GDT 3/19/13: NY Rags @ Devils

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Well that's Lou's job to figure it out not mine. But wtv he did or didnt do isnt working out. and i'd assume Lou said HIMSELF "you just CAN'T replace a guy like Zach." but it could be "Don't" cause thats clearly what he did... he didnt get anyone to at least try to fill that production from Zach and Sykora. It works to make small acquisition to patch things on trade deadline just to boost your team... but we lost a 30 and a  20 goals scorer and he simply didnt bring anyone that could come close to patch for that lack. It's a fact, he didnt. I guess he assumed Zajac's production since he's back would be enough, i guess he thought having like 6 4th line players should do to. 

 

Exactly, so stop trying to make it sound like it's so friggin' simple and that Lou should've just been able to easily replace both players .  Lou is thorough and I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one...I am guessing he didn't see anyone to his liking enough to overpay (which is what tends to happen when bringing in UFAs).  So be it.  Sometime the quick fix just isn't there.  I can understand his thinking re: Zajac...it's hard to believe that he has four assists in 30 GP.  I don't know a soul on Earth who could've seen THAT coming.  I would think by this point, he'd have 10 or so by accident.    

 

Though lack of scoring has clearly hurt the Devils, when you have a goalie putting up an .886% in 17 starts, it's going to make for some rough going.  Your complaining is built on a faulty premise, that quick and obvious solutions are always there, if only a guy like Lou was observant enough to see them all.  You may want to look at the other side of that coin, and realize that maybe, just maybe, a guy like Lou is smart enough to see that quick and obvious solutions WEREN'T there this off-season.  The fact remains, you've seen your team get to five Finals and miss the playoffs three times since '88-'89.  Some seasons it doesn't all fall into place, and this one's not over yet.   

 

Not saying Lou is perfect...no GM is or ever will be.  He's had his share of follies and moves that seemed good on paper, but just didn't work out.    

Edited March 20, 2013 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Triumph]

Well that's Lou's job to figure it out not mine. But wtv he did or didnt do isnt working out. and i'd assume Lou said HIMSELF "you just CAN'T replace a guy like Zach." but it could be "Don't" cause thats clearly what he did... he didnt get anyone to at least try to fill that production from Zach and Sykora. It works to make small acquisition to patch things on trade deadline just to boost your team... but we lost a 30 and a  20 goals scorer and he simply didnt bring anyone that could come close to patch for that lack. It's a fact, he didnt. I guess he assumed Zajac's production since he's back would be enough, i guess he thought having like 6 4th line players should do to. 

 

This is a Moneyball lesson - you don't 'replace' 30 goals.  I mean, I suppose you can, but it's silly to look at it that way.  The Devils had horribly unbalanced scoring last season - sure they had a bunch of guys with 30 goals, but beyond that, it was a graveyard.  This year, the scoring is more balanced.  People talking about Sykora have to STFU, we don't miss him one bit.  I'm sure he was going to score 5 goals off faceoffs again and shoot above his career average because that's what 35 year old players do, typically.  The Devils have lower lines that can score goals (again last night, the 4th line was on the ice for a goal!  That literally did not happen last year until game 78).

 

The percentages stink and you can't outrun the percentages unless you are Detroit in 2008 dominant.

[devilsrule33]

Also, for everyone ragging on Lou, no one knows what he tried to do. Just because nothing happened doesn't mean he didn't look to sign Semin or call 20 GMs seeing if a scorer was available. The Parise signing not happening till July 3rd forced him to miss a few players. You don't badly overpay either to fix an issue. There is enough talent on this team to get a good amount of goals. It's a slump, but this just as easily could have happened with Parise.

 

As for Hedberg, he made a mistake tonight, but  he also made 3 ridiculous saves. He wasn't the reason they lost.

[2ELIAS6]

Here's some Wednesday morning comedy:

 

Ilya Kovalchuk- 10 goals on 105 shots 9.5%

Patrik Elias- 9 goals on 70 shots 12.9%

David Clarkson- 11 goals on 111 shots 9.9%

Stephen Gionta- 3 goals on 35 shots 8.6%

Ryan Carter- 3 goals on 40 shots 7.5%

Travis Zajac- 5 goals on 55 shots 9.1%

Marek Zidlicky- 3 goals on 65 shots 4.6%

Poni- 1 goal on 28 shots 3.6 %

Matteau- 1 goal on 22 shots 4.5%

when you look at it like that.... god thats sad, especialy for kovy.... i mean i feel like zajac really hasnt done much of anything this year so far...its like after he got his little contract he quit producing...although its obviously not just him from the facts above here no one is producing much... this team can be so much better, i hope this last month of hockey we have is more enjoyable to watch

[2ELIAS6]

Also, for everyone ragging on Lou, no one knows what he tried to do. Just because nothing happened doesn't mean he didn't look to sign Semin or call 20 GMs seeing if a scorer was available. The Parise signing not happening till July 3rd forced him to miss a few players. You don't badly overpay either to fix an issue. There is enough talent on this team to get a good amount of goals. It's a slump, but this just as easily could have happened with Parise.

As for Hedberg, he made a mistake tonight, but he also made 3 ridiculous saves. He wasn't the reason they lost.

does anyone recall why we werent able to re sign a deal with zach? were the numbers too far off from what he wanted or was he just looking to dump us and move else where? Im assuming it was the numbers being off?... but how far off were they?...not implying that he would have made a complete difference here but you never know, i definently miss seeing him out there. Edited March 20, 2013 by Sik02gt

[DevsMan84]

does anyone recall why we werent able to re sign a deal with zach? were the numbers too far off from what he wanted or was he just looking to dump us and move else where? Im assuming it was the numbers being off?... but how far off were they?...not implying that he would have made a complete difference here but you never know, i definently miss seeing him out there.

 

I sometime miss him too, and then I remember that $98 million over 13 years contract he signed and that definitely takes the sting out of that.

 

We already have a monster contract with Kovy and we really do not need another.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

This is a Moneyball lesson - you don't 'replace' 30 goals.  I mean, I suppose you can, but it's silly to look at it that way.  The Devils had horribly unbalanced scoring last season - sure they had a bunch of guys with 30 goals, but beyond that, it was a graveyard.  This year, the scoring is more balanced.  People talking about Sykora have to STFU, we don't miss him one bit.  I'm sure he was going to score 5 goals off faceoffs again and shoot above his career average because that's what 35 year old players do, typically.  The Devils have lower lines that can score goals (again last night, the 4th line was on the ice for a goal!  That literally did not happen last year until game 78).

 

The percentages stink and you can't outrun the percentages unless you are Detroit in 2008 dominant.

 

In fairness, I don't think Sterio was looking for Sykora specifically to come back, just to see his production replaced.  I think part of Sterio's problem is he sees 50 goals "gone" from the lineup, and thinks, "OK, well, Lou should be able to find two new guys who can score 50 goals between them, right now."  It's a very simplistic way of looking at it, and not the right one. 

 

Like what was said in "Moneyball", it looked like the Devils, at least initially, were trying to replace some of those "lost" 50 goals in the aggregate.  Problem is they're not going in for Zajac, Kovalchuk is a few goals off what you'd expect, and they've stopped going in for Clarkson, though on the season he's probably right around where he should be (11 goals in 30 GP pro-rates to 30 in a full 82-game season...if we had been told Clarkson would be good for 11 goals in 30 GP, we probably all sign up for it).  Then you have some guys missing games, and no one has really overachieved this season from a pure goal-scoring standpoint.  So unfortunately the aggregate hasn't really happened, especially lately.  

[Zubie#8]

Boychuk on waivers for the 4th time haha.

 

Why not?

[SterioDesign]

In fairness, I don't think Sterio was looking for Sykora specifically to come back, just to see his production replaced.  I think part of Sterio's problem is he sees 50 goals "gone" from the lineup, and thinks, "OK, well, Lou should be able to find two new guys who can score 50 goals between them, right now."  It's a very simplistic way of looking at it, and not the right one. 

 

Like what was said in "Moneyball", it looked like the Devils, at least initially, were trying to replace some of those "lost" 50 goals in the aggregate.  Problem is they're not going in for Zajac, Kovalchuk is a few goals off what you'd expect, and they've stopped going in for Clarkson, though on the season he's probably right around where he should be (11 goals in 30 GP pro-rates to 30 in a full 82-game season...if we had been told Clarkson would be good for 11 goals in 30 GP, we probably all sign up for it).  Then you have some guys missing games, and no one has really overachieved this season from a pure goal-scoring standpoint.  So unfortunately the aggregate hasn't really happened, especially lately.  

 

pretty much, and no i don't oversimplify things like you seem obsess to tag me with that belief.

 

What we lost with Zach?

 

His forecheck: we're not winning battles as much deep in the zone, especially since we lost zub too.

 

His scoring: Zach was scoring goals that no one else on our team could score, those super quick rush/wraparound like against Philly last year), those goals are important when youre in a tight game.

 

His passing: Zach was making great plays and was working hard to help his linemates and he WAS making his linemates better. Bunch of our guys are struggling now, Zajac would be a lot better with Zach.

 

PK: debatable some say he was not great on the PK for a reason or another, to me a was a beast. Fine we can live without him on the PK but now we have guys like Gionta killing penalties every games.

 

PP: Again Zach was not incredible on the PP but was certainly drawing intention and could help. The problem is again since he's gone our depth is challenge, we saw terrible PK players on our PP many many times.

 

Shootouts: Well i dont really have to explain that one right? Kovy is awesome. Elias it's up in the air is seriously never know with him, Clarkson as one move, Henrique is not as good as we would expect... then what ?

 

So my whole point is... Lou tried to fix the loss of what "Zach was bringing" strictly internally and we don't have the depth to do that.  And it's giving bigger roles to guys who can't fill those shoes.

 

Guys like Zajac, Kovy, Henrique, Elias, Zub, Poni, Clarkson, etc etc already had their roles WITH Zach aboard. You can't say "Travis will cover for Zach on the PP..." he was playing WITH HIM. He was already part of that play.

 

so Lou got us... Kostopoulos, Barch, Butler, burned a ELC year of Matteau who was not really ready and Lokti (like i said somewhere Lokti is fvcking awesome but im pretty damn sure Lou didnt know he could help that much right away, it was a depth move at the time) so those guys are NOT filling the void of what we lost with Zach.

Edited March 20, 2013 by SterioDesign

[Derlique]

pretty much, and no i don't oversimplify things like you seem obsess to tag me with that belief.

 

What we lost with Zach?

 

His forecheck: we're not winning battles as much deep in the zone, especially since we lost zub too. Agreed. But we're still generating lots of chances and cycling the puck well

 

His scoring: Zach was scoring goals that no one else on our team could score, those super quick rush/wraparound like against Philly last year), those goals are important when youre in a tight game. Once again, I agree. I don't think anyone would have predicted most of our players would shoot well below their career average

 

His passing: Zach was making great plays and was working hard to help his linemates and he WAS making his linemates better. Bunch of our guys are struggling now, Zajac would be a lot better with Zach. Parise is not a very good passer and doesn't have great vision

 

PK: debatable some say he was not great on the PK for a reason or another, to me a was a beast. Fine we can live without him on the PK but now we have guys like Gionta killing penalties every games. We're still scoring SH at a pretty high rate, but Parise isn't the reason why we're giving up so many. First of all, Brodeur and Hedberg were amazing on the PK last year, this season, not so much. Parise doesn't have anything to do with that.

 

PP: Again Zach was not incredible on the PP but was certainly drawing intention and could help. The problem is again since he's gone our depth is challenge, we saw terrible PK players on our PP many many times. Maybe they weren't utilizing him correctly, but I dont think he's a big loss here

 

Shootouts: Well i dont really have to explain that one right? Kovy is awesome. Elias it's up in the air is seriously never know with him, Clarkson as one move, Henrique is not as good as we would expect... then what ? Agreed

 

So my whole point is... Lou tried to fix the loss of what "Zach was bringing" strictly internally and we don't have the depth to do that.  And it's giving bigger roles to guys who can't fill those shoes.

 

Guys like Zajac, Kovy, Henrique, Elias, Zub, Poni, Clarkson, etc etc already had their roles WITH Zach aboard. You can't say "Travis will cover for Zach on the PP..." he was playing WITH HIM. He was already part of that play. 

[NJDevils1214]

pretty much, and no i don't oversimplify things like you seem obsess to tag me with that belief.

What we lost with Zach?

His forecheck: we're not winning battles as much deep in the zone, especially since we lost zub too.

His scoring: Zach was scoring goals that no one else on our team could score, those super quick rush/wraparound like against Philly last year), those goals are important when youre in a tight game.

His passing: Zach was making great plays and was working hard to help his linemates and he WAS making his linemates better. Bunch of our guys are struggling now, Zajac would be a lot better with Zach.

PK: debatable some say he was not great on the PK for a reason or another, to me a was a beast. Fine we can live without him on the PK but now we have guys like Gionta killing penalties every games.

PP: Again Zach was not incredible on the PP but was certainly drawing intention and could help. The problem is again since he's gone our depth is challenge, we saw terrible PK players on our PP many many times.

Shootouts: Well i dont really have to explain that one right? Kovy is awesome. Elias it's up in the air is seriously never know with him, Clarkson as one move, Henrique is not as good as we would expect... then what ?

So my whole point is... Lou tried to fix the loss of what "Zach was bringing" strictly internally and we don't have the depth to do that. And it's giving bigger roles to guys who can't fill those shoes.

Guys like Zajac, Kovy, Henrique, Elias, Zub, Poni, Clarkson, etc etc already had their roles WITH Zach aboard. You can't say "Travis will cover for Zach on the PP..." he was playing WITH HIM. He was already part of that play.

so Lou got us... Kostopoulos, Barch, Butler, burned a ELC year of Matteau who was not really ready and Lokti (like i said somewhere Lokti is fvcking awesome but im pretty damn sure Lou didnt know he could help that much right away, it was a depth move at the time) so those guys are NOT filling the void of what we lost with Zach.

Actually if you go back and watch the ppgs that kovy and Elias score Parise has a lot of assists.

[SterioDesign]

like i said it's more about having guys like Gionta on the PK rather than a good defensive player like Zach that is hurting our PK

 

also Parise was making great plays and was a good passer i don't know why someone would say the opposite.

Edited March 20, 2013 by SterioDesign

[Derlique]

like i said it's more about having guys like Gionta on the PK rather than a good defensive player like Zach that is hurting our PK

 

also Parise was making great plays and was a good passer i don't know why someone would say the opposite.

He's not a great passer at all. Where are you getting this from? I'd say he's average to slightly above average. His main assets are work ethic, speed, board play and hand eye coordination.  His shooting and passing abilities aren't anything special

[SterioDesign]

He's not a great passer at all. Where are you getting this from? I'd say he's average to slightly above average. His main assets are work ethic, speed, board play and hand eye coordination.  His shooting and passing abilities aren't anything special

 

fair enough to say he's slightly above average, but he was still a better passer than most of of our guys except Elias and Kovy and you can throw another name in there just for the sake of it. 

 

my point is with that above average passing gone we're stuck with more below average passers having to do more

[Derlique]

fair enough to say he's slightly above average, but he was still a better passer than most of of our guys except Elias and Kovy and you can throw another name in there just for the sake of it. 

 

my point is with that above average passing gone we're stuck with more below average passers having to do more

I think you're short changing Zajac and Loktionov 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

pretty much, and no i don't oversimplify things like you seem obsess to tag me with that belief.

 

What we lost with Zach?

 

His forecheck: we're not winning battles as much deep in the zone, especially since we lost zub too.

 

His scoring: Zach was scoring goals that no one else on our team could score, those super quick rush/wraparound like against Philly last year), those goals are important when youre in a tight game.

 

His passing: Zach was making great plays and was working hard to help his linemates and he WAS making his linemates better. Bunch of our guys are struggling now, Zajac would be a lot better with Zach.

 

PK: debatable some say he was not great on the PK for a reason or another, to me a was a beast. Fine we can live without him on the PK but now we have guys like Gionta killing penalties every games.

 

PP: Again Zach was not incredible on the PP but was certainly drawing intention and could help. The problem is again since he's gone our depth is challenge, we saw terrible PK players on our PP many many times.

 

Shootouts: Well i dont really have to explain that one right? Kovy is awesome. Elias it's up in the air is seriously never know with him, Clarkson as one move, Henrique is not as good as we would expect... then what ?

 

So my whole point is... Lou tried to fix the loss of what "Zach was bringing" strictly internally and we don't have the depth to do that.  And it's giving bigger roles to guys who can't fill those shoes.

 

Guys like Zajac, Kovy, Henrique, Elias, Zub, Poni, Clarkson, etc etc already had their roles WITH Zach aboard. You can't say "Travis will cover for Zach on the PP..." he was playing WITH HIM. He was already part of that play.

 

so Lou got us... Kostopoulos, Barch, Butler, burned a ELC year of Matteau who was not really ready and Lokti (like i said somewhere Lokti is fvcking awesome but im pretty damn sure Lou didnt know he could help that much right away, it was a depth move at the time) so those guys are NOT filling the void of what we lost with Zach.

 

Again, you are making the mistake of thinking Lou was looking to replace everything lost with Zach in one offseason (or that he should've been able to), and some of this season.  Like I pointed out, Lou himself pretty much pointed out that such a thing was not going to be possible.  Step 1 was probably hoping the team could pick up some of the slack by committee.  I think other steps will come, but it's not going to be an overnight, quick-fix thing.       

 

Like Tri said somewhere, this team as currently constructed is a low-event, low-scoring kind of team that can win (see Brent Sutter's first season), but has a pretty low margin for error.  Not picking on Hedberg, but it was going to be very hard for the Devils to overcome a goalie putting up an .886 save% in 17 GP, especially one not equipped enough to overcome too many mistakes from anyone.  Hedberg has an .862 save% and 3.36 GAA in his 9 losses (0-6-3).  Bad numbers to be sure, but with some better support he wins two or three of those games (in four of the losses, he allowed 2 goals or less). 

 

The Devils are going to need something more in the .910-.915 range most nights as far as save% goes, and even that is probably a little low, but Brodeur at best is probably a .910 guy at this point in his career.  If the Devils get .905-.912 play the rest of the season from a Brodeur/Hedberg tandem, that's likely the best we should hope for.   

[jagknife]

Our captain also is as useful as pissing into the wind.

 

We're missing a leader who plays with heart. I'm sick of watching this team get pushed around, bad calls being made, and the only person who protests is the offending player or Kovalchuk.

 

I don't remember the game or who got leveled, want to say Carter vs Ottawa, but it happened right in front of Captain Useless and he only reacted after Zids went to defend his teammate.

 

Sure, he's not the ONLY problem, but attitude reflects leadership and currently, our leadership is downright pathetic.

[maniacdevsdude]

Also, for everyone ragging on Lou, no one knows what he tried to do. Just because nothing happened doesn't mean he didn't look to sign Semin or call 20 GMs seeing if a scorer was available. The Parise signing not happening till July 3rd forced him to miss a few players. You don't badly overpay either to fix an issue. There is enough talent on this team to get a good amount of goals. It's a slump, but this just as easily could have happened with Parise.

 

As for Hedberg, he made a mistake tonight, but  he also made 3 ridiculous saves. He wasn't the reason they lost.

 

Finally, someone with a level head. I can't stand so-called Devils fans who crucify Lou every chance they get. Parise screwed the team and selfishly went to Minnesota and took the money and ran. What did you expect Lou to do? Snap his fingers and have a 30 goal scorer magically appear? I'm sure he did everything in his power to scour the list of available players and called every single team in order to try to work out a deal. How do you know Semin or other top available players weren't part of his offseason agenda? You don't. So please stop bashing him based on conspiracy theories. The fact is the Devils are a top notch organization, have won 3 Stanley Cups with a winning formula, have a very talented roster with great players, and the best GM in the NHL. Period. Anyone who doesn't think so is more than welcome to go root for the other team across the Hudson or for the losers in Long Island. I'm sure they would welcome you with open arms.

[Devil Dan 56]

Again, you are making the mistake of thinking Lou was looking to replace everything lost with Zach in one offseason (or that he should've been able to), and some of this season.  Like I pointed out, Lou himself pretty much pointed out that such a thing was not going to be possible.  Step 1 was probably hoping the team could pick up some of the slack by committee.  I think other steps will come, but it's not going to be an overnight, quick-fix thing.       

 

Like Tri said somewhere, this team as currently constructed is a low-event, low-scoring kind of team that can win (see Brent Sutter's first season), but has a pretty low margin for error.  Not picking on Hedberg, but it was going to be very hard for the Devils to overcome a goalie putting up an .886 save% in 17 GP, especially one not equipped enough to overcome too many mistakes from anyone.  Hedberg has an .862 save% and 3.36 GAA in his 9 losses (0-6-3).  Bad numbers to be sure, but with some better support he wins two or three of those games (in four of the losses, he allowed 2 goals or less). 

 

The Devils are going to need something more in the .910-.915 range most nights as far as save% goes, and even that is probably a little low, but Brodeur at best is probably a .910 guy at this point in his career.  If the Devils get .905-.912 play the rest of the season from a Brodeur/Hedberg tandem, that's likely the best we should hope for.   

 

I believe Butler was also expected to pick up some of the slack. Looking at his AHL and first season in Ottawa numbers and highlights, he should have been good for supplemental scoring. Now, I feel it's an unfair curve to say that Lou messed up on that one, but when he brings in Loki, it was unexpected luck that Loki produced to quickly.

 

As you said, the problem is that when you lose Zach Parise, you can't expect to just go find a 30 goal scorer who can fit into your team just laying around. It's a process, and a slow one. Devils fans have a hard time accepting that every year isn't going to be a cup contending one. The Devils have lost several elite or hall of fame players the last 8 - 10 years, and it's been starting to show for a few years. You don't just replace Stevens, Nieds, Rafalski, Gomez, Parise, etc.

 

I fear for the next Devils starting goalie. He will surely be graded on the Marty curve, and it won't be pretty around here.

[devilsrule33]

Finally, someone with a level head. I can't stand so-called Devils fans who crucify Lou every chance they get. Parise screwed the team and selfishly went to Minnesota and took the money and ran. What did you expect Lou to do? Snap his fingers and have a 30 goal scorer magically appear? I'm sure he did everything in his power to scour the list of available players and called every single team in order to try to work out a deal. How do you know Semin or other top available players weren't part of his offseason agenda? You don't. So please stop bashing him based on conspiracy theories. The fact is the Devils are a top notch organization, have won 3 Stanley Cups with a winning formula, have a very talented roster with great players, and the best GM in the NHL. Period. Anyone who doesn't think so is more than welcome to go root for the other team across the Hudson or for the losers in Long Island. I'm sure they would welcome you with open arms.

 

I swear I didn't create this account. Well said. Just too much bashing of Lou and Hedberg or anyone else. sh!t happens. There is still a fair amount of race track left. And I think Tri said it, if we miss the playoffs, I'll gladly take the team having the 14th pick. 

[Chuck the Duck]

I believe Butler was also expected to pick up some of the slack. Looking at his AHL and first season in Ottawa numbers and highlights, he should have been good for supplemental scoring. Now, I feel it's an unfair curve to say that Lou messed up on that one, but when he brings in Loki, it was unexpected luck that Loki produced to quickly.

 

As you said, the problem is that when you lose Zach Parise, you can't expect to just go find a 30 goal scorer who can fit into your team just laying around. It's a process, and a slow one. Devils fans have a hard time accepting that every year isn't going to be a cup contending one. The Devils have lost several elite or hall of fame players the last 8 - 10 years, and it's been starting to show for a few years. You don't just replace Stevens, Nieds, Rafalski, Gomez, Parise, etc.

 

I fear for the next Devils starting goalie. He will surely be graded on the Marty curve, and it won't be pretty around here.

 

This.  We've been extremely fortunate to be able to watch some of the best defensemen and goaltenders in NHL history play for this team over the past 20 years.  God help the the guy who replaces Brodeur.

 

Moose wasn't the sole reason we lost last night, but his misplay of the puck on the first goal definitely contributed.  He played well enough, and made some really good saves.  The biggest problem is that there is no organizational depth at forward right now, and it shows with the lack of offense being put up this season.  Losing Parise hurt, and its something you don't overcome right away.  We really are no better than a bubble team right now, and we'll have to win games 2-1 or 3-2 for the rest of the season if we have any hope of getting into the playoffs.

[Triumph]

The Devils next starting goalie will be fine if he is graded on the Brodeur of the last three years and next year curve.

[ZeroGravityFat]

 

lol whatever works i guess.

[GoArmySports]

Does anyone know what song they play when the team comes out for the third period?

[Zubie#8]

 

lol whatever works i guess.

He goes 35% on faceoffs but wins that one.