How many Devils fans that post here are following Lou in Toronto?

[Devilsfan118]

PK is not another example why this place has lost a lot of posters, etc..  You, and many other posters, have no idea how to understand her or anyone else for the most part. The atmosphere is that of the crude, non respectful, and "entitled is my right and agree with or risk the wrath of the newer generation" being the more reason for lack of traffic imo. The abuse some posters get is awful. I expect that folks will take a shot at me regarding my age and my "nostalgia."  It is what you <plural> do best,

 

I'm not going to hurl 'abuse' at you, but I will say - when I think of posters here that complain about the "old guard" it's mostly you and Pepperkorn.. and it's not even close.  Everyone else seems to mostly enjoy their time here..

 

What is a recent example of this 'abuse' you speak of?  If you point to BB (WD'A) I'm going to chuckle - if case you haven't noticed, discussion here has been 1000x better since his troll account(s) was banned.  We're a passionate bunch here, and disagreements are going to happen.. it's an online forum.  This place is a whole lot better than other forums I frequent.. I don't know if your online experience is limited or something but it doesn't get much better than here for Devils discussion.  Wander over to hfboards or the Devils' facebook group and take a look around to see the other side of the spectrum.

 

And every time I've seen you post in any topic besides those on the OT board, it's pretty much to complain about other people here.  I mean, that's just my impression, I could be totally wrong.  But you, along with PK, do seem like the most likely to complain.  I've got nothing against you two but I mean.. maybe this place just isn't worth frequenting anymore for you guys/gals?

Edited August 17, 2015 by Devilsfan118

[SterioDesign]

To me so far with Shero so far he made all the right moves and that's all i wanted to see. 

 

If a move pan out or not. Thats often out of the GM's hands and actually why Shero was fired from Pittsburgh. He had a great team on paper and made all the moves he had to but the team didnt perform. That Crosby and Malkin stopped producing in the playoffs, that's not on him.

 

I mean there's moves like anything the Bruins did recently... really seems to be bad moves from the get go so really i don't expect results out of all those moves but again, it's the right move.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

PK is not another example why this place has lost a lot of posters, etc..  You, and many other posters, have no idea how to understand her or anyone else for the most part. The atmosphere is that of the crude, non respectful, and "entitled is my right and agree with or risk the wrath of the newer generation" being the more reason for lack of traffic imo. The abuse some posters get is awful. I expect that folks will take a shot at me regarding my age and my "nostalgia."  It is what you <plural> do best,

 

 

The bolded:  you're hardly one to talk.  Just take a look at page 5 of the thread below, in your responses to me and 4978...you couldn't have been more guilty of this (I'll just leave it at that): 

 

http://njdevs.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=133528&page=5

 

 

 

To me so far with Shero so far he made all the right moves and that's all i wanted to see. 

 

If a move pan out or not. Thats often out of the GM's hands and actually why Shero was fired from Pittsburgh. He had a great team on paper and made all the moves he had to but the team didnt perform. That Crosby and Malkin stopped producing in the playoffs, that's not on him.

 

I mean there's moves like anything the Bruins did recently... really seems to be bad moves from the get go so really i don't expect results out of all those moves but again, it's the right move.

 

 

Shero came into a relatively easy situation, and your first sentence sums up why...all he had to do was not make any duct-tape moves and get rid of some deadwood, and we'd all be happy...a large segment of this fanbase is probably never going to be as patient and forgiving as it is right now...the bar can't be set much lower (I have a feeling Lou might be getting some of this up in Toronto as well...don't know for sure).  But I agree that I think Shero is working well within the current framework of the team...he didn't try to make free agent splashes in a weak class, and on that count I am definitely thrilled. 

Edited August 17, 2015 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Triumph]

I'm not going to hurl 'abuse' at you, but I will say - when I think of posters here that complain about the "old guard" it's mostly you and Pepperkorn.. and it's not even close.  Everyone else seems to mostly enjoy their time here..

 

What is a recent example of this 'abuse' you speak of?  If you point to BB (WD'A) I'm going to chuckle - if case you haven't noticed, discussion here has been 1000x better since his troll account(s) was banned.  We're a passionate bunch here, and disagreements are going to happen.. it's an online forum.  This place is a whole lot better than other forums I frequent.. I don't know if your online experience is limited or something but it doesn't get much better than here for Devils discussion.  Wander over to hfboards or the Devils' facebook group and take a look around to see the other side of the spectrum.

 

And every time I've seen you post in any topic besides those on the OT board, it's pretty much to complain about other people here.  I mean, that's just my impression, I could be totally wrong.  But you, along with PK, do seem like the most likely to complain.  I've got nothing against you two but I mean.. maybe this place just isn't worth frequenting anymore for you guys/gals?

 

HFBoards's discussion is not good, but it seems like a much more civil place to me.  That's because it's heavily moderated.  

 

As someone who has been here since the beginning, this place was an oasis away from the basically unreadable message board over at nj.com/devils.  It was this weird thing that we were all doing, talking online about our favorite hockey team.  There were posters that were picked on, and posters who it was thought 'wow, this person's weird', but there wasn't quite the level of rancor that I see here now (but there was plenty of rancor elsewhere on the site - that old Politics forum, yeesh).  I think a bit of that is because the Devils were generally winning, but also because it was a novel thing to do, that you could open up your computer and see all of these different ideas coming at you.  Now talking online about anything is not a weird thing, and you can do it anywhere you like - attitudes towards online writing have changed because the environment has changed.  I feel like back then people were more interested in different perspectives since we were all these kinda strange people doing this kinda strange thing, and there wasn't an endless supply of material online.  Now in the days of Facebook and Twitter there is a never ending stream, and you can just delete someone you don't like, never having to interact with them again (and they you).  Or, if you don't do that, you have to scroll past your crazy uncle's rantings about Obama or Trump or whatever.  It's become banal, and so people's expectations for what they're going to see on a site like this have changed.  I'll admit I don't always read PK's posts but I usually enjoy them when I do, there's always something in there even if it's not necessarily about hockey.   Anyway, to me, that's what people are talking about when they're talking about what's missed about the old days.  There's some romanticism mixed in of course, but it felt more like a community - where weirdness would make you think 'Oh, that's just person X being person X', instead of 'I wish I never had to see any of Person X's posts ever again'.

 

We used to have more regular fans, people who were into the team but didn't know tons about hockey, they were just passionate about their favorite team.  There's still a few around - I wish there were more, but I wouldn't really interact with them much on the board, either, as my expectations for what a messasge board is have also changed.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Tri, re:  your last couple of sentences...I think that "regular" class of fans constituted a much higher percentage of the overall fanbase than it does now.  Back then (say up until the early 2000s), most fans went by what their eyes told them (obviously some eyes were able to see more and see better than others), and went with basic "classic" stats and day-after newspaper articles to try to quantify what they were seeing. 

 

Now you have a lot of different factions.  You have your advanced metric crowd who discuss hockey using different measures that many hockey fans still aren't familiar or comfortable with.  You have your hybrids who find the advanced numbers interesting but may not buy into them completely, or are still trying to understand exactly how they work.  You have those who still go with their eyes and have expanded their classic-stat base (now taking into account shots on goal, shooting%, ice-time, etc), much like the baseball fan who may not embrace sabermetrics, but have moved far beyond the batting average, HR, and RBI totals they used to endorse...they're advanced too, but in a different way.  And you still have your casual fans who aren't heavily into numbers but almost approach the experience from a "I call it like I see it" perspective, even if a variety of standard and advanced numbers suggest otherwise from what they're seeing.  And of course, the fact that these numbers are so much readily accessible now allows the "look deeper" classes to access info and find links to support whatever point(s) they're trying to make.

 

The playing field used to be more level...and now not only do you have these new "classes" of fans, but they don't always get along, and they can definitely clash hard.  Some of the advanced metric crowd acts like they're part of some club and almost seem to enjoy excluding those who aren't "in the know", instead of explaining what these relatively new measures mean (like PDO, Corsi, Fenwick)...that can make the more classic "eye guy" stat-oriented fan or more casual fan not want to speak up or suggest something for fear of being made to feel stupid (you've definitely been guilty of this at times).  And you have the casual fan who might say something like "Well Player X has scored 7 goals in his last 10 games, he must be playing great", while the advanced classic-stat guy will look a little further and say "Yeah, but he's done it on only 15 shots, he's just making the most of his limited opportunities, it's only a matter of time before he stops shooting almost 50%..."  I don't want to make sound like any one class is any better than the other.  People are looking at the game through so many different glasses now, more than they ever were. 

Edited August 17, 2015 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Triumph]

Tri, re:  your last couple of sentences...I think that "regular" class of fans constituted a much higher percentage of the overall fanbase than it does now.  Back then (say up until the early 2000s), most fans went by what their eyes told them (obviously some eyes were able to see more and see better than others), and went with basic "classic" stats and day-after newspaper articles to try to quantify what they were seeing. 

 

Now you have a lot of different factions.  You have your advanced metric crowd who discuss hockey using different measures that many hockey fans still aren't familiar or comfortable with.  You have your hybrids who find the advanced numbers interesting but may not buy into them completely, or are still trying to understand exactly how they work.  You have those who still go with their eyes and have expanded their classic-stat base (now taking into account shots on goal, shooting%, ice-time, etc), much like the baseball fan who may not embrace sabermetrics, but have moved far beyond the batting average, HR, and RBI totals they used to endorse...they're advanced too, but in a different way.  And you still have your casual fans who aren't heavily into numbers but almost approach the experience from a "I call it like I see it" perspective, even if a variety of standard and advanced numbers suggest otherwise from what they're seeing.  And of course, the fact that these numbers are so much readily accessible now allows the "look deeper" classes to access info and find links to support whatever point(s) they're trying to make.

 

The playing field used to be more level...and now not only do you have these new "classes" of fans, but they don't always get along, and they can definitely clash hard.  Some of the advanced metric crowd acts like they're part of some club and almost seem to enjoy excluding those who aren't "in the know", instead of explaining what these relatively new measures mean (like PDO, Corsi, Fenwick)...that can make the more classic "eye guy" stat-oriented fan or more casual fan not want to speak up or suggest something for fear of being made to feel stupid (you've definitely been guilty of this at times).  And you have the casual fan who might say something like "Well Player X has scored 7 goals in his last 10 games, he must be playing great", while the advanced classic-stat guy will look a little further and say "Yeah, but he's done it on only 15 shots, he's just making the most of his limited opportunities, it's only a matter of time before he stops shooting almost 50%..."  I don't want to make sound like any one class is any better than the other.  People are looking at the game through so many different glasses now, more than they ever were. 

 

I really don't think that advanced metrics people constitute a large or even small portion of the Devils' fanbase.  They are a vocal part of this board, but I mean, on here, it's what, me and a few other guys who are really into it, then a bunch of people who are familiar with it?  I'm not talking about that even.  I'm just talking about rah rah types that you said in your earlier post that you don't like.  I recognize why those people won't feel welcome here - e.g. if they're a Brodeur fan, just have them read one Brodeur thread from the last 3 years - but I definitely try not to interact with fans like that except on the level they enjoy the game at, because I get that not everyone is going to be into the stats and hacking up the game we love into numbers.  For an extreme example, I tried to never interact with that SatansDevils guy, I got that he was in his own world and I had my world and never will the twain meet.

 

I agree that there is more stratification of fan classes back in the day, basically you had three types then, people who knew the league and Devils well, people who knew the Devils but not the league, and people who were just fans of the Devils but who weren't really into the day to day, they had their favorite players but weren't into the nitty-gritty.  Now you have more because of the numbers, you have the numbers people (some of whom IME don't really know the league very well) thrown on top.  That changes things, but I feel like when I read over at HF, they have more of the rah rah fans these days.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Triumph

[adavid]

I guess I'm just a regular fan. But I stopped coming by some often simply because every thread generated into petty arguments. In fact, I think lamenting about petty arguments is the only time I do post anymore. Not that anyone cares. But just sayin. See you all in October!

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

I really don't think that advanced metrics people constitute a large or even small portion of the Devils' fanbase.  They are a vocal part of this board, but I mean, on here, it's what, me and a few other guys who are really into it, then a bunch of people who are familiar with it?  I'm not talking about that even.  I'm just talking about rah rah types that you said in your earlier post that you don't like.  I recognize why those people won't feel welcome here - e.g. if they're a Brodeur fan, just have them read one Brodeur thread from the last 3 years - but I definitely try not to interact with fans like that except on the level they enjoy the game at, because I get that not everyone is going to be into the stats and hacking up the game we love into numbers.  For an extreme example, I tried to never interact with that SatansDevils guy, I got that he was in his own world and I had my world and never will the twain meet.

 

I agree that there is more stratification of fan classes back in the day, basically you had three types then, people who knew the league and Devils well, people who knew the Devils but not the league, and people who were just fans of the Devils but who weren't really into the day to day, they had their favorite players but weren't into the nitty-gritty.  Now you have more because of the numbers, you have the numbers people (some of whom IME don't really know the league very well) thrown on top.  That changes things, but I feel like when I read over at HF, they have more of the rah rah fans these days.

 

The percentage of advanced metrics people isn't important...it's more the fact they actually exist now, and the number is slowly increasing (though I don't think it will ever be widespread...not for a long time, anyway).  It wasn't so long ago that that type of fan almost hadn't even been "invented" yet (though there's always been some here and there).  An invasive species in a small pool like this one does have an influence over time.  There are members on here that never would've heard of some these numbers if you guys didn't bring them up.  It's not even that there's more numbers guys...it's that there's now multiple types of them.   

 

You may avoid a certain kind of fan or change your level of interaction depending on your audience, but I'd say you're the exception...the example "7 goals in 10 games" debate happens a lot on here, and the reason it often does is because you have two classes of fans, one who sees the very basics and the incidentals, and one who looks past the obvious and sees the shades of gray that clearly shows that not everything is as it seems on the surface.  Most fans won't tweak the level of how they interact, which is part of the reason you'll get the clashes.     

[StarDew]

I don't tend to get abused, and I don't think I abuse people.  There's no reason you can't have a respectable discussion.  

Exactly.

 

I'm not going to hurl 'abuse' at you, but I will say - when I think of posters here that complain about the "old guard" it's mostly you and Pepperkorn.. and it's not even close.  Everyone else seems to mostly enjoy their time here..

 

What is a recent example of this 'abuse' you speak of?  If you point to BB (WD'A) I'm going to chuckle - if case you haven't noticed, discussion here has been 1000x better since his troll account(s) was banned.  We're a passionate bunch here, and disagreements are going to happen.. it's an online forum.  This place is a whole lot better than other forums I frequent.. I don't know if your online experience is limited or something but it doesn't get much better than here for Devils discussion.  Wander over to hfboards or the Devils' facebook group and take a look around to see the other side of the spectrum.

 

And every time I've seen you post in any topic besides those on the OT board, it's pretty much to complain about other people here.  I mean, that's just my impression, I could be totally wrong.  But you, along with PK, do seem like the most likely to complain.  I've got nothing against you two but I mean.. maybe this place just isn't worth frequenting anymore for you guys/gals?

steriodesign, BostonNala370, themightyall, ^7^   You are aware that calling another poster names, demanding they be banned, using crude vocabulary (I do get that it is okay to be used unless it is used against some ) is abusive. Enough examples?

 

Oh, I didn't know that posting articles and the such is complaining about others. Guess you miss those posts. 

 

The thought has crossed my mind but that would make too many happy.  Learn to use ignore.  I took a lot off my list for the off-season.  Time to revisit the list.

 

The bolded:  you're hardly one to talk.  Just take a look at page 5 of the thread below, in your responses to me and 4978...you couldn't have been more guilty of this (I'll just leave it at that): 

 

http://njdevs.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=133528&page=5

 

Oh wow!  You had to go back to March of 2014 to find an example?  Bravo!   I'd explain but you would not understand.  I used to have the utmost respect for you.  Sad.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Oh wow! You had to go back to March of 2014 to find an example? Bravo! I'd explain but you would not understand. I used to have the utmost respect for you. Sad.

Not much to explain...just don't think it's fair for you to call someone or multiple someones out on behavior you've been guilty of yourself. I picked that specific example because it involved me, and your post here jarred my memory. I remembered it because it was obvious that you made no effort to understand what I or 4978 had written and had a completely inappropriate reaction...you acted like it was some kind of attack when there was none. Sorry, but you come off as hypocritical here.

[Devilsfan118]

Okay so this thread is now well on its way to derailment (hurrah, you did it PK!), but I'll reply once more to this conversation:

 

steriodesign, BostonNala370, themightyall, ^7^   You are aware that calling another poster names, demanding they be banned, using crude vocabulary (I do get that it is okay to be used unless it is used against some ) is abusive. Enough examples?

 

I'm confused here - are you implying I have have done the bolded with all of these individuals?  Or are you calling them all out for essentially being 'meanies'?  

 

Because if it's the prior.. I haven't had a problem with anyone here but Beetlebum in the last year+.  And that's because he was clearly an attention-seeking troll.  I'm not the only one who felt that way, either - many had called for him to be either reprimanded or removed.  Go read his post in the "Lou to the Leafs" thread; he sure did show his true colors there.  He was undeniably a negative presence here, and to DM's credit, he dealt with it.

 

And if it's the latter.. holy moly, you gotta get some thicker skin or something.  '7' might be the 'rowdiest' of the bunch with his somewhat extreme posts, but you can still tell he/she is a true fan of the team.  The others are strongly opinionated and get under others' skins at times.. but again, this is a message board.  People will disagree at times.. it'd be pretty boring if they didn't, wouldn't it?  I mean, I don't think we need to hold hands and sing kumbaya after every discussion do we?

 

And to your last comment - no, those aren't examples at all.  Some actual specific instances would be nice.. you know, like the one CR1976 posted.

 

Oh, I didn't know that posting articles and the such is complaining about others. Guess you miss those posts. 

 

I said 'that's my impression'.  It's quite possible I skimmed over some of your posts because I assumed they were going to be more of the same - and I've periodically had you ignored so it's definitely possible I missed them. 

 

The thought has crossed my mind but that would make too many happy.  Learn to use ignore.  I took a lot off my list for the off-season.  Time to revisit the list.

 

So.. you're staying here just to make others less happy?  Make the experience less enjoyable for others?  That's.. that's great.  Good on you bruh.

 

And see above - I've had you ignored more often than not.  But this is what happens when I clear out my list, so.. this is probably on me.  My bad, guys.

 

Oh wow!  You had to go back to March of 2014 to find an example?  Bravo!   I'd explain but you would not understand.  I used to have the utmost respect for you.  Sad.

 

Oh come on, you can't possibly not see the irony here with this post

 

Well just in case, I'll explain - in one breathe, you criticize me (and presumably others) for not being open and conducive to a healthy discussion.. and then you reply to probably the most liked guy on this forum with some condescending BS like that?

 

Yikes.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Devilsfan118

[themightyall]

Everyone is being hypocritical about this.  I know I was a dick when I shouldn't have been and I guarantee I've thought everyone posting was a dick in some way shape or form in a post I've read because it's not about the person you are responding to, it's about the forum.  DM said it before, everyone has had a claim against them. 

 

I am probably a minority on this forum and I have not felt welcome.  That's exactly why I started finally posted after years of lurking.  A few frequent posters can take over a forum and I didn't like the way this place seemed to be so homogenized.  I can choose to say more but I'll still reserve my opinions but in general, I feel like that forums are best when they are asking about opinions and can respect those opinions because we ARE ALL DEVILS FANS.  I prefer a certain way about going about what to do as a fan, but some would call me "strongly opinionated" while I would say that it is just alternatively opinionated to the way that many people see.  Some people just can't tolerate alternatives.  But that just hurts the forum.  They need to produce discussions rather than be so hardline and refuse arguments wholesale.

 

To get back on topic.  I don't know why people hate Lou so much.  He spent 28 years here, had 5 SCF appearances, and 3 Cups in 28 years from a "Mickey Mouse Organization."  I don't want to go back and I don't want Lou to be a person that caught lightning in a bottle with Brodeur/Stevens/Neidermeyer/Brylin.  I want to feel like we had the best GM in our lifetime and he built our team to 3 cups, etc. and was able to build at 72 a great organization that crapped the bed the last 50 years until he came along.  That just adds to Devils lore to me personally.  I live in Philly and have to deal with Flyer douchebags everyday.  I want to make fun of them any way I can.  Lou bringing the Leafs to respectability would do that while I decide whether or not Shero and the owners know what they are doing.

Edited August 18, 2015 by themightyall

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

 

To get back on topic.  I don't know why people hate Lou so much.  He spent 28 years here, had 5 SCF appearances, and 3 Cups in 28 years from a "Mickey Mouse Organization."  I don't want to go back and I don't want Lou to be a person that caught lightning in a bottle with Brodeur/Stevens/Neidermeyer/Brylin.  I want to feel like we had the best GM in our lifetime and he built our team to 3 cups, etc. and was able to build at 72 a great organization that crapped the bed the last 50 years until he came along.  That just adds to Devils lore to me personally.  I live in Philly and have to deal with Flyer douchebags everyday.  I want to make fun of them any way I can.  Lou bringing the Leafs to respectability would do that while I decide whether or not Shero and the owners know what they are doing.

 

Where are you seeing Lou hate?  I don't see it in this thread...I see some apathy about his Toronto career because some fans are more concerned about what Shero and the Devils are going to do, and overall I see a sentiment that, despite all of the good he did through the years, it was time for a change.  But outright hate?  I would say (and many would agree) that Sterio has clearly been Lou's most outspoken critic on here, and even recently has taken a couple of light jabs at Lou (regarding what would've happened if Lou was still the GM), but even if Sterio was disappointed with the balance of Lou's last 4-5 seasons, he clearly doesn't hate him, and has also said that he does appreciate what Lou did overall (it's impossible not to, no matter what one thinks of Lou and his methods).  As far as Lou's public persona goes, I think there's fans that see him as humorless, stubborn, cold and inflexible, but it was never his job to be warm and fuzzy and lovable, and in a business that's about as results-oriented as it gets, Lou often got positive ones.   

 

Lou will go down one of the best GMs in ALL of professional sports, no matter what happens with the Leafs.  He's not a guy who built a powerhouse with the Devils through multiple high draft picks and years of sucking.  Of the guys you listed, it's not like they all fell into his lap.  It took serious balls and foresight to go after Stevens under the circumstances in which he got him (compensation for the Blues' signing of Brendan Shanahan).  He made an outright fleece trade in selling Tom Kurvers as high as he did in getting the first-round pick that became Scott Niedermayer.  Brodeur wasn't gifted to him either...Lou traded DOWN in the draft to get him, when Trevor Kidd (who went on to have a very unremarkable career) was the top goalie on just about everyone's depth charts...Calgary traded up with the Devils to pick him at #13, while the Devils took Brodeur seven spots later.  And then there's all of the key deals and moves that Lou made that were huge in the Devils winning their Cups:  Corey Millen for Neal Broten in 1995, dealing for Claude Lemieux, Alexander Mogilny and Vladimir Malakhov and getting important contributions from undrafted players Brian Rafalski and John Madden in 2000, acquiring Jeff Friesen and Oleg Tverdosky (and Jamie Langenbrunner the year before), with Friesen and Langenbrunner playing huge roles in the Devils winning their third Cup.  It's not like Lou got lucky with an all-time nucleus and didn't do anything to tweak or augment it...he was often much more creative and proactive than he's given credit for.  And he did it with less resources than some other teams.

 

But as is often the case with many greats, there will be detractors.  Some will point out that Lou did indeed inherit a nice talent base, and that the team spun its wheels a little longer than it should have, not really taking a definitive step forward until 1993-94 (part of the problem was that the future franchise goalie in Sean Burke regressed after his big '88 run, which clearly hurt).  Such detractors might also point out that Lou needed to borrow another team's blueprint for success, that it wasn't until Jacques Lemaire came aboard that the Devils finally had a real identity, which was part of the reason for the aforementioned wheel-spinning.  And though Lou's critics will point out that he was an excellent GM in the "old" NHL, they'll follow that up with Lou not being able to adapt to the "new" NHL, and that in time the game passed him by...that his success was era-specific, and that the era was less than glorious.

 

I think the above constitutes a minority, and due to the fact that some will insist that the Devils played nothing but 2-1 games where Brodeur only faced 13 shots per contest, thereby ruining hockey, you'll always have a faction of NHL fans who won't be able to give anyone associated with the Devils credit for anything.  And Lou did acquit himself after the '04-'05 lockout...the team still remained competitive after some of the stalwarts either retired or moved on, and his Devils made it to yet another SC Final in 2012.  The past few years weren't his finest, and the free-agency game clearly wasn't his comfort zone, but it always goes back to the same thing...you spend three decades as a GM, and it's only a matter of time before you hit a down cycle. 

 

I can't actively root for Lou to succeed in Toronto because they're a competitor...if he was the GM for a team in the Western Conference, I could.  I will be happy for him if he does though.  And seriously, who are the Flyers to talk about anything?  The last time their team won a damned Cup, they celebrated by going out disco-dancing in their leisure suits, and swinging at the cheese-and-fondue soiree.  Sure, the Flyers have beaten the Devils in the playoffs a couple of times, and actually hold the all-time regular-season edge against them, for whatever that's worth...but I'd say the Devils have accomplished more at their expense than they did at ours. 

Edited August 18, 2015 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[SterioDesign]

Everyone is being hypocritical about this.  I know I was a dick when I shouldn't have been and I guarantee I've thought everyone posting was a dick in some way shape or form in a post I've read because it's not about the person you are responding to, it's about the forum.  DM said it before, everyone has had a claim against them. 

 

I am probably a minority on this forum and I have not felt welcome.  That's exactly why I started finally posted after years of lurking.  A few frequent posters can take over a forum and I didn't like the way this place seemed to be so homogenized.  I can choose to say more but I'll still reserve my opinions but in general, I feel like that forums are best when they are asking about opinions and can respect those opinions because we ARE ALL DEVILS FANS.  I prefer a certain way about going about what to do as a fan, but some would call me "strongly opinionated" while I would say that it is just alternatively opinionated to the way that many people see.  Some people just can't tolerate alternatives.  But that just hurts the forum.  They need to produce discussions rather than be so hardline and refuse arguments wholesale.

 

To get back on topic.  I don't know why people hate Lou so much.  He spent 28 years here, had 5 SCF appearances, and 3 Cups in 28 years from a "Mickey Mouse Organization."  I don't want to go back and I don't want Lou to be a person that caught lightning in a bottle with Brodeur/Stevens/Neidermeyer/Brylin.  I want to feel like we had the best GM in our lifetime and he built our team to 3 cups, etc. and was able to build at 72 a great organization that crapped the bed the last 50 years until he came along.  That just adds to Devils lore to me personally.  I live in Philly and have to deal with Flyer douchebags everyday.  I want to make fun of them any way I can.  Lou bringing the Leafs to respectability would do that while I decide whether or not Shero and the owners know what they are doing.

 

I guess you kind of answered your own question in a way here. And I don't think anyone here hates Lou (a bunch of people here would assume I hate him of course but I don't, i'm just the kind of guy who's gonna call a cat a cat.) 

 

I made this reference before and it's totally legit. Lou is almost like God to Devils fans. Literally. And by that I mean, he sure did great things and all but the fans want to believe SO bad. If you say something against him it's basically like telling a big time christian that God doesn't exist. You can bring up scientific facts about the big bang and all that sh!t, they won't have it. And i've seen it often here fans admitting they willingly doesn't want to think Lou was a problem or did something wrong, the emotional connection is too great. It's no different than a mother not willing to admit her son could do something bad. And you said it yourself you dont want to believe he was a fluke and you want to believe he was the best GM and all. Well when someone commits to a belief like that he doesn't see clearly, you hear what you wan't and you ignore what you don't want to believe. If you want to believe Lou was the best GM i could bring up a thousands accomplishment from Ken Holland and you wouldn't have it cause you don't even want to hear it or find a way to tweak history or find a way to convince yourself that it was really Lou. I'm not saying you're like that by the way i'm using an extreme example here.

 

And as for why it may seem like people hate Lou now? It's simply cause people go by the emotion they have "now". Take this as an example. You live happily with your wife for 15 years and then you have kids or some kind of event that changes things slightly. And there is a need to change habits in order to keeps things going but your wife doesn't change and it's starting to create friction in your couple. And those habits that never bothered you before is a big problem now with the kids and it's accumulating to the point where it doesn't work out and you split. And i think it's the same exact thing here cause if you've been in that situation you can't go "ohhh i've wasted 20 years of my life with that person" and be all pissed about just the bad stuff. If you look at the overall you had years and years of good times but it was time to change and move on cause you we're not right for each other in the situation you were in. But talk to anyone you just went through divorce or wtv, they'll most likely say that his ex wife was a bitch lol he won't bring up all the good times, not for awhile anyway. 

 

Sports fans are really hypocrites most of the time. It's the same thing if any of us get in a argument about who's the best goalie between Roy and Brodeur. None of us would even begin to consider thinking Roy might be the best one out of the 2. Even though there's tons of fair facts that are suggesting it. How many of us would be willing to debate that Roy was better? We'll throw the wins total and shutouts and all but will ignore that Brodeur had the SO in his favour. That Roy was a lot better in playoffs, more cups and trophies and all. Again, people usually are not willing to change their belief no matter how you throw facts at them. And this is why there was so much friction with some posters about Lou. Some had a strong opinion about him and some would call him out on stuff but the rest wouldnt have it.

Edited August 18, 2015 by SterioDesign

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Lou isn't THE undisputed best (who is?  It gets tough when trying to split hairs), but he's clearly up there and in the conversation.  A few tough years at the end of a long run of competitive (and sometimes more) doesn't change any of that. 

 

There is no real Lou hate...no amongst the majority, anyway...there's people who are disappointed with how things ended, and there's people who are angry with Lou over some of his moves, and there's people who think Lou might not have it anymore, but outright hate?  Not seeing that at all...seems like a flawed narrative. 

 

Even Lou's most ardent supporters acknowledge he made some mistakes.  Just because they don't trash him multiple times about it, or try to see the shades of gray within some of the more costly mistakes doesn't mean they think everything he did was perfect and above reproach.  There's moves he's made that I flat-out hated...the Clowe signing was one of them.  I think damned near to a fan, Lou supporter or not, almost all of us thought there was no turning this around with Lou, that it was really hard to believe in him had he stuck around.   

 

As far as the goalie debate goes, I've always felt the same:  Roy was best in the clutch, Hasek was the best pure puck-stopper I've ever seen, and Brodeur was an incredible puck-player who was freakishly durable and raised his game during all three Cup-winning runs.  Roy vs. Brodeur stat comparisons are tricky because Roy played a big chunk of his career in Live Puck, where .900 save%s and sub-3.00 GAAs were a big deal...Marty player almost all of his career in Dead Puck.  And then you have guys in other eras like Sawchuk and Dryden that I didn't see.  You can't really go wrong with any of them.  I put Brodeur in the same category I put Lou...I don't necessarily think either one is the absolute best at what he did, but they're both definitely in their respective conversations.  If you're asking me, I probably put Roy very slightly ahead of Brodeur, especially since Roy still had it when he hung them up...he had something left in the tank.  Brodeur was mostly going on fumes at the end.  Neither Roy nor Hasek can be accused of hanging on a little too long.  You can make that argument with Marty if so inclined. 

Edited August 18, 2015 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[themightyall]

I probably should've been a little lighter with my tone last night about Lou.  A fun night out with friends and your wife goes to bed early lends to me shooting half cocked.  I actually had to read my own comments to get reference, lol.

 

Anyway, I don't mean to say Lou is or was "hated" by anyone on the board, just that a couple of posts I read about how no one cares what he does in Toronto.  I care and I would hope more care because his success does reflect on the Devils.  Of course I agree that we shouldn't hope the Leafs win any cups, but I would say that about every team, western conference or otherwise.  So I took this thread as "if not the Devils, who would you want to succeed most" and my answer now would be the Leafs because I want to see Lou do what he does best.

[Devilsfan118]

Anyway, I don't mean to say Lou is or was "hated" by anyone on the board, just that a couple of posts I read about how no one cares what he does in Toronto.  I care and I would hope more care because his success does reflect on the Devils.  Of course I agree that we shouldn't hope the Leafs win any cups, but I would say that about every team, western conference or otherwise.  So I took this thread as "if not the Devils, who would you want to succeed most" and my answer now would be the Leafs because I want to see Lou do what he does best.

 

Problem is -  I can't freakin stand the Leafs or their entitled fans.  And while I certainly hold no ill-will towards Lou for taking a job there.. I won't be rooting for them to win any time soon.

 

If Lou had gone to a team I was neutral to I would be more with you, but.. I can't with the Leafs.

[BostonNala370]

Lou isn't THE undisputed best (who is?  It gets tough when trying to split hairs), but he's clearly up there and in the conversation.  A few tough years at the end of a long run of competitive (and sometimes more) doesn't change any of that. 

 

There is no real Lou hate...no amongst the majority, anyway...there's people who are disappointed with how things ended, and there's people who are angry with Lou over some of his moves, and there's people who think Lou might not have it anymore, but outright hate?  Not seeing that at all...seems like a flawed narrative. 

 

Even Lou's most ardent supporters acknowledge he made some mistakes.  Just because they don't trash him multiple times about it, or try to see the shades of gray within some of the more costly mistakes doesn't mean they think everything he did was perfect and above reproach.  There's moves he's made that I flat-out hated...the Clowe signing was one of them.  I think damned near to a fan, Lou supporter or not, almost all of us thought there was no turning this around with Lou, that it was really hard to believe in him had he stuck around.   

 

As far as the goalie debate goes, I've always felt the same:  Roy was best in the clutch, Hasek was the best pure puck-stopper I've ever seen, and Brodeur was an incredible puck-player who was freakishly durable and raised his game during all three Cup-winning runs.  Roy vs. Brodeur stat comparisons are tricky because Roy played a big chunk of his career in Live Puck, where .900 save%s and sub-3.00 GAAs were a big deal...Marty player almost all of his career in Dead Puck.  And then you have guys in other eras like Sawchuk and Dryden that I didn't see.  You can't really go wrong with any of them.  I put Brodeur in the same category I put Lou...I don't necessarily think either one is the absolute best at what he did, but they're both definitely in their respective conversations.  If you're asking me, I probably put Roy very slightly ahead of Brodeur, especially since Roy still had it when he hung them up...he had something left in the tank.  Brodeur was mostly going on fumes at the end.  Neither Roy nor Hasek can be accused of hanging on a little too long.  You can make that argument with Marty if so inclined. 

 

Lou isn't THE undisputed best (who is?  It gets tough when trying to split hairs), but he's clearly up there and in the conversation.  A few tough years at the end of a long run of competitive (and sometimes more) doesn't change any of that. 

 

There is no real Lou hate...no amongst the majority, anyway...there's people who are disappointed with how things ended, and there's people who are angry with Lou over some of his moves, and there's people who think Lou might not have it anymore, but outright hate?  Not seeing that at all...seems like a flawed narrative. 

 

Even Lou's most ardent supporters acknowledge he made some mistakes.  Just because they don't trash him multiple times about it, or try to see the shades of gray within some of the more costly mistakes doesn't mean they think everything he did was perfect and above reproach.  There's moves he's made that I flat-out hated...the Clowe signing was one of them.  I think damned near to a fan, Lou supporter or not, almost all of us thought there was no turning this around with Lou, that it was really hard to believe in him had he stuck around.   

 

As far as the goalie debate goes, I've always felt the same:  Roy was best in the clutch, Hasek was the best pure puck-stopper I've ever seen, and Brodeur was an incredible puck-player who was freakishly durable and raised his game during all three Cup-winning runs.  Roy vs. Brodeur stat comparisons are tricky because Roy played a big chunk of his career in Live Puck, where .900 save%s and sub-3.00 GAAs were a big deal...Marty player almost all of his career in Dead Puck.  And then you have guys in other eras like Sawchuk and Dryden that I didn't see.  You can't really go wrong with any of them.  I put Brodeur in the same category I put Lou...I don't necessarily think either one is the absolute best at what he did, but they're both definitely in their respective conversations.  If you're asking me, I probably put Roy very slightly ahead of Brodeur, especially since Roy still had it when he hung them up...he had something left in the tank.  Brodeur was mostly going on fumes at the end.  Neither Roy nor Hasek can be accused of hanging on a little too long.  You can make that argument with Marty if so inclined.You have positioned Lou  exactly where he belongs. As for Marty, while it's was a shame, you have been on the spot. Harris was correcct, don't hire Marty and put Lou in a position to bail

[devlman]

HFBoards's discussion is not good, but it seems like a much more civil place to me.  That's because it's heavily moderated.  

 

As someone who has been here since the beginning, this place was an oasis away from the basically unreadable message board over at nj.com/devils.  It was this weird thing that we were all doing, talking online about our favorite hockey team.  There were posters that were picked on, and posters who it was thought 'wow, this person's weird', but there wasn't quite the level of rancor that I see here now (but there was plenty of rancor elsewhere on the site - that old Politics forum, yeesh).  I think a bit of that is because the Devils were generally winning, but also because it was a novel thing to do, that you could open up your computer and see all of these different ideas coming at you.  Now talking online about anything is not a weird thing, and you can do it anywhere you like - attitudes towards online writing have changed because the environment has changed.  I feel like back then people were more interested in different perspectives since we were all these kinda strange people doing this kinda strange thing, and there wasn't an endless supply of material online.  Now in the days of Facebook and Twitter there is a never ending stream, and you can just delete someone you don't like, never having to interact with them again (and they you).  Or, if you don't do that, you have to scroll past your crazy uncle's rantings about Obama or Trump or whatever.  It's become banal, and so people's expectations for what they're going to see on a site like this have changed.  I'll admit I don't always read PK's posts but I usually enjoy them when I do, there's always something in there even if it's not necessarily about hockey.   Anyway, to me, that's what people are talking about when they're talking about what's missed about the old days.  There's some romanticism mixed in of course, but it felt more like a community - where weirdness would make you think 'Oh, that's just person X being person X', instead of 'I wish I never had to see any of Person X's posts ever again'.

 

 

 

In a nutshell, every emotional and insecure child has a smart phone with internet access these days. That wasnt the case 10-15 years ago. People on the internet dont realize that half the time theyre arguing with someone who is still in junior high.

[mfitz804]

In a nutshell, every emotional and insecure child has a smart phone with internet access these days. That wasnt the case 10-15 years ago. People on the internet dont realize that half the time theyre arguing with someone who is still in junior high.

 

Or who still has the mentality they had when in junior high. Just a general statement, not directed at anyone in particular.