GDT: Buffalo @ Devils

[SterioDesign]

It's not an excuses, guy. Please let me know what GM's sell off assets while in the midst of playoff runs. It's rare if it happens at all.

Yeah hes successes do have a similar core, you know, because he assembled it.

I'm not a Kool aid drinker. I have plenty of things I don't like about Lou. I just don't bring them into EVERY SINGLE THREAD.

The record. It's broken.

 

First most GMs do no wait to sign core players or wait for the deadline to gauge the situation, they sign them to extensions before they are stuck in a corner. The draft or free agency the summer prior is a good timing, as i mentionned often the Pens did a wonderful job with Staal and Letang. THATS the perfect scenario. 

 

Assets that's another thing. Clowe got traded for example, and it's not about doing it or not based on the situation. Lou will simply not even think about what the right move is for each assets. he'll just go all out and gamble it all. Thats what i hate about him. 

 

if by now you don't get that, i can deal with one bad gamble, every single GM does it. With Lou there's no debate. Its black on white all out. and its biting us in the ass right more than ever. Its all because of that. He's NOT making a decision. he's just being stubborn 

 

You guys keep acting like our situation was inevitable and that it's just a certain situation that made it what it is. It's not. Even before the whole Zach thing i was posting about how i hated how Lou was deadling with free agent and that he was running assets to the ground. You guys were just saying it didnt matter that we were good and bla bla bla... look now. All out of assets and lost a bunch of guys on the market. Im not saying i know everything but it's weird that i called it before all that right? simply based on the way Lou handled things.

 

I dont expect you guys to give me any credits or admit i could be right though.

Edited January 7, 2015 by SterioDesign

[NJDevs4978]

Yeah but Ryane Clowe, DD. Douglas Murray. Never mind that every other playoff bound team keeps their UFAs 95% of the time (or trades for some themselves). Ryane Clowe. Doug Murray.

And I was just about to say then SD will bring up Staal and Letang and how Shero was decisive, that's how predictable his arguments are.

Never mind the fact they 'could' have won another Cup with Staal that year or that Shero made other 'go for it' deals.

Edited January 7, 2015 by NJDevs4978

[Devil Dan 56]

First most GMs do no wait to sign core players or wait for the deadline to gauge the situation, they sign them to extensions before they are stuck in a corner. The draft or free agency the summer prior is a good timing, as i mentionned often the Pens did a wonderful job with Staal and Letang. THATS the perfect scenario. 

 

Assets that's another thing. Clowe got traded for example, and it's not about doing it or not based on the situation. Lou will simply not even think about what the right move is for each assets. he'll just go all out and gamble it all. Thats what i hate about him. 

 

if by now you don't get that, i can deal with one bad gamble, every single GM does it. With Lou there's no debate. Its black on white all out. and its biting us in the ass right more than ever. Its all because of that. He's NOT making a decision. he's just being stubborn 

 

You guys keep acting like our situation was inevitable and that it's just a certain situation that made it what it is. It's not. Even before the whole Zach thing i was posting about how i hated how Lou was deadling with free agent and that he was running assets to the ground. You guys were just saying it didnt matter that we were good and bla bla bla... look now. All out of assets and lost a bunch of guys on the market. Im not saying i know everything but it's weird that i called it before all that right? simply based on the way Lou handled things.

 

I dont expect you guys to give me any credits or admit i could be right though.

 

Tri and NJD4978 already got to your tired argument before you did. You operate in nearly total hindsight, and you pick small examples while ignoring the overall. Like pointing out Clowe and ignoring the thousand times teams DIDN'T sell off assets heading to the playoffs. 

 

Once again, its easy to give up Staal when you have him has your 3rd center behind two of the most gifted centers of the current generation. 

 

Lou has rarely been out of the race at the deadline. When he was, he traded off Arnott and Langenbrunner. So, you're wrong on that one. 

 

The situation IS inevitable. All teams with highs eventually have lows. You hold on to players in the interest of winning a Cup. You know, that reason that players play and teams exist? That's the ultimate goal. That's why you hold on to a guy like Zach and hope things work out later. Otherwise, you just keep trading assets, drafting new talent, and trading it again for picks in an endless cycle of nothing. So don't hurt anything patting your self on the back there. 

[SterioDesign]

Tri and NJD4978 already got to your tired argument before you did. You operate in nearly total hindsight, and you pick small examples while ignoring the overall. Like pointing out Clowe and ignoring the thousand times teams DIDN'T sell off assets heading to the playoffs. 

 

Once again, its easy to give up Staal when you have him has your 3rd center behind two of the most gifted centers of the current generation. 

 

Lou has rarely been out of the race at the deadline. When he was, he traded off Arnott and Langenbrunner. So, you're wrong on that one. 

 

The situation IS inevitable. All teams with highs eventually have lows. You hold on to players in the interest of winning a Cup. You know, that reason that players play and teams exist? That's the ultimate goal. That's why you hold on to a guy like Zach and hope things work out later. Otherwise, you just keep trading assets, drafting new talent, and trading it again for picks in an endless cycle of nothing. So don't hurt anything patting your self on the back there. 

 

Nop youre wrong. plain and simple wrong

 

Langenbrunner HAD to get traded because we were over the contract limit. Remember the mess Lou did that season? we played down a man because of his roster clusterfvck and Arnott ASKED to get traded.

 

And it's not about NOT trading players. if you want to keep those players. fvcking sign them then if you dont want to lose them and not trade them at the deadline. Why put yourself in a situation when you have absolutely no control ?

Edited January 7, 2015 by SterioDesign

[Devil Dan 56]

Nop youre wrong. plain and simple wrong

 

Langenbrunner HAD to get traded because we were over the contract limit. Remember the mess Lou did that season? we played down a man because of his roster clusterfvck and Arnott ASKED to get traded.

 

And it's not about NOT trading players. if you want to keep those players. fvcking sign them then if you dont want to lose them and not trade them at the deadline. Why put yourself in a situation when you have absolutely no control ?

 

Oh, so sign them like Stevens, Brodeur, Zajac, Henrique, and Schneider?

[SterioDesign]

Oh, so sign them like Stevens, Brodeur, Zajac, Henrique, and Schneider?

 

Precisely yes. 5 times in like 30 years. Thats obviously his #1 habit. 

 

So you're admitting that the way he handled "those" was the right way. But you won't admit he fvcked up with the other guys he lost for not doing it... i get it i get it

 

He didnt even talk with Clarkson about a contract during the season and once they got to numbers after he season he gave up on him even before the draft cause he wanted too much. How about figuring this out when you can still flip him for assets? And they missed the playoffs and he lost Clarkson and made a ridiculous desperate move signing Clowe to replace him to one of the worst contract in the last few years.

 

And he kept Fayne without talking to him too even though we were rotation a ridiculous 8 dmen all season, didnt really needed him them and still gambled to keep him thinking Fayne wouldnt look at other offers.

 

he fvcked up. 

Edited January 7, 2015 by SterioDesign

[Devils Pride 26]

Precisely yes. 5 times in like 30 years. Thats obviously his #1 habit.

So you're admitting that the way he handled "those" was the right way. But you won't admit he fvcked up with the other guys he lost for not doing it... i get it i get it

Those guys could've easily left and the other group stayed. It's business. Your point is invalid. Parise leaving wasn't black and white. You trade him you ditch the 2012 run, probably get a crappy return, and definitely miss out on signing him in the summer.

It's not like Parise told Lou at the trade deadline he was leaving. It was a 50/50 toss up. If a different decision was made by Parise, you wouldn't be crying about this all the time.

[SterioDesign]

Those guys could've easily left and the other group stayed. It's business. Your point is invalid. Parise leaving wasn't black and white. You trade him you ditch the 2012 run, probably get a crappy return, and definitely miss out on signing him in the summer.

It's not like Parise told Lou at the trade deadline he was leaving. It was a 50/50 toss up. If a different decision was made by Parise, you wouldn't be crying about this all the time.

 

I was always "crying" about the way Lou was doing business with free agents. Its simply a dumb way to do it. He was lucky in the past cause he had a good team and situation so players wanted to stay there. He never adjusted and now players see way greener grass elsewhere.

[Devil Dan 56]

Precisely yes. 5 times in like 30 years. Thats obviously his #1 habit. 

 

So you're admitting that the way he handled "those" was the right way. But you won't admit he fvcked up with the other guys he lost for not doing it... i get it i get it

 

He didnt even talk with Clarkson about a contract during the season and once they got to numbers after he season he gave up on him even before the draft cause he wanted too much. How about figuring this out when you can still flip him for assets? And they missed the playoffs and he lost Clarkson and made a ridiculous desperate move signing Clowe to replace him to one of the worst contract in the last few years.

 

And he kept Fayne without talking to him too even though we were rotation a ridiculous 8 dmen all season, didnt really needed him them and still gambled to keep him thinking Fayne wouldnt look at other offers.

 

he fvcked up. 

 

No, I'm not saying it was the right way because there is no certified "right way". I'm saying sometimes that happens and sometimes it doesn't because real life isn't 100% black and white. You don't always know in January what you will know in July. 

 

Those 5 guys he signed were guys they wanted to make a long term commitment to regardless of what played out in the season. Guys like Clarkson, Fayne, Martin, Gionta, etc, are guys that one season can change the prices of drastically. 

 

Its easy to look back and say "waaaa, he let Clarkson go" (btw, who gives a damn, it's Clarkson), but anyway it's easy to say that now. But they were in the playoff race at the deadline that year, so it made sense to hold on to him. You twist everything into your own reality but when Lou does something that you, who has slightly less credentials, thinks is "right", you call it luck anyway. 

 

You also ignore the crazy possibility that maybe no one wanted these players at the deadline?? Who is going to give up picks for a rental of Mark Fayne?!?!?

Edited January 7, 2015 by Devil Dan 56

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Stick to drawing and designing pretty pictures SD.  Every...fvcking...MEMBER on this board is fully aware of your flawed viewpoints re:  Lou.  Stop trying to convince everyone why you're "right".  You're not right...I know you can't see this, but your uber-simplistic black-and-white ways of looking at everything re:  Lou and the Devils is beyond absurd.  Good Lord, anyone who dares to punch holes in your viewpoints or doesn't fully or even partially agree with you isn't a fvcking Kool-Aid drinker by default.  Most of us have admitted that the last however many years haven't always been Lou's finest. 

 

Seriously, just STFU already about Lou and how you're the second fvcking coming of Kreskin.  I don't get into these debates with you anymore because it clogs threads and never leads anywhere, but it's long past time for you to recognize that you posting the same monochrome snivelly whiny crap you've been posting for God-knows long isn't going to sway anyone to join your side.  Your constant little digs and extended rants about Lou just suck at this point.     

[DevsMan84]

This is slowly turning into the best GDT ever

[Triumph]

The irony in this thread is heavy - at front, SD argues that I have no idea what's going to happen - who knows, the Sabres could finish ahead of the Devils - and at the back he suddenly knows that the Devils are going to not win the Stanley Cup in 2001 so they should consider trading Mogilny.

[Devil Dan 56]

The irony in this thread is heavy - at front, SD argues that I have no idea what's going to happen - who knows, the Sabres could finish ahead of the Devils - and at the back he suddenly knows that the Devils are going to not win the Stanley Cup in 2001 so they should consider trading Mogilny.

I think it was pretty obvious in March of 2001 that arguably the best Devils team ever put together was going to lose in the finals in 7 games. I would have traded all of those assets for picks.

[SterioDesign]

The irony in this thread is heavy - at front, SD argues that I have no idea what's going to happen - who knows, the Sabres could finish ahead of the Devils - and at the back he suddenly knows that the Devils are going to not win the Stanley Cup in 2001 so they should consider trading Mogilny.

 

Where did i suggested that? 

 

No, I'm not saying it was the right way because there is no certified "right way". I'm saying sometimes that happens and sometimes it doesn't because real life isn't 100% black and white. You don't always know in January what you will know in July. 

 

Those 5 guys he signed were guys they wanted to make a long term commitment to regardless of what played out in the season. Guys like Clarkson, Fayne, Martin, Gionta, etc, are guys that one season can change the prices of drastically. 

 

Its easy to look back and say "waaaa, he let Clarkson go" (btw, who gives a damn, it's Clarkson), but anyway it's easy to say that now. But they were in the playoff race at the deadline that year, so it made sense to hold on to him. You twist everything into your own reality but when Lou does something that you, who has slightly less credentials, thinks is "right", you call it luck anyway. 

 

You also ignore the crazy possibility that maybe no one wanted these players at the deadline?? Who is going to give up picks for a rental of Mark Fayne?!?!?

 

I dont twist anything, everything im "bashing" is all things i was already talking about before it happened. So there's no "now that it happened look".

 

and if you agree with me that there's no "right way"... then you should agree with me that Lou's way is not right cause he's not willing to adjust to situation it seems. It has to be his way that he's been doing his whole career or its not gonna fly. Hell even players came out and said it was frustrating. Elias is one of them. 

 

So yeah, Lou does things a certain way, im 100% against using one simple path to do everything without adjusting. And you guys were making excuses for him trying to justify that it was making sense, then the very very few times he went out of his way. You're telling me "SEE he signed Zajac before the season!" That after saying it was a dumb move to sign a player to early cause there's risk of injuries or wtv (that was one of the excuse people were backing Lou with)

 

so basically im not twisting anything. I've kept the same arguments all along, you guys are twisting things to make Lou's action "right" in your mind. This sh!t show we're looking at now is ALL Lou. 

Edited January 7, 2015 by SterioDesign

[Devil Dan 56]

Where did i suggested that? 

 

 

I dont twist anything, everything im "bashing" is all things i was already talking about before it happened. So there's no "now that it happened look".

 

and if you agree with me that there's no "right way"... then you should agree with me that Lou's way is not right cause he's not willing to adjust to situation it seems. It has to be his way that he's been doing his whole career or its not gonna fly. Hell even players came out and said it was frustrating. Elias is one of them. 

 

So yeah, Lou does things a certain way, im 100% against using one simply path to do everything without adjusting. And you guys were making excuses for him trying to justify that it was making sense, then the very very few times he went out of his way. You're telling me "SEE he signed Zajac before the season!" That after saying it was a dumb move to sign a player to early cause there's risk of injuries or wtv (that was one of the excuse people were backing Lou with)

 

so basically im not twisting anything. I've kept the same arguments all along, you guys are twisting things to make Lou's action "right" in your mind. This sh!t show we're looking at now is ALL Lou. 

 

How many contradictions are you going to squeeze into one post??

 

If there is "no right way" how is Lou's way automatically wrong?

 

"Lous is not willing to adjust" Then you reference Zajac. Those 2 ideas are in direct contradiction of each other. It's almost like Lou DOESN'T just have one way of dealing with things.... 

 

This sh!t show we are looking at is the result of 2 decades of winning. It's a necessary cycle. You know how Chicago and Pittsburgh got so much talent? They lost A LOT. For a long, long time. 

[Triumph]

You argued that Mogilny was a 'lost asset' and that it's 100% on Lou.  Signing players early back in 2001 wasn't often done - since the market was entirely unknowable ahead of time, it didn't make sense for players to sign early, and so often times they didn't.  In addition, teams received compensatory picks when they lost more UFAs than they signed, so the Devils received an additional 2nd round pick in 2002 for letting Mogilny go.  

[Zubie#8]

Good lord. This is still going on?

Edited January 7, 2015 by Zubie#8

[SterioDesign]

How many contradictions are you going to squeeze into one post??

 

If there is "no right way" how is Lou's way automatically wrong?

 

"Lous is not willing to adjust" Then you reference Zajac. Those 2 ideas are in direct contradiction of each other. It's almost like Lou DOESN'T just have one way of dealing with things.... 

 

This sh!t show we are looking at is the result of 2 decades of winning. It's a necessary cycle. You know how Chicago and Pittsburgh got so much talent? They lost A LOT. For a long, long time. 

 

are you serious. Lou did things the same way 99.8% of the time and it took ridiculous situations to make him sway from that and you're gonna tell me that he's adjusting all the time? And those situations happening right after he got his ass burned so fvcking bad and lost his captain and thought, well fvck, might want to get on the next on earlier or something. Lou said, agents said, TG said, players said, everyone said he doesnt want to talk contract during the season. When was the last time he extended a player during the season? There's timing and scenarios where it's a good time for some players, ALL the other teams does it, did the Ducks wait til after the season, they didnt have an ownership shot show going on of course, but they wouldnt have signed them to a 1 year deal either, thats where it was ridiculous. He doesnt want to do it (talk during the season even if he had to). How can you deny that he doesnt want to adjust. He signed a few players during the summer. Thats doesnt take away from me saying he refuses to deal with that stuff during the season if he'd have to. 

Edited January 7, 2015 by SterioDesign

[SterioDesign]

You argued that Mogilny was a 'lost asset' and that it's 100% on Lou.  Signing players early back in 2001 wasn't often done - since the market was entirely unknowable ahead of time, it didn't make sense for players to sign early, and so often times they didn't.  In addition, teams received compensatory picks when they lost more UFAs than they signed, so the Devils received an additional 2nd round pick in 2002 for letting Mogilny go.  

 

Yeah... so again of course im naming a BUNCH of players leaving in their prime. than adding 2 at the end saying those were not much of a big deal... and all you reply is focused 100% on those last 2 and ignore the rest... typical.

[Devil Dan 56]

are you serious. Lou did things the same way 99.8% of the time and it took ridiculous situations to make him sway from that and you're gonna tell me that he's adjusting all the time? And those situations happening right after he got his ass burned so fvcking bad and lost his captain and thought, well fvck, might want to get on the next on earlier or something. Lou said, agents said, TG said, players said, everyone said he doesnt want to talk contract during the season. When was the last time he extended a player during the season? There's timing and scenarios where it's a good time for some players, ALL the other teams does it, did the Ducks wait til after the season, they didnt have an ownership shot show going on of course, but they wouldnt have signed them to a 1 year deal either, thats where it was ridiculous. He doesnt want to do it (talk during the season even if he had to). How can you deny that he doesnt want to adjust. He signed a few players during the summer. Thats doesnt take away from me saying he refuses to deal with that stuff during the season if he'd have to. 

 

Brodeur and Stevens were both extended mid-season. That was before your favorite player left. Speaking of, Parise was supposedly offered a contract mid-season, and even confirmed that there was contact between Lou and his camp and said himself that Lou didn't wait until the last second. Lou has shown he makes exceptions when the situation calls for it. Those are 3 situations. Since the new CBA, which makes for more logical contracts, Lou has extended 4 players because they know they can't get a decades long deal on the market anymore. 

 

Also, those Ducks signings were both after the new CBA began, meaning they could get an extra year from Anaheim that they couldn't get anywhere else. 

 

As much as you suggest it, no one has claimed Lou is perfect or always right. Pretty much all of us can see what he's trying to do and understanding that not everything goes perfectly all the time, though. 

Yeah... so again of course im naming a BUNCH of players leaving in their prime. than adding 2 at the end saying those were not much of a big deal... and all you reply is focused 100% on those last 2 and ignore the rest... typical.

 

Name those players again. 

[Triumph]

Yeah... so again of course im naming a BUNCH of players leaving in their prime. than adding 2 at the end saying those were not much of a big deal... and all you reply is focused 100% on those last 2 and ignore the rest... typical.

 

It's the nature of the business.  The Devils couldn't keep all of these players - a lot of them were too expensive.  They couldn't trade them all either, that wouldn't've made a lot of sense.  I mean, the Sharks let Teemu Selanne walk, they traded Christian Ehrhoff for basically nothing, they traded Michalek and Cheechoo for Heatley, then traded Heatley for Havlat, then bought out Havlat, leaving them with zilch to show for those two guys.  They let Dan Boyle walk.  They got nothing for Brian Campbell - they even brought in a UFA to be (Campbell) for assets they had, and failed to resign him.  Let's not even talk about the Wings - a cursory look at the 2006-07 Wings team shows that not one of these players left the team for an asset in return.  Everyone either retired or left in free agency.

 

If the Devils had had more guys coming through the system, they might've been able to trade some players off in that manner.  They didn't, so they really couldn't.  Otherwise your team is just doomed to mediocrity, which seems like it's exactly what you hate the most.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Triumph

[William D'Aquila]

Knives out

catch the mouse

don't look down

[ATLL765]

SD, as always you're completely ignoring the context in which these players left.

Parise signed a 1 year deal so the team could evaluate him after his serious knee injury that forced him to miss an entire season. Then he left the next year after rejecting a competitive offer from Lou and saying he wanted to test the market. Trading him at the deadline would have surely scuttled any chance of the team going on the deep playoff run they did. The return would have likely been disappointing anyways.

Rafalski left for big money in Detroit. It would have been tough to match that deal and convince him to forego his childhood dream of playing for Detroit.

Gionta left to Montreal for more money than anyone seemed to think was reasonable. So I'm not sure why you're making it out to be a mistake that Lou let him walk.

Gomez left for a mega deal from the Rags. No way you can call losing him in FA a mistake by Lou.

Niedermayer left to play with his brother in Anaheim. It was said that he turned down a max contact from the Devils. What else could have been done there?

Martin also left for more money than anyone here was saying we should have offered him.

Kovy was an incredibly strange situation. Nothing Lou could do there and having him retire looks like it was the right decision long term anyways.

Clarkson left for nearly double the money he should have gotten and that was surely the right decision to let him walk. We were in the playoff picture at the deadline so trading him was a decision most GMs would have made.

You bring up Shero and how he handled some of his pending ufas, but you ignore the fact that he had players who could reasonably replace them. That's something that Lou didn't have and is what allowed Shero to play hardball.

You can't look at things as if they occurred in a vacuum. These decisions have consequences.

[Devil Dan 56]

Standing ovation for ATLL765. That was worded really well.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Devil Dan 56

[mfitz804]

Standing ovation for ATLL765. That was worded really well.

Agreed, but being more cynical, I'd say Parise's one year deal was also so he wasn't going into free agency coming off a season lost to a knee injury, AND he went home to play with his boyfriend Suter also. I do not believe he had any intention of staying.

I also don't believe the team gave him a 1 year, $6 million dollar deal for purposes of "evaluating" him, and if they could have locked him up long term at that time, they would have.

But that was not in the cards.