioDesign]

Yeah, I'm sure the Devils are just sitting on their hands and watching Full House re-runs.

now that's oversimplifying what i said. Lou REFUSED to begin talks until 1 week before free agency, thats NOT setting yourself up for the best deal you possibly can, its just not.

Edited June 28, 2012 by SterioDesign

[CarpathianForest]

Yeah, I'm sure the Devils are just sitting on their hands and watching Full House re-runs.

Yeah, Dude!

[Triumph]

yes obviously, all you just said made all the sense in the world but that's from Zach and his agents point of view and thats my point, they want to get the best deal possible, thats their ultimate goal right?

But does it make sense from Lou's perceptive or from the Devils organization? Lou's goal should be to keep Zach with the best possible deal he can and let him walk if its not reasonable, and the way Lou approached the situation to me GUARANTEE him to pay every single penny and even more than what he can really give + risking losing him on the market.

edit: obviously i know that maybe it could have ended up the same way at the end of it. But for the love of God at least TRY.

This is silly. How can you give Lou the option of 'letting him walk if it's not reasonable' if he never lets him walk?

The point is that to give up the option to negotiate UFA, Zach may demand a higher price than he would ultimately receive, if his goal is to stay in New Jersey. If the Wild offer isn't thought of as credible and the rest of the suitors try to lowball one another, the Devils could end up paying more if they signed him today than if they signed him Monday.

[Daniel]

now that's oversimplifying what i said. Lou REFUSED to begin talks until 1 week before free agency, thats NOT setting yourself up for the best deal you possibly can, its just not.

It's the policy of a lot GMs, and players for that matter, not to negotiate during the season. Even the Yankees do that.

[Devil Dan 56]

now that's oversimplifying what i said. Lou REFUSED to begin talks until 1 week before free agency, thats NOT setting yourself up for the best deal you possibly can, its just not.

He supposedly offered a long term contract last summer, which Zach's camp turned down. Then the season ran until mid-June, there was the draft, and then Lou opened negotiations with all of his FA's. I don't know why you think he didn't put in an effort. Zach's agents want to get to Sunday. THAT's where the money is. It doesn't matter what Lou offers, they still want to see what they can get Sunday. Could they always turn around and take the Devils deal? Yes. But it makes no sense for him to sign now.

[ghdi]

now that's oversimplifying what i said. Lou REFUSED to begin talks until 1 week before free agency, thats NOT setting yourself up for the best deal you possibly can, its just not.

He's done it w/ virtually every free agent we've ever had and has a decent track record of keeping them here. Look at the record yourself. Yes, we've lost some guys, but more than half of them wanted to leave to begin with, the ones that stay where there's a mutual desire to stay, usually do. We also were playing hockey a lot later than anyone expected.

Put yourself in Zach's shoes. You're 27 soon to be 28. You're hitting the open market for the first time and are the premier offensive free agent on the market. There's going to be 10, if not 30 teams interested in you, and probably 15 with a legitimate ability to sign you. Would you not want to see what is offered out there? As much as loyalty counts, its still a business and his agents have a lot of sway. We also don't know (regardless of what read in newspapers) what our financial/ownership situation really is.

Contract negotiations cut both ways. It's not entirely Lou's fault if he re-signs a guy or if a guy leaves unless a decision was made to let someone go because they'd be too expensive or no longer fit on the team here.

Lou deserves flack at times, but not here. Very few guys that are due to be free agents don't make it to market.

Edited June 28, 2012 by ghdi

[NJDevs4978]

Supposedly (via sundstrom) Lou DID try to sign him during the season and Zach would have taken it but his agents nixed the offer. To assume he didn't try because negotiations didn't go public is silly. Lou admitted he wouldn't be averse to negotiating with Zach in-season, it takes two to sign a deal though.

[ghdi]

If Parise leaves, the only person I'm going to be blaming is Zach Parise.

[NJDevs4978]

The Wild have no need to say that they will blow Zach out of the water. Zach's agents have to know that already.

I'm sure they've been told that (and I'm sure teams say a lot of stuff to agents that may or may not be true to try and entice their client to hit the market) but hearing it through a go-between with ties to both sides certainly gives it more credibility. Especially with him putting it out in the media, the Wild certainly wouldn't be getting word out publicly if they didn't intend to follow through on the offer.

Or maybe they put out the numbers as a preemptive strike to intimidate other teams, who would have no idea what the Wild are offering before July 1. Whatever the reason, Nanne was a former GM in the league, he knew exactly what he was saying. To suggest it's coincidence the Wild magically invited him up to let him know the numbers and he (knowing what the tampering rules are) skirted the line but didn't outright state numbers is more than enough circumstancial evidence to suggest something was going on. And then the numbers magically came out in the next day or two. Have you even heard one rumored offer to Suter yet?

Edited June 28, 2012 by NJDevs4978

[SterioDesign]

This is silly. How can you give Lou the option of 'letting him walk if it's not reasonable' if he never lets him walk?

The point is that to give up the option to negotiate UFA, Zach may demand a higher price than he would ultimately receive, if his goal is to stay in New Jersey. If the Wild offer isn't thought of as credible and the rest of the suitors try to lowball one another, the Devils could end up paying more if they signed him today than if they signed him Monday.

Just like he did with Gomer and Gionta, they wanted too much for what Lou was willing to give and they never looked back, which is good.

Your point is valid too and its true that in some cases you gotta "buy" the player's right to test the market BUT it goes both ways and most folks here absolutely REFUSE to pretend that Lou's way is bad.

It sucks that I have to say this but Holmgren... Holmgren handled his stars INCREDIBLY WELL and got a really good contracts out of Richards and Carter which (for their cap hits) is a steal if you ask me. Why? Cause he didnt wait last fvcking minute and didnt play hard ball with them. He re-signed Richards mid-season while everything was going right, he was feeling good about the organization and he really wanted to be a Flyer forever "lol" Same things with Carter he signed him in november and both never had the chance to get that much leverage to get every single penny or get in a bidding war with them.

Of course it's different cause Zach was injured in his RFA year but my point is that Lou would not have done it the Holmgren way either. Did the flyers paid THAT MUCH to buy their players rights to test the market? lol no. not at all.

Lou has his way and thats good. But you just cannot get the best out of everything if you don't adjust, you just can't and he's not. Who knows if we could have kept Nieds and Rafalski if he would have TRIED to resign them mid season or wtv... maybe not obviously, but maybe we could have re-sign them. And thats my point, anyone here saying that there's absolutely 100% NO CHANCE that he could have maybe resigned them if he would have approached them at the right time during the season. First, you're out of your mind, even if it would have been a 10% chance, well you still take it.

from Lou himself "When time is on youre side, you take it"... what a ridiculous thing to say especially coming from a guy who has 6 months to try to re-sign 13 players and waits until he has 1 week to re-sign them all. Of course im not saying he's sitting on his ass not doing anything the rest of the season but in term of signing players Lou is driving me absolutely crazy.