RAY SHERO = NEW GM. Coach decision is Shero's.

[themightyall]

Here is the reference for JVB being behind the kovy contract.

http://fireandice.northjersey.com/mobile/fire-ice-1.174987/devils-gm-lou-lamoriello-admits-kovalchuk-contract-shouldn-t-be-part-of-nhl-1.95545

 

I stand corrected about that.  I love seeing things I thought proven wrong, Tri and DM84, I thank you:  "You'd have to speak to ownership about that," Lamoriello said. "The commitment that ownership has made here, this is a commitment and a decision they wanted to make for this type of a player and all I can do is say whether the player is a player that will fit into the team, can help the team and is not a risk as a player. As far as what the financial commitment is and that aspect of it, that was out of my hands."

 

Does anyone know based on what Will said, did Lou sort of testify against himself on these absurd contracts?  It makes sense seeing this.  Hossa, Pronger, etc go unscathed but this was punished?

Edited May 26, 2015 by themightyall

[devilsrule33]

If they were smart businessmen, they shouldn't have purchased a sports team. Outside of the NFL, it is difficult to break even or make money, which I assume is their main goal. 

 

If this was the non salary cap era, I wouldn't be all that concerned with their comments, but post lockout there seems to be a correlation with money spent and on ice success. 

 

And you can bring up Blackstone, I know about Blackstone, I own the MLP, they are the Goldman Sachs of private equity, but this is different. The team is within the world of finance still, but this is as much about the heart as it is the head. 

 

You are aware they bought the 76ers for under $300 million in what is the last great bargain in North American Professional Sports.  A year and a half later the Clippers were sold for 2 billiion, and the least valuable franchise in the NBA (Milwaukee) sold for $550 million. Now the Hawks are to be sold for $850 million. If Harris and Blitzer put the 76ers up for sale, they would make over $550 million profit in a little over 3 years.

Edited May 30, 2015 by devilsrule33

[themightyall]

You are aware they bought the 76ers for under $300 million in what is the last great bargain in North American Professional Sports.  A year and a half later the Clippers were sold for a billiion, and the least valuable franchise in the NBA (Milwaukee) sold for $550 million. Now the Hawks are to be sold for $850 million. If Harris and Blitzer put the 76ers up for sale, they would make over $550 million profit in a little over 3 years.

 

Do you want go in with me on buying the Devils?  With the difference in mindset, I feel like with the both of us we could make a great team.  I'm in it for championships, maybe not much money so if you are in it for that, I don't know if I can help you.  Maybe Harris will.

Edited May 26, 2015 by themightyall

[Triumph]

I stand corrected about that.  I love seeing things I thought proven wrong, Tri and DM84, I thank you:  "You'd have to speak to ownership about that," Lamoriello said. "The commitment that ownership has made here, this is a commitment and a decision they wanted to make for this type of a player and all I can do is say whether the player is a player that will fit into the team, can help the team and is not a risk as a player. As far as what the financial commitment is and that aspect of it, that was out of my hands."

 

Does anyone know based on what Will said, did Lou sort of testify against himself on these absurd contracts?  It makes sense seeing this.  Hossa, Pronger, etc go unscathed but this was punished?

 

There's no evidence that Lou wanted the contract canceled - such a position is held only by the fiercest Lou Lamoriello devotees.  Given that the team lost both money and draft picks for that contract, I doubt very much that that's the case.

[William D'Aquila]

You are aware they bought the 76ers for under $300 million in what is the last great bargain in North American Professional Sports.  A year and a half later the Clippers were sold for a billiion, and the least valuable franchise in the NBA (Milwaukee) sold for $550 million. Now the Hawks are to be sold for $850 million. If Harris and Blitzer put the 76ers up for sale, they would make over $550 million profit in a little over 3 years.

 

I'm well aware, but that they were extremely fortunate that occurred. Selling the team and operating the team are two different things. Frankly, I put them in the former camp, as that what people from private equity do.

[Triumph]

You are aware they bought the 76ers for under $300 million in what is the last great bargain in North American Professional Sports.  A year and a half later the Clippers were sold for a billiion, and the least valuable franchise in the NBA (Milwaukee) sold for $550 million. Now the Hawks are to be sold for $850 million. If Harris and Blitzer put the 76ers up for sale, they would make over $550 million profit in a little over 3 years.

 

This is the 'profit' in owning most professional sports teams.  They may lose money or break even in operating expenses but they have exploded in value.  Vanderbeek probably did fine even though he was selling from a position of extreme disadvantage and was probably paying money to debts upon debts.

[Triumph]

So Lou didn't spend a sh!t ton when he was winning cups?  Sure not Rangers, but he was definitely above what would be "the cap" at that time.

 

It's hard to put anything up on either side right now because we don't know where to go.  Some people put their trust in Lou (me and Will) some people put their trust in ownership (place name here).  Neither side knows what they are critiquing so far yet and that is why you are on the sidelines.

 

Full of sound and fury signifying nothing.  It's nothing because we are waiting for facts to argue.  It'd be great to just have everything "formulated, sprawling on a pin" (in your poetic sense) but we won't have that for years because not even Harris or Shero have those answers.  I know everyone will call me archaic or "knowing the devil you do know than the one you don't" by saying I wish Lou were around, but I don't.  I just want a unified path.  Let the owners own, the GM manage, the coaches coach, and the players play.  Lou used to have that down (except maybe the coaches coach).  But I just don't like hearing the owners take another hat just because they have some numbers that justify it.  Maybe it means something to laymen, but it can mean more to others that know the game.

 

The owners had to step in.  The Devils missed the playoffs 3 straight years and arguably got worse each year.  The only unified path that Lou was taking the Devils down was one to obsolescence - and I don't blame him for most of his moves, the Devils had a team with aging stars and you either have to try to augment that with talent or get rid of those stars.  But once it becomes clear that the GM isn't making the moves to turn the franchise around, something has to be done.  They may have tied his hands on a coaching hire during the season, but the Devils were a laughingstock + Cory Schneider from March on, and ownership had to be wary of fixes that involved long-term contracts to aging players.  I wasn't sure that Lou would want to oversee a rebuild that would almost certainly not end before he was taken out of his GM's chair.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Triumph

[themightyall]

The owners had to step in.  The Devils missed the playoffs 3 straight years and arguably got worse each year.  The only unified path that Lou was taking the Devils down was one to obsolescence - and I don't blame him for most of his moves, the Devils had a team with aging stars and you either have to try to augment that with talent or get rid of those stars.  But once it becomes clear that the GM isn't making the moves to turn the franchise around, something has to be done.  They may have tied his hands on a coaching hire during the season, but the Devils were a laughingstock + Cory Schneider from March on, and ownership had to be wary of fixes that involved long-term contracts to aging players.  I wasn't sure that Lou would want to oversee a rebuild that would almost certainly not end before he was taken out of his GM's chair.

 

I agree for the most part.  If the owners don't like the way things are going, of course they can change.  That is the job of the owner.  But owners going forward with that change saying that they want to be involved with the new management to make decisions is what I find egregious.  If you don't like things, change it.  That's fine.  But if you are going to meddle in the ways of hockey after you chose the GM, you better damn well have a background  at least (and success most) in it before I put any value in you deciding things.

Edited May 26, 2015 by themightyall

[BostonNala370]

They're smart businessmen, they're not penny pinchers.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with what they said - it's pretty much what many of us have been saying for a while now.  They're willing to invest in the team if it's a smart decision that will allow the team to be successful..they're not just going to allow Lou / Shero to spend money carelessly.  

 

Throwing money at a couple middle-of-the-pack veterans isn't a smart investment, and won't solve any problems for the team going forward.

exactly why follow what has failed the last 3 years.

[sundstrom]

I didn't say about financial return.  I'm talking about slow progressive change.  I heard "Unless we have x wins more, you can't pay more than y dollars."

 

 

 

Where has Lou gotten carte blache the past two years?  I agree he probably got it two years ago and that's why he traded for Ruutu but last year, did you get the sense he was a spend thrift?  Havlat was bargain bin.  Gomez, Bernier, Tootoo, you can go on and on.  Bargain bin.  A couple weeks ago they talked about winning as most important, but now they are talking about ROI for winning which sounds so much more short sighted.  "Yeah, you could get that guy, but does that really mean anything?"  It's words they used before.  Everyone trusts these owners but I'm not seeing it.

 

 

There are different views of impatience.  I don't trust these owners to try for constant winning.  I think they are going to look at money and winning:  "We didn't win the Cup, so losing any amount of money isn't tolerable" is short sighted.  It's amazing how you guys have just bought into these owners so quickly.

 

 

To first quote - I think what they're saying (and has been said by others) is that we don't want to make a huge investment in an aging player if he is not going to make us demonstrably better. This is basically saying, we won't give up a ton for a guy like Phil Kessel or we won't give someone like Ryane Clowe 5/$25.

 

To the second quote - The aforementioned Ryane Clowe is a carte blanche move. Mike Cammalleri is a carte blanche move. The "bargain basement" guys were all inexpensive low risk gambles that a team in the Devils position have to make. They don't have the youth to fill those roles and the UFA market wasn't strong enough (or the right way to go) to fill them with better players. The only time I think Lou had an issue with the Cap or with insufficient funds was surrounding Kovalchuk's contract and what it caused from Parise's standpoint and a diminished roster because they were up against it. Even with JVB panhandling on Lafayette st, they still added salary and were always around the Cap.

 

To the third quote - I think they're well aware that without a long playoff run, the team itself is likely an overall losing venture. But the arena and the team's value are where there is profit to be made. Even if they don't sell the team (Harris has said he's in it for the long haul but who the hell knows), if it's value goes up to say, $600MM, that's value they can leverage and borrow against to make other investments. Simply put, they're going to be smart and I get the sense everything they're saying is trying to say "we could very well suck for the next 3 years but we'll build towards something. meanwhile, while we're sucking, perhaps we won't lose as much money as we might have if we sucked with older more expensive guys."

 

Everyone's blueprint these days is the Blackhawks. Well look at their past. Starting in 89-90 (years before losing records consistently got you into the playoffs) they made the playoffs 8 straight years and made it to the finals once. Then comes 10 fvcking years of ineptitude with one playoff appearance. During that time, they had a pretty awful farm system - overpaid for terrible older players and basically just spun their wheels. Then 2002's draft happens and they start with Duncan Keith. The slow rebuild begins. Over the next 10 Years they add 13 players that are still above average to excellent NHL'ers that are still on the team or were traded for other contributors. That's time and investment. That's what Harris and Blitzer are telling people that it just might take.

[BostonNala370]

So Lou didn't spend a sh!t ton when he was winning cups?  Sure not Rangers, but he was definitely above what would be "the cap" at that time.

 

It's hard to put anything up on either side right now because we don't know where to go.  Some people put their trust in Lou (me and Will) some people put their trust in ownership (place name here).  Neither side knows what they are critiquing so far yet and that is why you are on the sidelines.

 

Full of sound and fury signifying nothing.  It's nothing because we are waiting for facts to argue.  It'd be great to just have everything "formulated, sprawling on a pin" (in your poetic sense) but we won't have that for years because not even Harris or Shero have those answers.  I know everyone will call me archaic or "knowing the devil you do know than the one you don't" by saying I wish Lou were around, but I don't.  I just want a unified path.  Let the owners own, the GM manage, the coaches coach, and the players play.  Lou used to have that down (except maybe the coaches coach).  But I just don't like hearing the owners take another hat just because they have some numbers that justify it.  Maybe it means something to laymen, but it can mean more to others that know the game.

You need to accept change, Lou's way failed the last few years. So now there is change.

[BostonNala370]

You are aware they bought the 76ers for under $300 million in what is the last great bargain in North American Professional Sports.  A year and a half later the Clippers were sold for a billiion, and the least valuable franchise in the NBA (Milwaukee) sold for $550 million. Now the Hawks are to be sold for $850 million. If Harris and Blitzer put the 76ers up for sale, they would make over $550 million profit in a little over 3 years.

Without a wining team.

[Jerseydevils0324]

I'm happy about the spending and return on investment comments. Do we really want Shero to go out this summer and throw insane money at plugs like Beleskey or Stafford? Let the Rangers, Flyers, or anyone else do that, please.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Jerseydevils0324

[BostonNala370]

This thread is about getting a Devils coach. It would appear that Oates is out. He wasn't mentioned in an article yesterday about contenders and he is interviewing with the Sharks. Shero probably told him No way.

I'm happy about the spending and return on investment comments. Do we really want Shero to go out this summer and throw insane money at plugs like Beleskey or Stafford? Let the Rangers, Flyers, or anyone else do that, please.

No, we have seem that from Lou what did it get us?

[themightyall]

You need to accept change, Lou's way failed the last few years. So now there is change.

 

So when I say, "I know everyone will call me archaic or "knowing the devil you do know than the one you don't" by saying I wish Lou were around, but I don't.  I just want a unified path."  How is that not accepting change.  I'd say a lot of people on here are enamored with these owners' business acumen and are blinding yourselves to what they are doing wrong. 

 

To first quote - I think what they're saying (and has been said by others) is that we don't want to make a huge investment in an aging player if he is not going to make us demonstrably better. This is basically saying, we won't give up a ton for a guy like Phil Kessel or we won't give someone like Ryane Clowe 5/$25.

 

To the second quote - The aforementioned Ryane Clowe is a carte blanche move. Mike Cammalleri is a carte blanche move. The "bargain basement" guys were all inexpensive low risk gambles that a team in the Devils position have to make. They don't have the youth to fill those roles and the UFA market wasn't strong enough (or the right way to go) to fill them with better players. The only time I think Lou had an issue with the Cap or with insufficient funds was surrounding Kovalchuk's contract and what it caused from Parise's standpoint and a diminished roster because they were up against it. Even with JVB panhandling on Lafayette st, they still added salary and were always around the Cap.

 

To the third quote - I think they're well aware that without a long playoff run, the team itself is likely an overall losing venture. But the arena and the team's value are where there is profit to be made. Even if they don't sell the team (Harris has said he's in it for the long haul but who the hell knows), if it's value goes up to say, $600MM, that's value they can leverage and borrow against to make other investments. Simply put, they're going to be smart and I get the sense everything they're saying is trying to say "we could very well suck for the next 3 years but we'll build towards something. meanwhile, while we're sucking, perhaps we won't lose as much money as we might have if we sucked with older more expensive guys."

 

Everyone's blueprint these days is the Blackhawks. Well look at their past. Starting in 89-90 (years before losing records consistently got you into the playoffs) they made the playoffs 8 straight years and made it to the finals once. Then comes 10 fvcking years of ineptitude with one playoff appearance. During that time, they had a pretty awful farm system - overpaid for terrible older players and basically just spun their wheels. Then 2002's draft happens and they start with Duncan Keith. The slow rebuild begins. Over the next 10 Years they add 13 players that are still above average to excellent NHL'ers that are still on the team or were traded for other contributors. That's time and investment. That's what Harris and Blitzer are telling people that it just might take.

 

So we went on this board from being ok with a few year rebuild to now 10 years?!  The team is not that bad.  If that's what they are trying to brace for, at what point can I see others bring up the Sixers?

[DevsMan84]

So when I say, "I know everyone will call me archaic or "knowing the devil you do know than the one you don't" by saying I wish Lou were around, but I don't.  I just want a unified path."  How is that not accepting change.  I'd say a lot of people on here are enamored with these owners' business acumen and are blinding yourselves to what they are doing wrong. 

 

 

So we went on this board from being ok with a few year rebuild to now 10 years?!  The team is not that bad.  If that's what they are trying to brace for, at what point can I see others bring up the Sixers?

 

Yes they are.  Minus Schneider they would be bottom 3 team.  This group is just awful and this will take a few years.  Whether that means 3 years or 10 years, so be it.  I just want this team to be good, but also good for a while.

 

Again comparing the Devils to the Sixers is comparing apples to oranges.  It's a lousy comparison.

[Triumph]

So when I say, "I know everyone will call me archaic or "knowing the devil you do know than the one you don't" by saying I wish Lou were around, but I don't.  I just want a unified path."  How is that not accepting change.  I'd say a lot of people on here are enamored with these owners' business acumen and are blinding yourselves to what they are doing wrong.

 

 

 

I don't think they're doing anything wrong, so I guess you're right.  Also Lou is around.  He still works for the team.  

 

So we went on this board from being ok with a few year rebuild to now 10 years?!  The team is not that bad.  If that's what they are trying to brace for, at what point can I see others bring up the Sixers?

 

They're not bracing for that and sundstrom expressed himself poorly there.  The Blackhawks' rebuild didn't take 10 years, although it did take them being garbage for a long time to finally get themselves out of the sewer - that's because of bad management and worse ownership - they left a guy in charge who the owner liked but who was out of touch, then kicked him upstairs to be President.  Duncan Keith was drafted in 2002, the Blackhawks made the playoffs for the first time after their rebuild in 2009.  That's what it might take for the Devils - Severson drafted in 2012, Devils take until 2019 to make it back to the playoffs.  The team IS that bad - they weren't good, and almost all their best players are now over 30 years old.

[sundstrom]

 

They're not bracing for that and sundstrom expressed himself poorly there.  The Blackhawks' rebuild didn't take 10 years, although it did take them being garbage for a long time to finally get themselves out of the sewer - that's because of bad management and worse ownership - they left a guy in charge who the owner liked but who was out of touch, then kicked him upstairs to be President.  Duncan Keith was drafted in 2002, the Blackhawks made the playoffs for the first time after their rebuild in 2009.  That's what it might take for the Devils - Severson drafted in 2012, Devils take until 2019 to make it back to the playoffs.  The team IS that bad - they weren't good, and almost all their best players are now over 30 years old.

 

 

What the Devils have that the Hawks didn't is Schneider. A top 5 goaltender can get you there quicker. Also, I'd perhaps start the clock with Larsson, not severson as far as being consistently good. I would be shocked if it takes the devils 5 years to get back to the playoffs at least once. Schneider could essentially do it himself with some shooting luck.

[DJ Eco]

So we went on this board from being ok with a few year rebuild to now 10 years?!  The team is not that bad.  If that's what they are trying to brace for, at what point can I see others bring up the Sixers?

 

Maybe a bit of exaggeration re: it taking 10 years (or maybe not?), but just compare the two soundbytes:

 

Lou Lamoriello, April 2015: "I think we are two top-6 forwards from being a playoff team."

Owners, May 2015: "I don't want us to just be a playoff team, I want to set us up to be contenders."

 

Our team IS "that bad", and Lou is wrong and the owners are right; there's really nothing to argue there. Like Triumph said, without Schneider, we are Buffalo/Edmonton-bad.

[Triumph]

What the Devils have that the Hawks didn't is Schneider. A top 5 goaltender can get you there quicker. Also, I'd perhaps start the clock with Larsson, not severson as far as being consistently good. I would be shocked if it takes the devils 5 years to get back to the playoffs at least once. Schneider could essentially do it himself with some shooting luck.

 

The issue is that Schneider may not be all that good by the time the Devils get around to doing well.

[themightyall]

Maybe a bit of exaggeration re: it taking 10 years (or maybe not?), but just compare the two soundbytes:

 

Lou Lamoriello, April 2015: "I think we are two top-6 forwards from being a playoff team."

Owners, May 2015: "I don't want us to just be a playoff team, I want to set us up to be contenders."

 

Our team IS "that bad", and Lou is wrong and the owners are right; there's really nothing to argue there. Like Triumph said, without Schneider, we are Buffalo/Edmonton-bad.

 

Since when can we just select players out of the team/poach statistics and hypotheticals?  Can I add players then?  If we just add Crosby to the team, we'd be a contender.

 

Sure if we roll out a team with one RW you can say that but it's the end of the season.  We were the 6th worst team in the league so that is how bad we are presently.  But you know what comes next?  The offseason where trades and signings and drafting happens.  Players mature.  Everyone looks at what this team is and are doom and gloom.  If the owners let Shero do his job, I expect a better team and that is what you guys should be thinking about.  Yes, they are bad now but stop wallowing in it.  We do have Schneider, so don't throw him out and talk about how much worse we would be without him or how in ten years he'll be 39 and no longer good.  We have a very good D pipeline, I'd say that in 3 years we could have the best team outside our forwards with the present players alone.  Obviously we need a team, not a part of one though.  Shero is going to make his trades, sign his players and draft his prospects.  We need better and that's his job:  to make this team better.  Let him do his job.  I want to see progress for this team every year, they shouldn't be treading water at the shallow end to gain "assets".

[devilsrule33]

The issue is that Schneider may not be all that good by the time the Devils get around to doing well.

 

That's why that "great" trade might hurt the franchise more than it helps. 9th pick in 2013, and perhaps a top 3 pick in 2015 is probably better than Schneider and the 7th, especially when you consider what you just said. The Devils may not be a good team when Schneider is still good, and Schneider probably stops the Devils from getting a top 3 pick unless they win the lottery.

[Devilsfan118]

That's why that "great" trade might hurt the franchise more than it helps. 9th pick in 2013, and perhaps a top 3 pick in 2015 is probably better than Schneider and the 7th, especially when you consider what you just said. The Devils may not be a good team when Schneider is still good, and Schneider probably stops the Devils from getting a top 3 pick unless they win the lottery.

I talked about this earlier in the season as well.. Ironically, one of Lou's 'better' deals will probably end up hurting the Devils in the long run.

You'd have a hard time convincing me we wouldn't be picking top 3 this season without Cory's freakishly good goaltending.

[Triumph]

I talked about this earlier in the season as well.. Ironically, one of Lou's 'better' deals will probably end up hurting the Devils in the long run.

You'd have a hard time convincing me we wouldn't be picking top 3 this season without Cory's freakishly good goaltending.

 

This would be after a season where the Devils would've been totally sunk AND would've not had a first round draft pick - a complete disaster which may have resulted in Lou's firing.

[BostonNala370]

We need to put Lou behind us, It's over, he is done.

 

He was great in the past but failed the last  5 years.

 

Thanksfully we have the owners that won't put up with more of his decisons.

 

Love you Lou, but it's time, it has been for three years.