Bill of rights question

[Pepperkorn]

Does anyone know which bill it was on the original Bill of Rights that was never ratified by the states?

It amazing how little I know about our government. Long story still too long: I'm helping out my brother-in-law and doing a Colonial reenactment thing and -- yes yes authentic clothing the whole 9 yards.... (yes, you'll see pictures Facebook friends ) ANYHOW -- I've been watching John Adams the mini series to ogle the clothing and I realize how very little I actually know about our founding fathers and this wonderful documentation they created. The mini-series stinks btw. I though Paul woudl be a good choice what with his parents - mostly his mom in this case actually -- but boy he is SOOOO irritating. and they messed with the time lines and facts of Adams family life... it's just annoying.

ANYHOW --- I think it woudl be neat if we had threads about the Bill of Rights and The Constitution rather than everyone talking out of there ass. At least get the facts of the document straight and THEN talk out of your ass in the interpretation.

Would that be cool? I think it's relevant. I think it's especially relevant. We've forgotten too much of what this country was founded on and have allowed opportunists to do our interpreting for us.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Pepperkorn

[Pepperkorn]

I'm trying to find a link -- my husband just told me about a book Justice Souter wrote I think. It's all about how we do not require history of US government as we do math and english. He is so right, We need to educate ourselves in order to go to elections with any sort of true authority. It's been granted to us and we just --- are we that stupid? that lazy? We're all these fat complacent lazy pigs being led to slaughter. It's so sad!

ANyhow I have to find this book or article or whatever..

UPDATE: As always my husband has crossed something somewhere and I'll never figure out what the hell he was listening to. He referred to Justice Stevens and his book Five Chiefs. But no where in the article was there reference to mandatory testing for US government. He mist have had a discussion with someone about it.

and so we're back... back to Stevens.... it's ALWAYS STEVENS with me on this stupid forum

Edited March 8, 2012 by Pepperkorn

[Masked Fan]

The article yer asking about had something to do with the size of the House being dependent on population.

&

"...those who do not learn from the mistakes of their past are doomed to repeat them..."

[Daniel]

I'm trying to find a link -- my husband just told me about a book Justice Souter wrote I think. It's all about how we do not require history of US government as we do math and english. He is so right, We need to educate ourselves in order to go to elections with any sort of true authority. It's been granted to us and we just --- are we that stupid? that lazy? We're all these fat complacent lazy pigs being led to slaughter. It's so sad!

ANyhow I have to find this book or article or whatever..

UPDATE: As always my husband has crossed something somewhere and I'll never figure out what the hell he was listening to. He referred to Justice Stevens and his book Five Chiefs. But no where in the article was there reference to mandatory testing for US government. He mist have had a discussion with someone about it.

and so we're back... back to Stevens.... it's ALWAYS STEVENS with me on this stupid forum

I can only speak for myself, but the history of the US government was taught in my high school. The problem is mainly that it's taught in a way where students are required to memorize facts by rote. To the extent that any theories are involved, it's usually that the founders were all bad white men that owned slaves and then skips right to Vietnam (maybe now teaching that George Bush is the devil is required "learning" as well). I suppose the history of the government could be taught more like a constitutional law class, but, even though I don't find it to be rocket science, apparently to a lot of people, including teachers, it is. (I would bet you a dollar that at least 95% of teachers couldn't tell you what the holding of Roe v. Wade actually was, and even if they were told probably couldn't grasp the concept). That's why vague and empty concepts such as "social justice" are taught before more thoughtful concepts such as natural rights. Perhaps things are a little different now though given that you don't need to comb through outdated textbooks to get the information you need.

In any event, I was a history major in college, and have regretted it ever since. I wish I focused more on sciences, which is a lot more challenging and teaches you to think logically even if you don't become a chemist, an engineer or a physicist. In my experience some of the best lawyers have some kind of science background. History just teaches you to come up with bullsh*t theories to fit cherry-picked facts, although it can be fun at times.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Daniel

[Pepperkorn]

I agree Daniel . I dont have first-hand knowledge of our current Revolutionary War era curriculum, but I get the exact same idea. When I look at the teaching material online, I think educators are trying to emphasize the role of African Americans in the Revolution - but once the information is put out, the reaction of the loud is anger. All pride and empowerment is shouted down by anger. Understandable - and then the anger ends up getting the front page news... but that's a whole other kettle of fish.

I think it's a compelling idea to add US Government into standardized testing - more like a citizenship test than a history lesson. It is simple - but I don't think a lot of people understand the three branches of government. They don't understand where states fit in. People off the streets trust politicians and legislators and worst of all bloggers to tell them what the law is and who is responsible for what.

I'd like people to be more certain of themselves holding up the Constitution than the Bible when talking about US citizens' rights.

It's NOT rocket science, hence why it should be taught with an eye to a standardized test.

EDIT: you know -- maybe it's dangerous because then you do see how the bible is rather deuteronimous. That is to say, it's not the word of god, it's a law, created by men with clear visions of how they wanted to manipulate society. anyhow...

Edited March 9, 2012 by Pepperkorn

[Jerrydevil]

I have an unrealistic fantasy about homeschooling my kids because my confidence in NJ public schools is not very high. I have already seen tiny examples of left-wing indoctrination on my kindergartner. It's only going to get worse when history classes start.

But I have decided to make the best of it and take on the role of "friendly adversary." I want to get my kids to see that what the schools teach isn't necessarily the golden truth. Right now it's mostly reading and simple math, so I have not roared much yet!

[devilsfan26]

What examples of left-wing indoctrination have you seen in kindergarten?

[Jerrydevil]

What examples of left-wing indoctrination have you seen in kindergarten?

The presentation of Kwanzaa as a legitimate holiday alongside Christmas and Hannukah is the one that comes to mind.

[Daniel]

The presentation of Kwanzaa as a legitimate holiday alongside Christmas and Hannukah is the one that comes to mind.

What's funny is that Hannukah isn't all that an important holiday in the Jewish tradition. It just get a lot of recognition these days since it falls around the same time as Christmas and has been relatively recently designated as the time when you give gifts (or instead of one cool gift, eight crappy gifts).

And don't fret about the Kwanzaa thing. Throughout my elementary shooling, there was maybe a total of a half hour of instruction on its existence and what it is. Have you ever met a black person who celebrates Kwansaa? I know I haven't. I imagine it will be the same for your kids, and they'll completely forget about it a few days later.

[Devils Dose]

The presentation of Kwanzaa as a legitimate holiday alongside Christmas and Hannukah is the one that comes to mind.

These holidays are not pushed together because of some liberal, left-wing, "let's all share this time so nobody feels bad or left out" thing. They are pushed by retailers, advertisers and other capitalist interests for the purpose of getting everybody to catch the materialist fervor that comes with that season.

[Devils731]

These holidays are not pushed together because of some liberal, left-wing, "let's all share this time so nobody feels bad or left out" thing. They are pushed by retailers, advertisers and other capitalist interests for the purpose of getting everybody to catch the materialist fervor that comes with that season.

I'm going to disagree with that. I don't believe anyone is making much money on Kwanzaa:

http://web.archive.org/web/20041118072528/http://www.nrf.com/content/default.asp?folder=press/holiday&file=HolidayRegion1004.htm

Only 1.6% of the population was going to celebrate Kwanzaa in 2004, that's not enough for the retailers to bother catering to.

I do believe it's put in place specifically to have a "non-white" holiday to celebrate.

http://www.greetingcarduniverse.com/holidays/kwanzaa.asp

Ron Karenga created Kwanzaa in California in 1966, during his leadership of the black nationalist United Slaves Organization (also known as the "US Organization"), in order to give African Americans an alternative holiday to Christmas. He later stated, "''...it was chosen to give a Black alternative to the existing holiday and give Blacks an opportunity to celebrate themselves and history, rather than simply imitate the practice of the dominant society.''"

Concerning those who thought he was adapting kwanzaa from a traditional African practice, Karenga noted "People think it's African, but it's not. I came up with Kwanzaa because black people wouldn't celebrate it if they knew it was American. Also, I put it around Christmas because I knew that's when a lot of Bloods were partying."

[Jerrydevil]

I imagine it will be the same for your kids, and they'll completely forget about it a few days later.

You're probably right about that.

How it came about to be part of school curriculum is what bugs me. It's an example of political correctness gone haywire.

A good friend of mine who lives in Massachusetts says his kids know the "Kwanzaa song." I have no idea what that is, LOL!

Edited March 13, 2012 by Jerrydevil

[ghdi]

How it came about to be part of school curriculum is what bugs me. It's an example of political correctness gone haywire.

You don't think its a good thing for kids to learn about different cultures/beliefs/ways of life?? It has nothing to do with political correctness. You come off as a myopic xenophobe with that kind of reaction.

"Left wing indoctrination"

Edited March 14, 2012 by ghdi

[Devils731]

You don't think its a good thing for kids to learn about different cultures/beliefs/ways of life?? It has nothing to do with political correctness. You come off as a myopic xenophobe with that kind of reaction.

"Left wing indoctrination"

It's a made up holiday that the culture was purposefully misconstrued to try and gain followers.

The founder of the holiday also founded a group that created a youth para-military arm that was once friendly the Black Panthers and lster had a public shootout with the Black Panthers that left 3 dead. The founder was also convicted and put in jail for kidnapping and torturing a woman.

I'm not sure why a made up holiday, founded by a guy who has done some pretty bad things, and has almost nobody celebrating it, is brought up in our schools. If we need to include all possible holidays then the schools should probably be celebrating Freedom Day as well, since it's around that time of year.

[Pepperkorn]

Bill of Rights thread .....and we're diverted to Kwanza. Well, we see what matters then don't we? You will ponder and think for hours on how Kwanza affects your rights....

So no one really thinks there is any problem at all with our system. It's so ideal that we can hone down to trivialities like who's rights are being violated and by whom, with or without Kwanza.

I guess that's good then.

Unless it's that people are so misguided they don't even know what the hell a right IS, much less why it might be important to them.

and they have no desire to actually learn. The best way to avoid actually putting in the leg work to understand your rights is to scream shout and argue about how they're being violated.

[Jerrydevil]

Sorry, PK, didn't mean to hijack it.

[Pepperkorn]

No no -- I didn't feel that way -- I'd have used the smiley if I did.

Honestly. There is no conversation to be had because either people don't know the Bill of Rights enough to write off the cuff, they dont care, they think it's self-evident.

People feel educated enough about the actual US Government documentation. and they get to say Ahh it's so subject to interpretation that our talking is pointless.

No one wants to know, is the real point. They just want to assume - haul this stuff out when it suits them. Invent stuff because they know how little we all know and they can get away with it. It's all just rhetorical.

Take Kwanza off the floor and this thread dies.

[ghdi]

If we need to include all possible holidays then the schools should probably be celebrating Freedom Day as well, since it's around that time of year.

What school anywhere celebrates Kwanzaa? The only time I ever heard Kwanzaa brought up in school was in HS (I went to HS in a southern town that had a 40% - 50% black population) was when someone asked what it was. It was explained by the teacher what it was and I never heard about it again. This was in the mid 90s. I can totally understand if a child in kindergarten asks about it especially if they live in an area with a large black community.

It's an absolutely ridiculous thing to moan about. Its inconsequential to anything. I highly doubt any school anywhere in this country spends more than 10 minutes talking about it. Its mentioned on the news virtually every holiday season at some point, and Id rather my kids knew wtf it was rather than be completely ignorant to it.

[Jerrydevil]

Pepperkorn, a couple of years ago, I discovered that I knew very little about the Constitution. Whatever I learned in high school didn't stick, and it was not a topic covered in any college courses I took.

As a person who was getting ready to give a kiss goodbye to a lifetime of liberal ideology (much to the chagrin of parents and close friends!), I turned to conservative radio host Mark Levin to educate me about the Bill of Rights. As you might know, he is an originalist, a person who believes in interpreting the Constitution according to the intent of those who drafted it. For me, it's the way to go, not the "living, breathing document" philosophy that modern liberals have used to make a mockery of the document that is the bedrock of the USA.

[Jerrydevil]

What school anywhere celebrates Kwanzaa? The only time I ever heard Kwanzaa brought up in school was in HS (I went to HS in a southern town that had a 40% - 50% black population) was when someone asked what it was. It was explained by the teacher what it was and I never heard about it again. This was in the mid 90s. I can totally understand if a child in kindergarten asks about it especially if they live in an area with a large black community.

It's an absolutely ridiculous thing to moan about. Its inconsequential to anything. I highly doubt any school anywhere in this country spends more than 10 minutes talking about it. Its mentioned on the news virtually every holiday season at some point, and Id rather my kids knew wtf it was rather than be completely ignorant to it.

If it's inconsequential (and it is), then why should it be in schools for even 10 minutes? It deserves nothing. My son definitely knows about it now. He said to me, "Dad, Kwanzaa's the phony holiday, right?"

That's my boy!

[ghdi]

If it's inconsequential (and it is), then why should it be in schools for even 10 minutes? It deserves nothing. My son definitely knows about it now.

Kwanzaa is usually mentioned (if at all) in a curriculum when discussing holidays in general with children. Not everyone in this country celebrate Christmas. What is the problem with explaining to a child that other people may celebrate something else? Do you feel threatened by it? I see absolutely nothing wrong with a child being taught that there are differences in holidays, not only in this country, but around the world as well. Your stance seems to say that you'd rather children (or anyone) be ignorant of things than at least know wtf it is.

[DevsMan84]

Pepperkorn, a couple of years ago, I discovered that I knew very little about the Constitution. Whatever I learned in high school didn't stick, and it was not a topic covered in any college courses I took.

As a person who was getting ready to give a kiss goodbye to a lifetime of liberal ideology (much to the chagrin of parents and close friends!), I turned to conservative radio host Mark Levin to educate me about the Bill of Rights. As you might know, he is an originalist, a person who believes in interpreting the Constitution according to the intent of those who drafted it. For me, it's the way to go, not the "living, breathing document" philosophy that modern liberals have used to make a mockery of the document that is the bedrock of the USA.

I too wish I could be a bit of an originalist when it comes to interpreting the Constitution, but that is impossible and even the Founding Fathers knew that. In the actual Constitution body itself and not just the Amendments section, there is the "Elastic Clause." Basically it gives the laws written in the Consitution flexibility given the time-period. The Founding Fathers knew that laws created in 1789 may not apply or mean the same thing in 1889, so they threw that in there saying the Consitution should be subject to change given the time.

While I am no liberal by any means, they do have a point where the document is in a way a leaving breathing document.

Edited March 14, 2012 by DevsMan84

[DevsMan84]

Kwanzaa is usually mentioned (if at all) in a curriculum when discussing holidays in general with children. Not everyone in this country celebrate Christmas. What is the problem with explaining to a child that other people may celebrate something else? Do you feel threatened by it? I see absolutely nothing wrong with a child being taught that there are differences in holidays, not only in this country, but around the world as well. Your stance seems to say that you'd rather children (or anyone) be ignorant of things than at least know wtf it is.

I do remember back in elementary school having to learn Kwanzaa quite a bit and even include it in all the decorations in the classroom. We also read the lyrics of a song about it but never actually sang it.

They also failed to mention the dubious past of the person who created it as well that it is really a recent invention. The teachers made it seem like it was an old traditional African holiday that all African Americans celebrated.

[Jerrydevil]

I too wish I could be a bit of an originalist when it comes to interpreting the Constitution, but that is impossible and even the Founding Fathers knew that. In the actual Constitution body itself and not just the Amendments section, there is the "Elastic Clause." Basically it gives the laws written in the Consitution flexibility given the time-period. The Founding Fathers knew that laws created in 1789 may not apply or mean the same thing in 1889, so they threw that in there saying the Consitution should be subject to change given the time.

While I am no liberal by any means, they do have a point where the document is in a way a leaving breathing document.

Let me be more specific. Liberals have interpreted the Ninth Amendment (unenumerated rights) as a green light to pile on more "rights" that aren't really rights, just big government and radical wealth redistribution with a big liberal bow tied around them. The founders believed in a limited federal government, it's undeniable. And they wouldn't like what they see today.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Jerrydevil

[Jerrydevil]

The teachers made it seem like it was an old traditional African holiday that all African Americans celebrated.

That's because the teachers probably don't even know the truth!