Hockey's Future Updated Devils Prospect Rankings

[Daniel]

My link

The full review isn't out, but I noticed that the individual player ratings have been updated.

A few things that caught my eye:

Merrill was bumped up from an 8D to an 8C.

Both Matteau and Severson are 7Cs.

Of course, this is all just for fun. Before the season, I think they had Henrique at a 6.5C, which equates to a third-line forward.

[aylbert]

Of course, this is all just for fun. Before the season, I think they had Henrique at a 6.5C, which equates to a third-line forward.

To be fair, that's a snapshot of Henrique's progress... who has been on the rise for quite some time now. If everything was fact, there would be no need for scouts

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

Its difficult to take their ranking scores seriously when they have a 10 as a generational tallent:

10. Generational Talent - a player for the ages, one who can do things with a puck that no other player would even contemplate doing. Very, very few players will be deserving of this rating, probably one per decade.

Defense: Bobby Orr

Forward: Wayne Gretzky

Goaltender: Patrick Roy

And then 9:

9. Elite Talent – possesses the potential for greatness, a perennial All-Star throughout his career.

Defense: Nicklas Lidstrom, Zdeno Chara, Chris Pronger

Forward: Ilya Kovalchuk, Joe Thornton, Eric Staal

Goaltender: Martin Brodeur, Roberto Luongo, Henrik Lundqvist

Listing Brodeur alongside Luongo!!

As for our rankings, it would be nice to have a few more B's in the system, but we always seem to draft players who fill a need within the orgnaisation.

[aylbert]

Its difficult to take their ranking scores seriously when they have a 10 as a generational tallent:

And then 9:

Listing Brodeur alongside Luongo!!

Luongo was/is a great goaltender who deserves a 9 on their scale. Many will argue who is better (Roy vs Brodeur); but I don't think many (besides Marty haters) that would say they aren't in the same class. They both deserve 10s.

As for our rankings, it would be nice to have a few more B's in the system, but we always seem to draft players who fill a need within the orgnaisation.

I always thought we drafted based off best available (leaning towards complete players as opposed to pure snipers/etc), and not just on need.

[Daniel]

Its difficult to take their ranking scores seriously when they have a 10 as a generational tallent:

And then 9:

Listing Brodeur alongside Luongo!!

As for our rankings, it would be nice to have a few more B's in the system, but we always seem to draft players who fill a need within the orgnaisation.

Lidstrom also belongs in the 10 category. Could be one of the top five defensemen of all-time, if not in the top three.

[DevsMan84]

Roy was a great talent and I think what carried him to a 10 and Marty to a 9 on their rankings was their playoff records. Marty will have to make at least couple of more runs to the Cup finals to have a shot of breaking Roy's wins record. Also, Roy is 4 for 4 in Stanley Cup finals and won the Conn Smythe in 3 of them. He certainly was the difference in each of those 3 years.

Also Marty right now has time on his side. I think the fact that he is still playing is also sorta a knock against him. He is one of those stars who has been so good for so long that every record and accomplishment is seemingly routine by now. Give it about a solid 10 years after he retires and you will see people will start to appreciate Marty more. That's when you will see Marty up there at 10 with Roy.

[oofrostonoo]

I wonder who runs this site. I feel like a lot of their rankings are pulled out of their ass. What are the qualifications of these guys? Reading other reporters scouting reports?

[Daniel]

I wonder who runs this site. I feel like a lot of their rankings are pulled out of their ass. What are the qualifications of these guys? Reading other reporters scouting reports?

My link

These are the main authors.

I think HF's biggest sin has been hyping prospects to Ron Jaworski (every quarterback in the draft has Pro Bowl potential) type levels.

It looks like they're actually getting a little better as of late with more realistic and measured assessments.

[Devs3cups]

Interesting!

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't larsson a 9C when he got drafted?

I think I saw that on the devils prospect rankings last year?

[Daniel]

Interesting!

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't larsson a 9C when he got drafted?

I think I saw that on the devils prospect rankings last year?

He's a 9B now, as is RNH.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Daniel

[Devs3cups]

Ok thanks! 9B is pretty awesome !

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

Luongo was/is a great goaltender who deserves a 9 on their scale. Many will argue who is better (Roy vs Brodeur); but I don't think many (besides Marty haters) that would say they aren't in the same class. They both deserve 10s.

Hmm i think Luongos ability to go missing when it counts is a massive knock against him. He clearly has elite level skill but i think he falls just below what is required in terms of their rankings to get a 9.

8 – players with definite skill that might be just a cut below elite status, but still possessing All-Star potential.

I think that sums Luongo up to me.

I always thought we drafted based off best available (leaning towards complete players as opposed to pure snipers/etc), and not just on need.

At the time of the draft, its BPA, but before they go in they decide whats required long term, hence why we now have so many large, mobile, puck moving defensemen in the organisation, and have started to accumulate quite a few centers.

They take the BPA, but they do take a number of players that plug a hole, and have a good chance of panning out. Safe picks that will add and solve a problem going forward seems to be the key.

Lidstrom also belongs in the 10 category. Could be one of the top five defensemen of all-time, if not in the top three.

Agreed.

Roy was a great talent and I think what carried him to a 10 and Marty to a 9 on their rankings was their playoff records. Marty will have to make at least couple of more runs to the Cup finals to have a shot of breaking Roy's wins record. Also, Roy is 4 for 4 in Stanley Cup finals and won the Conn Smythe in 3 of them. He certainly was the difference in each of those 3 years.

Also Marty right now has time on his side. I think the fact that he is still playing is also sorta a knock against him. He is one of those stars who has been so good for so long that every record and accomplishment is seemingly routine by now. Give it about a solid 10 years after he retires and you will see people will start to appreciate Marty more. That's when you will see Marty up there at 10 with Roy.

Roy deserves a 10, no question, but Marty has to be up there as well, Roy has the edge in playoffs, but Marty has over 100 more wins and nearly 60 more shutouts than Roy.

Also in terms of playoffs, Marty has a better save percentage, shutout record and goalscoring record. IMO they at least equals.

Yeah the fact he is still playing could be a knock.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Roy deserves a 10, no question, but Marty has to be up there as well, Roy has the edge in playoffs, but Marty has over 100 more wins and nearly 60 more shutouts than Roy.

Also in terms of playoffs, Marty has a better save percentage, shutout record and goalscoring record. IMO they at least equals.

Yeah the fact he is still playing could be a knock.

It's funny, I'll never ever EVER have a bad word to say about Marty and his accomplishments and everything he's done in his stellar career, but I think some people are going to start throwing out the "compiler" moniker as Marty's career closes, with regards to the all-time win total. And those who do might say, "If Marty had played 5 or 6 games less during the regular season, might he have enjoyed more deep playoff runs? Were the higher regular season win totals worth it?" Not saying I agree with that take at all, but I do think some Roy supporters will say Roy could've won more regular season games (maybe not as many as Marty, but more than the 551 he retired with) if he had been more "selfish".

One thing about Roy's stats...he played roughly the first half of his career in the Live Puck Era. Top-scoring teams were averaging 4.5 GPG or better, average teams were about 3.7 GPG, and teams that couldn't score much were in the low 3.00s. It was a big deal to finish a season with a save% of .900+ and a GAA under 3.00 back then. To give you an idea: John Vanbiesbrouck finished 1985-86 with a 31-21-5 record, a 3.32 GAA, and an .887 save%. The latter two numbers would likely get you cut or on the bench in this era. But VBK won the Vezina that year.

Brodeur's career started in the waning days of the Live Puck Era...he's played most of his career in the Dead Puck Era, where for most of it, the top offensive teams are around 3.5 GPG, average teams are around 2.8 GPG, and teams that can't score are in the low-to-mid 2.00s. There's been exceptions here and there, but teams that crack 4.00 GPG are very rare, where in the era Roy started his career, there were usually 5-7 teams who averaged better than 4.00 (Gretzky's Oilers often bettered 5.00 GPG). So comparing Roy's lifetime numbers and Marty's lifetime numbers is a little like comparing an elite '80s NFL QB's stats to one playing in 2011. It's a hard comparison to make on stats alone.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Triumph]

It's funny, I'll never ever EVER have a bad word to say about Marty and his accomplishments and everything he's done in his stellar career, but I think some people are going to start throwing out the "compiler" moniker as Marty's career closes, with regards to the all-time win total. And those who do might say, "If Marty had played 5 or 6 games less during the regular season, might he have enjoyed more deep playoff runs? Were the higher regular season win totals worth it?" Not saying I agree with that take at all, but I do think some Roy supporters will say Roy could've won more regular season games (maybe not as many as Marty, but more than the 551 he retired with) if he had been more "selfish".

One thing about Roy's stats...he played roughly the first half of his career in the Live Puck Era. Top-scoring teams were averaging 4.5 GPG or better, average teams were about 3.7 GPG, and teams that couldn't score much were in the low 3.00s. It was a big deal to finish a season with a save% of .900+ and a GAA under 3.00 back then. To give you an idea: John Vanbiesbrouck finished 1985-86 with a 31-21-5 record, a 3.32 GAA, and an .887 save%. The latter two numbers would likely get you cut or on the bench in this era. But VBK won the Vezina that year.

Brodeur's career started in the waning days of the Live Puck Era...he's played most of his career in the Dead Puck Era, where for most of it, the top offensive teams are around 3.5 GPG, average teams are around 2.8 GPG, and teams that can't score are in the low-to-mid 2.00s. There's been exceptions here and there, but teams that crack 4.00 GPG are very rare, where in the era Roy started his career, there were usually 5-7 teams who averaged better than 4.00 (Gretzky's Oilers often bettered 5.00 GPG). So comparing Roy's lifetime numbers and Marty's lifetime numbers is a little like comparing an elite '80s NFL QB's stats to one playing in 2011. It's a hard comparison to make on stats alone.

It's not hard to compare rank, though. Roy had two seasons where he finished out of the top 10 in save percentage. Brodeur had 6 seasons where he finished IN the top 10 in save percentage. While playing in NJ has hurt him slightly since the shot counter tends to be asleep at the switch, the Devils have also been by far the most disciplined team in the league over his career, so he's had to face fewer PP shots than average.

This is getting off the point, which is that HF rankings are moronic and betray an 'either-or' way of talking about prospects.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

It's not hard to compare rank, though. Roy had two seasons where he finished out of the top 10 in save percentage. Brodeur had 6 seasons where he finished IN the top 10 in save percentage. While playing in NJ has hurt him slightly since the shot counter tends to be asleep at the switch, the Devils have also been by far the most disciplined team in the league over his career, so he's had to face fewer PP shots than average.

This is getting off the point, which is that HF rankings are moronic and betray an 'either-or' way of talking about prospects.

In bold: all true enough, but most people aren't going to take the time to check out save% rankings for each season...they're going see Roy's .910 career save%, and Marty's .913 career mark, and say, "Marty was a better puck stopper", without taking the factors and eras they played in into account. And like you say, the fact that some teams over or under count shot totals makes the picture murkier.

But yeah, I've never really taken HF rakings all that seriously, to get back on point.

[Daniel]

This is getting off the point, which is that HF rankings are moronic and betray an 'either-or' way of talking about prospects.

Like I said, it's just for fun.

[SterioDesign]

am i the only one worried about Larsson's lack of speed and grit ? i mean all im reading is how good he'll be and yeah i saw how good he can be but speed is so damn important in today's game and he's really slow

[Triumph]

am i the only one worried about Larsson's lack of speed and grit ? i mean all im reading is how good he'll be and yeah i saw how good he can be but speed is so damn important in today's game and he's really slow

Look at Chara and Pronger and get back to me. Shea Weber isn't fleet of foot either. Nicklas Lidstrom is a good skater but I don't think I would ever describe him as 'fast'. Part of Larsson's lack of speed is him being unable to adjust to NHL speed mentally, so he'll learn that in time and won't look so slow. Part of it is that Larsson isn't done maturing physically and will grow faster. I'm not saying Larsson will end up in that class of defenseman, but speed isn't a prerequisite.

I am totally unconcerned with 'lack of grit' - Larsson took a ton of big hits last year and responded well. He threw a couple himself, too.

[SterioDesign]

Look at Chara and Pronger and get back to me. Shea Weber isn't fleet of foot either. Nicklas Lidstrom is a good skater but I don't think I would ever describe him as 'fast'. Part of Larsson's lack of speed is him being unable to adjust to NHL speed mentally, so he'll learn that in time and won't look so slow. Part of it is that Larsson isn't done maturing physically and will grow faster. I'm not saying Larsson will end up in that class of defenseman, but speed isn't a prerequisite.

I am totally unconcerned with 'lack of grit' - Larsson took a ton of big hits last year and responded well. He threw a couple himself, too.

yeah thats right but we also saw great things that some dman did with great speed, im thinking mcdonagh backchecking so fast catching up guys on breakways really often... sorry to use a Rangers dman but he did it so often... of course theres good dmen who played their whole career without a lot of speed but its certainly a good asset to have.

and Larsson was never the same after that hit from Subban

[Lateralous]

Roy was a great talent and I think what carried him to a 10 and Marty to a 9 on their rankings was their playoff records. Marty will have to make at least couple of more runs to the Cup finals to have a shot of breaking Roy's wins record. Also, Roy is 4 for 4 in Stanley Cup finals and won the Conn Smythe in 3 of them. He certainly was the difference in each of those 3 years.

Also Marty right now has time on his side. I think the fact that he is still playing is also sorta a knock against him. He is one of those stars who has been so good for so long that every record and accomplishment is seemingly routine by now. Give it about a solid 10 years after he retires and you will see people will start to appreciate Marty more. That's when you will see Marty up there at 10 with Roy.

4 of 5, Calgary beat the Canadiens in the 1989 final.

Roy's 151 playoff wins are pretty amazing. Brodeur has been to the final 5 times as well and still wouldn't catch him if we won the next 2 cups. Those early exits in the late 90's when the Devils should have at least been making the conference finals really hurt Brodeurs overall record.