The Devils are bad and it's time to tank

[Daniel]

The team as currently constructed, does kind of suck but you don't decide to tank after you are already half way through a rebuild. We couldn't be in better position for the future on defense and we just locked up our goalie of the future for the next 8 years. Basically, we need to accumulate some decent assets so that we can acquire good forwards as they become available, Dallas Stars style. Getting lucky on a forward or two in the draft wouldn't hurt either. We need to add a few top 6 skilled forwards but there's absolutely no reason to tear it all down and start over.

I would agree with those saying that if we are still a few points out at the trade deadline, you pawn of Jagr, Zidlicky, Rydar and Havlat for whatever 2nd or 3rd round picks you can get. I doubt Brunner has any value but he could be shipped as well. No reason to part with Zajac or Cammallerri since they have a lot of years left and I believe Elias still has a lot of value to the team in terms of being a leader and role model for the young forwards.

 

As I noted before, I don't want a Sabres "blow it all up" approach.  So that means trading players that will not be here in the long term if there's a good deal to be had.  And that would even mean trading players like Brunner, Bernier (who's playing decently), et al. for 5th - 7th round picks.  Chances are whoever you draft in those rounds won't turn into much, but you increase your odds of finding someone that's at least useful. 

 

Otherwise, I'm not offended by the new guy for questioning my fan bona fides.  I posted more  dumb crap when I first got here than I do now.

[CRASHER]

Otherwise, I'm not offended by the new guy for questioning my fan bona fides.  I posted more  dumb crap when I first got here than I do now.

 

He should read your Tannehill hatred in the Dolphins thread

[EdgeControl]

the devils are 24th in the league in goals per game and 28th in shots per...yeah were dominating!!!

[SterioDesign]

selling players that you're going to lose anyways or dont want to resign to acquire assets to try to get better in the future doesn't mean you're tanking.

 

Not sure why some posters here keep on bringing that up. 

[themightyall]

The thread is called tanking.  And I totally agree.  We should've sold Parise in '12.  Who needs that deep playoff run?

 

But really, it's a mindset of giving up on the season.  I'm all for trading Brunner if anyone wants to give us anything, but Zidlicky and Jagr serve a role for this year's success.  If you are trading away anyone that serves a role, it sends a message that you aren't expecting much this year.

[DevsMan84]

The thread is called tanking.  And I totally agree.  We should've sold Parise in '12.  Who needs that deep playoff run?

 

But really, it's a mindset of giving up on the season.  I'm all for trading Brunner if anyone wants to give us anything, but Zidlicky and Jagr serve a role for this year's success.  If you are trading away anyone that serves a role, it sends a message that you aren't expecting much this year.

 

Zidlicky and Jagr could give decent to good returns at the trade deadline.  Unless we get an offer too good to pass up, we should keep them until the trade deadline and then see.  If we are out of a playoff spot then they should be as good as gone.

 

Brunner I really don't care when he is traded.  I just don't see any good value coming back from anyone at anytime this season.

[SterioDesign]

Funny that people always bring the "no playoffs run without Parise" but when he signed elsewhere the same people were going "good riddance he was always a ghost in the playoffs and not clutch at all"

 

... wut ?  

[ATLL765]

 

Dear Daniel (wth)

 

Dude (Daniel) you are dead wrong my man.......i definitely have to ask you a bunch of questions to understand your logic!!!

 

1. First off are you a Devils fan?

 

2. Saying we aren't a playoff time and we are a long shot is complete BS!!!!

 

3. I know last year we missed the playoff by 4 points or something......I know i know we had a terrible start last year but the last month or so of that year we we're looking awesome. Theres alot to this number, ill try and make sense. Definitely a big part of us missing last year was the damn overtime and shootouts losses. Devils usually been good over the years in OT. (Real quick also if my stats are off alil don't rip me I'm just going off memory and don't wanna look all this up haha), so anyways....We we're what 0-15 or 0-18 in shootouts and our OT wasn't much better i think we won 2 or 3 and lost the rest. All those damn OT extra points we lost on really was our demise last year just missing the 8th seed. Soooo now, our PP struggled alot last year but our PK was number one most of the year, dont know if we finished with it but we we're in the top 3 for sure. Also in the top for Goals Allowed. And like i said in the beginning we had a horribleeeeeeeeee start and first quarter. And after the All-Star break i think, we caught fire and the last month or so we came on strong..............and thats always good, to go into the playoffs when we are hott and the players contributing more points. I think we we're definitely probably the best team to not make the playoffs. SOOOO NOWWW!!!!!!

 

4. why i wrote most of this out is because i think we should of been in the playoffs last year we dominated pretty much most games last year but of course didn't get the win so it doesn't matter i know that happens...we just had no scoring. But now this year i think we made some nice pickups veterans wise and rookies/2,3 year players. We already are scoring alot more then we usually do, the first ten games this year will show you that.  SO what im saying with all this is i think we made some good moves and we have to be alot better then last year, we got roster depth, our PP is doing awesome, we struggled alot last year with that.....our PK is awesome again and will stay that way.. Our pickups are scoring when they aren't hurt. And the young guys and 3 and 4th lines contributing. So basically what all this crap i wrote I'm asking you what you think I said about the Devils last year (especially end of year) and compare that to this year, and keep in mind the pickups and the scoring so far for us. If you said we should of been in last year....which im thinking you haven't the way you talk about the Devils. But i think we improved alottttttttttt from last year.......and we should of made it last year we have to have a really good chance for a playoff spot. Also another thing that i did touch on especially last year and i saw at least 3 to 5 games this year already. Games where we totally dominate TOP, shots, hits, faceoff wins, scoring chances  and we lost not saying that just because the stats look in our favor and we outshoot them 45 to 23 we should win, but we should win 90 percent of them. and how many games we blew a one goal lead in the 3rd and otop of that not even making it to overtime n let them steal a win when we had the game won.......we had a bunch of those last year and at least 3 this year i saw a one goal lead in the 3rd and come away with no points not even the 1 pt OT loss. those losses hurt us. If we stop can stop that will be looking very nice this year i believe. Also touching back on another note.......i rather have a semi slow start and finish strong, because you come into the playoffs on a roll, it tends to rollover into the playoffs and the team more confident playing great hokey......as to say winning the first 40 games and then go on a slump. I know thats obviously unrealistic just saying a strong start and then we look like sh!t the last month and say we still get a good seed.....we'd prolly lose the first round.....come into the last month or two playing awesome hockey, we will good in the playoffs

 

Side note: we did have a rough schedule to start this year and got a long road trip out the way that was tough and the schedule is looking better in the coming months.

 

Another thing just throwing it in there last year we dominated all our rival teams and  most of the division we could beat the rangers basically ever time (most games were close but we pulled them out), Flyers we won 4 of the games and an OT loss i believe and Pitt I think we won the series, not gonna mention the other teams right now, one ill throw in is the Islanders even the past few years give us trouble, and now looking really solid.....and the Devils i think tend to play better against the top teams n lose games to the ones we shouldn't. 

 

 

So what do you think.....I hope you do read this....and sorry if its all over the place i think i did alright for a quick rant. Pleas lemme know your thoughts. 

 

MY FINAL THOUGHT FOR YOU!!!!!!! 

Back to my first question? Are you a Devils fan?

I really hope you aren't a Devils fan, because what I read from your posts doesn't sound like a true Devil fan to me.......We are the damn Devils brooooo we've been one of the most winningest teams in the past 20 to 25 years. I know we had a few in the past few years not making the playoffs we came up short by 2 games two of those times I believe.....but anyways I never heard a Devil fan talk like you....have faith my son...the Devils will get there S**t together soon and keep the rolling believe me. 

And I like our chances this year, i think we improved in alot of ways and were actually scoring a decent amount of goals in most games. We are basically always in contention and I've been watching the Devils since about 93'.  I never give up on our boys, we can usually pull it out or at least make a good run at it. I seen alot of amazing things over the past 20 years with the Devils. We always had the odds against us but we came thru and not just one time.....we usually have some good runs in the playoffs.

 

 

(Just random) Friggen love Jagr  though, 42 year old led our team in points last year haha and he'll probably do it again.

 

 

LETTTTTTT'SSSSSSSSSS  GOOOOOOOOOOO DEVILSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Never give upon the Devils my friend.

 

Once again sorry if my message is alittle bit all over the place and whatever. I wrote this quick and its super late right now.

 

I hope theres people on this board that think im right here! Let me know if so!

 

Questioning posters on whether they're really a fan is going to do nothing but get posters here to give you a ton of sh!t. Don't do it.

Also, our PP last year was not something we struggled with that much. I'm pretty sure it was a top 10 PP, that's pretty good.

Another note: We are not scoring more than we did last year. In fact, we're scoring at nearly an identical rate at about 2.4 goals per game.

I know you didn't want to be hassled with looking up a ton of stats, but you could have at least fact checked your major points instead of just making claims based on your fuzzy, incorrect memories.

[Devil Dan 56]

Funny that people always bring the "no playoffs run without Parise" but when he signed elsewhere the same people were going "good riddance he was always a ghost in the playoffs and not clutch at all"

... wut ?

What does trading your top left wing when you have a playoff spot tell the rest of the team?

"I know you guys are playing hard and some of you are in your last runs, but screw it, let's focus on 5 years from now"

[SterioDesign]

What does trading your top left wing when you have a playoff spot tell the rest of the team?

"I know you guys are playing hard and some of you are in your last runs, but screw it, let's focus on 5 years from now"

 

they all know its a business, they all know that at the end of the day if they are gonna be on the team for awhile. If they know the circonstances that they'll lose him no matter what. They'd rather not lose Zach for nothing either. No one in the league would want to lose that kind of player for nothing.

[Lateralous]

"Half way through a rebuild" - in what sense have we even started a rebuild?  We've started to incorporate some young players on defense.  That's literally all we've done.

 

The cupboard is empty on forward prospects.  There's literally not a single guaranteed top-6 player in our system right now (say what you will about Boucher, but he hasn't shown much at the NHL level yet).  To the bolded - how would you suggest we go about doing that if not through the draft (via a full on rebuild)?

How is it not? We used the 9th overall pick to replace Brodeur with a younger goalie getting ready to enter his prime. Presumably at the start of next year we will have slowly but fully transitioned away from Tallender, Volch, Sal and Zidlicky to Merrill, Gelinas, Larsson and Severson on D. Up front Henrique is assuming a larger role and we at least have a few guys like Matteau, Boucher and Quenville who project to play 2nd and 3rd line roles. Yes, we are half way through a rebuild, not sure that's even debatable.

As to the second part, the idea that good forwards only come from the absolute top of the draft is silly. I referenced the Stars because they just rebuilt their offense by landing Seguin in trade for a guy they drafted in the 2nd round and developed, they picked Jamie Benn in the 5th, got Spezza in a trade for essentially two 2nds, a 3rd and a 4th and Val Nichushkin with the 13th overall. Yes, we absolutely have to draft better with respect to forwards, I'm not arguing that. It doesn't mean we have to go full tank which was the title of the thread.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Lateralous

[Devil Dan 56]

they all know its a business, they all know that at the end of the day if they are gonna be on the team for awhile. If they know the circonstances that they'll lose him no matter what. They'd rather not lose Zach for nothing either. No one in the league would want to lose that kind of player for nothing.

 

Aren't you always talking about how bad it is to upset the players?

 

No one in the league would want to sacrifice a playoff run, either. 

[SterioDesign]

Aren't you always talking about how bad it is to upset the players?

 

No one in the league would want to sacrifice a playoff run, either. 

 

There's things that can upset players but they know it's something that had to be done. How is it not understandable? It's not like sitting a top prospect for a 56 years old vet and hurting his development. There's bad personal decisions and there's bad business decisions. Those are 2 different things.

 

Losing Zach was the first domino falling which brought down the franchise to what it is now. Players knows and Brodeur and Elias said in interviews that you can't lose a player like that for nothing either. There's no way around it. The one year deal should have never happened. If there was no way around because management couldnt afford it or wtv well theres nothing much you can do, trade for assets hoping to minimize the damages of losing a player like him

 

You guys keep acting like Lou had a clear choice. 1. keeping Zach 2. Making it to the cup finals. He didn't know that that summer. 

Edited November 21, 2014 by SterioDesign

[Jas0nMacIsaac]

Tanking is not the right way to do this, just draft and develop better like Tampa Bay.

[Daniel]

Tanking is not the right way to do this, just draft and develop better like Tampa Bay.

 

 

Notice how Tampa's roster has players who were picked numbers 1, 2 and 4 overall all of whom are under 25.  And they sold high on an aging player for two first round picks, albeit he forced their hand, and not everyone has a player that can fetch that kind of return. 

 

Again, we're not talking about getting rid of everyone.  Just players that are likely not going to be here after this year, when there's a legitimate shot at a generational talent.  If the foundation of a good team is already in place (debatable, but that seems to be your premise) then there's no downside to taking that approach.

[themightyall]

We know that it hurt losing Zach.  I don't blame Lou though.  I'm not sure this was the case, but I just see it as you respect the player that says, "I want to play it out and then decide between NJ and home".  You don't want to be the GM to sacrifice the present nor the possibility of re-signing the player just because that's what he wanted.  Yeah it hurts, but I would've rolled the dice on him staying too in that scenario.

 

Regardless, we don't have a Parise on this team.  If the Devils are going to beat the good teams, it is going to be with getting players to buy in to the system.  So when we trade away these guys that do buy in to the system, we're just left with being Oilers East.

 

We are on a downswing and it's not good we have 10 of 13 away still coming up.  But being in within shooting distance after this will bode well.

 

Edit:  What makes you think we are going to get a generational talent by trading someone like Zid for a 2nd?

Edited November 21, 2014 by themightyall

[Triumph]

Notice how Tampa's roster has players who were picked numbers 1, 2 and 4 overall all of whom are under 25.  And they sold high on an aging player for two first round picks, albeit he forced their hand, and not everyone has a player that can fetch that kind of return. 

 

Again, we're not talking about getting rid of everyone.  Just players that are likely not going to be here after this year, when there's a legitimate shot at a generational talent.  If the foundation of a good team is already in place (debatable, but that seems to be your premise) then there's no downside to taking that approach.

 

Tampa would be doing fine without those high draft picks - sure, they'd be an average team, but that isn't really the point here.  What Jason is talking about is guys like Tyler Johnson, Nikita Kucherov, Alex Killorn, etc. - the kind of thing the Devils haven't been finding in the draft lately.  And selling high on Cory Conacher.  The Devils have the D foundation in place to be pretty good in a few years with just an average forward corps - it's up to them to start developing that.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Triumph

[Devil Dan 56]

There's things that can upset players but they know it's something that had to be done. How is it not understandable? It's not like sitting a top prospect for a 56 years old vet and hurting his development. There's bad personal decisions and there's bad business decisions. Those are 2 different things.

Losing Zach was the first domino falling which brought down the franchise to what it is now. Players knows and Brodeur and Elias said in interviews that you can't lose a player like that for nothing either. There's no way around it. The one year deal should have never happened. If there was no way around because management couldnt afford it or wtv well theres nothing much you can do, trade for assets hoping to minimize the damages of losing a player like him

You guys keep acting like Lou had a clear choice. 1. keeping Zach 2. Making it to the cup finals. He didn't know that that summer.

And you keep acting like he had a clear choice of lose Zach for nothing or bring in a guaranteed treasure chest of first one picks and prospects.

[Triumph]

And you keep acting like he had a clear choice of lose Zach for nothing or bring in a guaranteed treasure chest of first one picks and prospects.

 

Right - this is really what's at issue.  If Sterio thinks Lou could move Parise for another player in his situation (say, Brent Burns), then great - you take your chance with that guy wanting to sign, but you've at least given yourself 2 chances to get a guy long-term.  If you move him for picks and prospects, I don't think people like Brodeur and Elias are happy - they are nearing the end of their careers.  Those picks and prospects are not likely to make an impact on the team during their careers.  

 

Now you have the question of if Lou was even willing to move Parise for picks and prospects, would ownership allow it?  Vanderbeek was out of money, that's almost certainly part of why they couldn't come to a long-term agreement in the first place.  He's willing to move what is probably the team's best player for not much immediate help?  That's the thing - this isn't Montreal or Toronto.  The owner doesn't make money just by icing a team.   Every year it's a challenge to get people to buy tickets.  

[NJDevs4978]

Not to mention there was nothing overtly precluding Parise from re-signing later on (especially if money was an issue and ownership somehow got straightened out by FA).  Elias got to July 1 and re-signed.  When you trade a guy you pretty much completely cash out on ever re-signing him but if you keep him you still have a chance.  Plus if for some reason the Devils had fallen out of it in 2012 they could have still traded Parise at the deadline although they probably would have had to be ten points back given how loath Lou is to do that.

 

But of course we're just going to go round-and-round on the merry-go-round with Sterio forever cause that's the way he wants it.

Edited November 22, 2014 by NJDevs4978

[SterioDesign]

And you keep acting like he had a clear choice of lose Zach for nothing or bring in a guaranteed treasure chest of first one picks and prospects.

 

 

Never said there was a guaranteed anything but 1 year of a signed zach could have fetch something pretty damn decent and well.... decent is even luxury there. At least it would have brought something. We got nothing. 

 

Were lacking assets to trade and we have holes in our rosters? why do you think? cause we lost a bunch of key players and replaced them with subpar old players and have no assets to trade.

[Devil Dan 56]

Never said there was a guaranteed anything but 1 year of a signed zach could have fetch something pretty damn decent and well.... decent is even luxury there. At least it would have brought something. We got nothing.

Were lacking assets to trade and we have holes in our rosters? why do you think? cause we lost a bunch of key players and replaced them with subpar old players and have no assets to trade.

And what team in playoff contention sells off assets?

[SterioDesign]

And what team in playoff contention sells off assets?

 

San Jose with Clowe is one.

 

And well at the end of the day we can argue all we want. The one thing i have that you guys don't is the benefit of the doubt. With "your way" (aka backing wtv Lou does) We see the results right now and we see the sh!t situation were in, wtv he did, DID. NOT. PAN. OUT. Having extra assets right now would be amazing. Would it pay off 100% sure? of course not. But at least it's still putting chances on our side. Which is not what Lou did in the last few years. He gambled all in every time and lost every time.

Edited November 22, 2014 by SterioDesign

[Devil Dan 56]

San Jose with Clowe is one.

And

well at the end of the day we can argue all we want. The one thing i have that you guys don't is the benefit of the doubt. With "your way" (aka backing wtv Lou does) We see the results right now and we see the sh!t situation were in, wtv he did, DID. NOT. PAN. OUT. Having extra assets right now would be amazing. Would it pay off 100% sure? of course not. But at least it's still putting chances on our side. Which is not what Lou did in the last few years. He gambled all in every time and lost every time.

In what world is the Sharks trading a very badly underperforming Clowe who they weren't going to re-sign even remotely close to the Devils giving up Parise who they did want to re-sign?

You're also vastly over pricing what teams would give up for a Zach Parise rental. It would have been a late first round pick (which as you know doesn't yield the stars you want) and a roster player or prospect. If anything, it'd be some player you'd probably complain about because Lou gave up Parise for him.

[ATLL765]

Notice how Tampa's roster has players who were picked numbers 1, 2 and 4 overall all of whom are under 25. And they sold high on an aging player for two first round picks, albeit he forced their hand, and not everyone has a player that can fetch that kind of return.

Again, we're not talking about getting rid of everyone. Just players that are likely not going to be here after this year, when there's a legitimate shot at a generational talent. If the foundation of a good team is already in place (debatable, but that seems to be your premise) then there's no downside to taking that approach.

Speaking of St. Louis, he brought back 2 1st rd picks+ Callahan on an expiring contract though one of the 1st rounders was conditional on the rags getting to the ecf.

Do you think Elias could bring back a similar return? I'd honestly think about it if it nets us another 1st in this draft+ a solid roster player. Two 1st rd picks in this draft could be huge for us.

Edited November 22, 2014 by ATLL765