Steven M. Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I thought he was our best defenseman against the Caps. He shut down Ovechkin most of the game and never game him time and space to get off his wicked shot. He's a solid but not flashy d-man, something that every team needs. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I just at this moment in time can't imagine another team with a more solid d-corps that would utilize him as a top 4 guy as we are doing. I'm not saying he's not a good defenseman, but rather than at this moment, he would most likely be better suited as a 5-6 guy, not a 1-2 like he's being used now. I think he's an above average 3rd pairing guy, but I don't think he's better than that right now. In the future he may become a 3-4 guy, but I don't think he'll make it any better than that, do you? The sky's the limit for Fayne, imo. He can skate, he makes a good first pass, and he's good positionally. He's pretty much jumped into the NHL and goes up against the best the opponent has to offer. The other night, he's up against Ovechkin. On another team, Fayne might not have gotten a shot to play such difficult minutes right away, but he is quite good. And 2 years ago this time he was playing in Hockey East. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven M. Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I've been Fayne's biggest supporter in my family ... My Dad and Brother used to be so critical of him, but they're coming around too. He makes the correct play way more often than not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BelieveinBrodeur Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Young solid D-man. Like him way more then Tallinder. Seems to to our best Offensive D Man as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohms law Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 FYI: Mark Fayne sucks. Just tonight he had one bad giveaway, bobbled the play twice that I saw, and couldn't hit the net to save his life. The Criticisms are well deserved (and the stats offered here to defend him are poor stats to use in evaluating defensemen). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 FYI: Mark Fayne sucks. Just tonight he had one bad giveaway, bobbled the play twice that I saw, and couldn't hit the net to save his life. The Criticisms are well deserved (and the stats offered here to defend him are poor stats to use in evaluating defensemen). Yeah, the fact that he is matched against the other team's best when at home and comes out slightly ahead - that's a poor way to evaluate defensemen. No doubt you've come up with a better way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarpathianForest Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Mark Fayne was an emergency call up last season and has had a steep learning curve. Chew on this: Adam Larsson has more experience playing professional hockey than Mark Fayne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nessus Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Yeah, he is quickly becoming the most reliable defenseman on the team, in my opinion. He plays like a veteran and rarely makes the wrong decision. I'll admit tonight wasn't a great game for him, but every other night, he's quite possibly our best defenseman. I really wonder what type of player he will be a year or two from now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefiestygoat Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 FYI: Mark Fayne sucks. Just tonight he had one bad giveaway, bobbled the play twice that I saw, and couldn't hit the net to save his life. The Criticisms are well deserved (and the stats offered here to defend him are poor stats to use in evaluating defensemen). What stats would you prefer? Also using 1 game is a real small sample size and using a game like tonight would make any Devils defensemen look bad - they got demolished in possession. The Devils were lucky to get a point out of the game. Its easy to nitpick on a game to game, play to play basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohms law Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) What stats would you prefer? Also using 1 game is a real small sample size and using a game like tonight would make any Devils defensemen look bad - they got demolished in possession. The Devils were lucky to get a point out of the game. Its easy to nitpick on a game to game, play to play basis. I've been watching his blocks, giveaways, takeaways, and TOI (which he's been receiving a lot of) all season long... but, really, I've just been watching him. Here's the thing; I'm a die hear sabermatrician, so the arguments about quantitative measurements and lessening reliance on opinions really hit home. And, he's certainly improved since October (which is easy, since he couldn't have been worse in October). It's just... we're talking about hockey, which is a terrible sport to attempt to model statistically, and what's worse is that were talking about a defenseman, which makes the majority of stats utterly useless. Corsi is a passable stat to use in order to get a feel for forwards, but it's a horrendous stat to evaluate defensemen with, especially defensemen who are supposed to have an offensive touch like Fayne is. It totally skews what happens from all of those missed shots from the point, and it completely misses the breakout pass problems that is a huge part of Fayne's game as is one of the biggest areas where he's been hurting us this season. Interestingly, I think he actually had a better game than usual last night. But, whatever. He's supposed to be super-talented or something, so I don't realistically expect to change anyone's opinion. A couple of people who are Fayne supporters seem to be the more outspoken critics of Tallinder (based on one big giveaway that lead to a shorthanded goal, as far as I can tell), which is just silly to me. Edited January 3, 2012 by ohms law Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevsMan84 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I've been watching his blocks, giveaways, takeaways, and TOI (which he's been receiving a lot of) all season long... but, really, I've just been watching him. Here's the thing; I'm a die hear sabermatrician, so the arguments about quantitative measurements and lessening reliance on opinions really hit home. And, he's certainly improved since October (which is easy, since he couldn't have been worse in October). It's just... we're talking about hockey, which is a terrible sport to attempt to model statistically, and what's worse is that were talking about a defenseman, which makes the majority of stats utterly useless. Corsi is a passable stat to use in order to get a feel for forwards, but it's a horrendous stat to evaluate defensemen with, especially defensemen who are supposed to have an offensive touch like Fayne is. It totally skews what happens from all of those missed shots from the point, and it completely misses the breakout pass problems that is a huge part of Fayne's game as is one of the biggest areas where he's been hurting us this season. Interestingly, I think he actually had a better game than usual last night. But, whatever. He's supposed to be super-talented or something, so I don't realistically expect to change anyone's opinion. A couple of people who are Fayne supporters seem to be the more outspoken critics of Tallinder (based on one big giveaway that lead to a shorthanded goal, as far as I can tell), which is just silly to me. Please point to a single post here where someone is saying that he is or supposed to be super-talented. I see a lot of saying he is solid and above average, but no one here is making him out to be the next Lidstrom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohms law Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Please point to a single post here where someone is saying that he is or supposed to be super-talented. I see a lot of saying he is solid and above average, but no one here is making him out to be the next Lidstrom. Here you go: Yeah, he is quickly becoming the most reliable defenseman on the team, in my opinion. He plays like a veteran and rarely makes the wrong decision. I'll admit tonight wasn't a great game for him, but every other night, he's quite possibly our best defenseman. I really wonder what type of player he will be a year or two from now. There's others, but nessus was kind enough to oblige to your request just before you asked it! You'd think he was the second coming of Paul Coffee or Scott Niedermayer, to hear some of you guys in this thread tell it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevsMan84 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) Here you go: There's others, but nessus was kind enough to oblige to your request just before you asked it! You'd think he was the second coming of Paul Coffee or Scott Niedermayer, to hear some of you guys in this thread tell it. Haha That is a terrible example and weak one at best and you know it. Saying he is becoming our most reliable defenseman on the team does not in any way shape or form equates someone saying he is the next coffey. That is just your interpretation that is warped by your hatred of him Edited January 3, 2012 by DevsMan84 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohms law Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I don't hate him. That' just your warped interpretation from being overly fond of the guy. I don't get the where the "most reliable" impression is coming from at all, though. Actually, I suspect that it's more from who he's been paired with rather than his own play, but I'm not a mind reader so who knows. If reliability is what's actually important, then we should be talking about Salvadore (of course, he's the stay at home type, so people only really see him on TV in situations where we can get hurt... that's the only explanation I can come up with for people bashing him, at least. Well, that and apparently we have the worst defense corp in the history of the game right now.) Honestly, I think we have too many "puck-moving" or "offensive" defensemen all of a sudden. Adding Larsson to the mix put us over the top, since now the Devils have Larsson, Greene (who will be back... eventually), Fayne, and Taormina, along with Tallinder and Foster who are somewhere in between "stay at home" and "offensive". Not having enough of these guys was a big problem a couple seasons ago, but it seems that the Devils have fixed that whole situation in a hurry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) It's just... we're talking about hockey, which is a terrible sport to attempt to model statistically, and what's worse is that were talking about a defenseman, which makes the majority of stats utterly useless. Corsi is a passable stat to use in order to get a feel for forwards, but it's a horrendous stat to evaluate defensemen with, especially defensemen who are supposed to have an offensive touch like Fayne is. It totally skews what happens from all of those missed shots from the point, and it completely misses the breakout pass problems that is a huge part of Fayne's game as is one of the biggest areas where he's been hurting us this season. What? How does it miss breakout pass problems? If you have a bad breakout, it's more likely that the other team will be making the next shot attempt. Corsi doesn't miss that at all. I don't really consider hitting the net for defensemen that repeatable a skill among guys who have 1 shot on goal per game like Fayne does, but if someone can filter out arena bias and show me that it is, I'll believe it. I imagine for someone taking only 120 shot attempts that there's going to be a decent amount of year to year variation (and things like e.g. a shot that deflects off a player and is still a shot on goal versus a shot that hits off a player and goes wide). I will also not believe that things like missed shots on goal are detectable via the eye test. Edited January 3, 2012 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohms law Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 well, I know that you think Corsi is a good stat. I think it's deceptive, at best. We're not going to convince each other to change opinions, so I'm not going to even try. There is: Corsi Numbers, which I saw relatively recently, that has a passable, uh... refutation (I guess) of Corsi, but... What I do find a bit odd is that yourself and others who like citing corsi stats in support of Fayne, would and are saying things like "I don't really consider hitting the net for defensemen that repeatable a skill...". I agree completely with the idea expressed there, which makes me wonder why corsi is being held up as something to look at. It's all a bit strange, to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 well, I know that you think Corsi is a good stat. I think it's deceptive, at best. We're not going to convince each other to change opinions, so I'm not going to even try. There is: Corsi Numbers, which I saw relatively recently, that has a passable, uh... refutation (I guess) of Corsi, but... Haha, that's a terrible refutation. What I do find a bit odd is that yourself and others who like citing corsi stats in support of Fayne, would and are saying things like "I don't really consider hitting the net for defensemen that repeatable a skill...". I agree completely with the idea expressed there, which makes me wonder why corsi is being held up as something to look at. It's all a bit strange, to me. I don't really understand your meaning here. I don't like Corsi much myself and use Fenwick whenever possible. The reason why I like Fenwick over shots % is two-fold - it's a larger sample, and it ferrets out a decent part of arena bias in shot counting. Inducing missed shots isn't a skill at the team level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohms law Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Haha, that's a terrible refutation. Now you're just being obstinate! hehe No, seriously, I know what you're saying with "I don't really understand your meaning here." We seem to have slightly different paradigms here. Oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouse Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 There's others, but nessus was kind enough to oblige to your request just before you asked it! You'd think he was the second coming of Paul Coffee or Scott Niedermayer, to hear some of you guys in this thread tell it. Saying he's the most reliable player on our crappy defense isn't saying he's a superstar. He's a second pairing guy, who should be for a long time. That he's playing our toughest minutes is a testament to the youth/mediocrity of our blue line. IMO he's still a little behind Tallinder, but those 2 are head and shoulders above the rest (though neither has Larsson's upside). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarpathianForest Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Now you're just being obstinate! hehe No, seriously, I know what you're saying with "I don't really understand your meaning here." We seem to have slightly different paradigms here. Oh well. Fayne has done very well for a guy who had only 16 AHL games under his belt before being called up to the big time. I don't know why you don't see that. In my opinion, that fact and the fact that he gets monster minutes that only some of your most veteran D gets throws stats out the window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohms law Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Saying he's the most reliable player on our crappy defense isn't saying he's a superstar. He's a second pairing guy, who should be for a long time. That he's playing our toughest minutes is a testament to the youth/mediocrity of our blue line. IMO he's still a little behind Tallinder, but those 2 are head and shoulders above the rest (though neither has Larsson's upside). He's a 5th or 6th defenseman at best, who's still got a ton to learn. The second pairing thing comes from exactly what you said: "our crappy defense" Fayne has done very well for a guy who had only 16 AHL games under his belt before being called up to the big time. I don't know why you don't see that. In my opinion, that fact and the fact that he gets monster minutes that only some of your most veteran D gets throws stats out the window. This is the problem. We need him on the NHL team, and the Devils are historically a powerhouse on defense, so therefore he must be great. It's selection bias, pure and simple. In the meantime, he's been costing us turnovers all season, most of which lead directly to goals (last nights bad pass leading to a givaway and a short handed goal against being the most recent example). So, yea... you guys go right ahead hoping that he's a great player. Maybe in 3-4 seasons he will be... maybe. In the meantime, he sucks. Life goes on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nessus Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 For the record, I do not think Fayne is a superstar. In fact, I'm not even sure how high his ceiling is. Thank you to those who defended my initial post. Anyway, any solution you have in mind, V=IR? It's the Devils' reputation to have a great defense, but that just isn't so right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohms law Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) I'd say quit playing him so much, but Greene is still hurt, so... *shrug* Tao is doing ok. If there's a deal to be had (which there isn't, especially not a quantity for quality type of deal, and even more importantly any deal for a top 4 defenseman, who are rarer than gold in the league right now.) then I'd make it, if it were up to me. In the meantime, Fayne isn't getting any praise from me. Edited January 4, 2012 by ohms law Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) He's a 5th or 6th defenseman at best, who's still got a ton to learn. The second pairing thing comes from exactly what you said: "our crappy defense" He's not, and he's not. This is the problem. We need him on the NHL team, and the Devils are historically a powerhouse on defense, so therefore he must be great. It's selection bias, pure and simple. That's totally idiotic. Are you trolling? The Devils are one of the best teams at preventing shots on goal. I wouldn't call them a powerhouse on defense necessarily, but they play good D. So, yea... you guys go right ahead hoping that he's a great player. Maybe in 3-4 seasons he will be... maybe.In the meantime, he sucks. Life goes on. Right, because you say so, with no evidence at all. He's outplaying Andy Greene right now. He's outplaying Anton Volchenkov right now. Edited January 4, 2012 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohms law Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) nope I'd say more, but... it's not that important. You (and others) have your opinions, and I've got mine. And, you're opinions aren't convincing. Sorry. None of us have any actual input about these things anyway, so... meh Edited January 4, 2012 by ohms law Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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