thecoffeecake Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I don't care if it's loud or quiet, though. I am a STH and i pay good money to see my team win first and foremost. I don't pay to care about atmosphere, I am not sure if I've ever been a fan of yours, but this is some sheer bullsh!t that made me lose the last amount of respect for you I may have had. I didn't come on here looking for a confrontation, but me, being a fan for as long as a can remember, this is just downright offensive. If you're a season ticket holder, you better have a vested interest in what our fanbase does, and the atmosphere we provide. If you genuinely do not care at all, then do us all a favor, and don't renew for next year. I'd rather have one less season ticket holder than an apathetic nothing. Sit on your hands at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRedStorm Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) I am not sure if I've ever been a fan of yours, but this is some sheer bullsh!t that made me lose the last amount of respect for you I may have had. I didn't come on here looking for a confrontation, but me, being a fan for as long as a can remember, this is just downright offensive. If you're a season ticket holder, you better have a vested interest in what our fanbase does, and the atmosphere we provide. If you genuinely do not care at all, then do us all a favor, and don't renew for next year. I'd rather have one less season ticket holder than an apathetic nothing. Sit on your hands at home. LOL fan. LOL respect. LOL offensive. From you. That's rich. Want me to stay home? I was an STH when you were a gleam in the eyes of two strangers at a Bon Jovi concert, First, buy 24 years worth of money i've put into tickets....no wait, how about just one season? You'll have to save allowances. Maybe come to a game, first, then and we can work on the season next. Edited March 27, 2014 by TheRedStorm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevsMan84 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I am not sure if I've ever been a fan of yours, but this is some sheer bullsh!t that made me lose the last amount of respect for you I may have had. I didn't come on here looking for a confrontation, but me, being a fan for as long as a can remember, this is just downright offensive. If you're a season ticket holder, you better have a vested interest in what our fanbase does, and the atmosphere we provide. If you genuinely do not care at all, then do us all a favor, and don't renew for next year. I'd rather have one less season ticket holder than an apathetic nothing. Sit on your hands at home. The part you are not quite understanding is that not everyone has the same definition of whats good :atmosphere" at the arena. I doubt even the dead-set anti-"You suck" crowd would want a library of an arena, but not everyone enjoys the obnoxious atmosphere of a college basketball game either. There are games I attend simply because the game will be quieter and not filled with the obnoxious college crowd and the silly man-children to basically ruin my enjoyment and be in constant fear of having someone killing my eardrums or drunkenly spilling crap all over me. That's not fun to me and it's not fun to many others and you have to respect that as well. Years ago (I am saying like 10+ years) I think there was a happy medium for the most part on a lot of game nights, but now it seems there are just two types of crowds: the quiet library one and the college basketball obnoxious crap crowd. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRedStorm Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 The part you are not quite understanding is that not everyone has the same definition of whats good :atmosphere" at the arena. I doubt even the dead-set anti-"You suck" crowd would want a library of an arena, but not everyone enjoys the obnoxious atmosphere of a college basketball game either. There are games I attend simply because the game will be quieter and not filled with the obnoxious college crowd and the silly man-children to basically ruin my enjoyment and be in constant fear of having someone killing my eardrums or drunkenly spilling crap all over me. That's not fun to me and it's not fun to many others and you have to respect that as well. Years ago (I am saying like 10+ years) I think there was a happy medium for the most part on a lot of game nights, but now it seems there are just two types of crowds: the quiet library one and the college basketball obnoxious crap crowd. Exactly. Well said. Also, i think some of these kids and people who wax on about atmosphere should go to other cities, for both good and bad. I've been in about half of the buildings in the league and if some of the "atmosphere" people went to say, Pittsburgh, the first thing they'd say is "They've got Crosby, Malkin, yet the building isn't rocking!". Why? Because nothing short of a college basketball type setting will appease these people. What separates a good hockey crowd from bad hockey crowd isn't a bunch of man-children and college kids obsessed with noise and the opposition like Devils fans. It's knowledgeable fans that make a fanbase. The "atmosphere people" wouldn't enjoy Montreal (best in the league), because they wouldn't "get" that type of crowd. Chicago even Minnesota, for examples. Knowledgeable fans make the fan base good to great and when the team is good the atmosphere follows. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlman Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Exactly. Well said. Also, i think some of these kids and people who wax on about atmosphere should go to other cities, for both good and bad. I've been in about half of the buildings in the league and if some of the "atmosphere" people went to say, Pittsburgh, the first thing they'd say is "They've got Crosby, Malkin, yet the building isn't rocking!". Why? Because nothing short of a college basketball type setting will appease these people. What separates a good hockey crowd from bad hockey crowd isn't a bunch of man-children and college kids obsessed with noise and the opposition like Devils fans. It's knowledgeable fans that make a fanbase. The "atmosphere people" wouldn't enjoy Montreal (best in the league), because they wouldn't "get" that type of crowd. Chicago even Minnesota, for examples. Knowledgeable fans make the fan base good to great and when the team is good the atmosphere follows. If you've never been to those cities then dont use them as examples, because they actually hurt your argument. Montreal and Chicago are full of 'man-children' (as you call anyone who is an adult and makes noise at a hockey game). Lots of knowledgeable people, sure, but also LOTS of drunk college kids. The common theme with you is not being anti-YS, its having some win-loss mentality against your own fan base, while having some weird personal vendetta against 'man-children' (hilarious term btw...sounds like some mythological creature thats a hybrid cross). You cannot seem to separate these things from chanting You Suck. Chanting YS does not make you a loud and obnoxious person. Grandma and little girls all partake in the fun when a goal is scored. STOP TAKING THE CHANT SO LITERALLY AND PERSONALLY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilsfan26 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Exactly. Well said. Also, i think some of these kids and people who wax on about atmosphere should go to other cities, for both good and bad. I've been in about half of the buildings in the league and if some of the "atmosphere" people went to say, Pittsburgh, the first thing they'd say is "They've got Crosby, Malkin, yet the building isn't rocking!". Why? Because nothing short of a college basketball type setting will appease these people. What separates a good hockey crowd from bad hockey crowd isn't a bunch of man-children and college kids obsessed with noise and the opposition like Devils fans. It's knowledgeable fans that make a fanbase. The "atmosphere people" wouldn't enjoy Montreal (best in the league), because they wouldn't "get" that type of crowd. Chicago even Minnesota, for examples. Knowledgeable fans make the fan base good to great and when the team is good the atmosphere follows. I've been to games in Montreal, Chicago, and Minnesota, and the place was packed and loud for all of those games. The atmosphere was great because of the energy of the crowd, not because of how knowledgeable they were. It was refreshing in Minnesota never having to hear some clown yell "SHOOT!" at any point in the game though. But let's be honest, we have neither an energetic crowd nor a knowledgeable fanbase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlman Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 SCORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Big girls dooooooooooon't cry! This should be our only song played at all times in the arena. Only wholesome music will do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRedStorm Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) If you've never been to those cities then dont use them as examples, because they actually hurt your argument. Montreal and Chicago are full of 'man-children' (as you call anyone who is an adult and makes noise at a hockey game). Lots of knowledgeable people, sure, but also LOTS of drunk college kids. The common theme with you is not being anti-YS, its having some win-loss mentality against your own fan base, while having some weird personal vendetta against 'man-children' (hilarious term btw...sounds like some mythological creature thats a hybrid cross). You cannot seem to separate these things from chanting You Suck. Chanting YS does not make you a loud and obnoxious person. Grandma and little girls all partake in the fun when a goal is scored. STOP TAKING THE CHANT SO LITERALLY AND PERSONALLY! No. And since you always take some kind of deep, personal offense to what i say on this subject, you're definitely in the boat in which all my personal opinions are aimed. Edited March 27, 2014 by TheRedStorm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilsfan118 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) Yeah I've been trying to avoid having this debate again, but using the term 'man-child' when discussing anyone who enjoys a rowdy environment is comical. It'd be comparable to me calling anyone who is against a loud arena an old geezer - obviously not true. What separates a good hockey crowd from bad hockey crowd isn't a bunch of man-children and college kids obsessed with noise and the opposition like Devils fans. It's knowledgeable fans that make a fanbase. The "atmosphere people" wouldn't enjoy Montreal (best in the league), because they wouldn't "get" that type of crowd. Chicago even Minnesota, for examples. Knowledgeable fans make the fan base good to great and when the team is good the atmosphere follows. You should avoid blatantly talking out your ass.. as someone else said, it doesn't help prove your point (whatever that may be) at all. Edited March 27, 2014 by Devilsfan118 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil Dan 56 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Exactly. Well said. Also, i think some of these kids and people who wax on about atmosphere should go to other cities, for both good and bad. I've been in about half of the buildings in the league and if some of the "atmosphere" people went to say, Pittsburgh, the first thing they'd say is "They've got Crosby, Malkin, yet the building isn't rocking!". Why? Because nothing short of a college basketball type setting will appease these people. What separates a good hockey crowd from bad hockey crowd isn't a bunch of man-children and college kids obsessed with noise and the opposition like Devils fans. It's knowledgeable fans that make a fanbase. The "atmosphere people" wouldn't enjoy Montreal (best in the league), because they wouldn't "get" that type of crowd. Chicago even Minnesota, for examples. Knowledgeable fans make the fan base good to great and when the team is good the atmosphere follows. But even those examples you listed have their man-children and "sucks" chants. Chicago is well known for it's atmosphere and it's "Detroit Sucks" chants. I really don't think it's just the Devils. It's a drift of sports fans in general. Less people want to show up and just enjoy a game. It seems that more fans want to be "involved" and that's their way of doing it. It's not my thing, but who am I to tell them they can't? "Sucks" and things like that just come with the territory now. Some recent-ish games that come to mind in Jersey with great atmosphere were Marty's first game back from the injury in 2009, the 552 game a couple of weeks later, and Game 6 against the Rags in 2012. All 3 had fantastic atmosphere, whether it involved a lot of "sucks" stuff or not. (obviously the Ranger game had a lot more of that stuff, but it was no less enjoyable) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevsMan84 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Yeah I've been trying to avoid having this debate again, but using the term 'man-child' when discussing anyone who enjoys a rowdy environment is comical. It'd be comparable to me calling anyone who is against a loud arena an old geezer - obviously not true. You should avoid blatantly talking out your ass.. as someone else said, it doesn't help prove your point (whatever that may be) at all. About that bolded. I don't mind a loud arena. However, what I see at the arena on a lot of these "great atmosphere" nights are beyond rowdy. My family had season tickets from about 91 to 2003 and I really do not remember most nights having to worry if some drunken idiot was going to pick a fight with someone near me or was going to be spilling his food/drink all over me or if he will be basically yelling in my ear the whole game. Back then those nights were rare and now it seems more of the norm. Again I do not want a library at the arena but what most people who claim to say that the arena is lacking "atmosphere" are a lot of times really saying they miss the drunken studpidity that has gone on at the arena lately since they moved. Not everyone wants that kind of atmosphere and to be honest, "atmosphere" is one of the last few reasons I even go to games. I go to games to watch the team I love, to meet certain people I have become friendly with there, to see the sights and just relax and enjoy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRedStorm Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I've been to games in Montreal, Chicago, and Minnesota, and the place was packed and loud for all of those games. The atmosphere was great because of the energy of the crowd, not because of how knowledgeable they were. It was refreshing in Minnesota never having to hear some clown yell "SHOOT!" at any point in the game though. But let's be honest, we have neither an energetic crowd nor a knowledgeable fanbase. The difference is these buildings/teams have better fan bases because they are more knowledgeable. Want to know why you didn't hear SHOOOT! in Minnesota? Well, there you go. Less noise yelling something stupid. After 24 years of buying NHL tickets, knowledgeable fans have a lot to do with atmosphere and noise and i do not see how this is even a debate. The Devils do not have a knowledgeable fanbase and i truly believe this atmosphere some people want to create is a way to cover this aspect up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRedStorm Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) You should avoid blatantly talking out your ass.. as someone else said, it doesn't help prove your point (whatever that may be) at all. LOL, please. Maybe i'll have to make shameful comments like you made towards Mike Brown to be able to take your constructive advice a bit more seriously. Edited March 27, 2014 by TheRedStorm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevsMan84 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 But even those examples you listed have their man-children and "sucks" chants. Chicago is well known for it's atmosphere and it's "Detroit Sucks" chants. I really don't think it's just the Devils. It's a drift of sports fans in general. Less people want to show up and just enjoy a game. It seems that more fans want to be "involved" and that's their way of doing it. It's not my thing, but who am I to tell them they can't? "Sucks" and things like that just come with the territory now. Some recent-ish games that come to mind in Jersey with great atmosphere were Marty's first game back from the injury in 2009, the 552 game a couple of weeks later, and Game 6 against the Rags in 2012. All 3 had fantastic atmosphere, whether it involved a lot of "sucks" stuff or not. (obviously the Ranger game had a lot more of that stuff, but it was no less enjoyable) Those two examples are great examples of what I would consider a good atmosphere. People were in great spirits, were loud and it was devoid of a lot of the obnoxiousness that comes with a lot of people's definition of atmosphere. You are right as it is a general sports drift and I agree with Phil Mushnick who has written about it quite a bit as to the origins. Basically it started when ESPN a while ago decided to focus on the crowd almost or just as much as the players. When the cameras are on the crowd, whoi usually gets face time? It's usually the body-painted, drunken, me-me-me type people and this is what most people come to think of what a real "hard-core" fan really is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil Dan 56 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Those two examples are great examples of what I would consider a good atmosphere. People were in great spirits, were loud and it was devoid of a lot of the obnoxiousness that comes with a lot of people's definition of atmosphere. You are right as it is a general sports drift and I agree with Phil Mushnick who has written about it quite a bit as to the origins. Basically it started when ESPN a while ago decided to focus on the crowd almost or just as much as the players. When the cameras are on the crowd, whoi usually gets face time? It's usually the body-painted, drunken, me-me-me type people and this is what most people come to think of what a real "hard-core" fan really is. The Oakland Raiders "black hole" comes to mind. The Raiders can't be mentioned without them now. Even highlights will usually include a cut to them. (not that there's much to see with the Raiders otherwise... haha) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevsMan84 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 The Oakland Raiders "black hole" comes to mind. The Raiders can't be mentioned without them now. Even highlights will usually include a cut to them. (not that there's much to see with the Raiders otherwise... haha) lol exactly. It is unfortunate that these types of fans are now the standard model of a "hardcore" fan these days and everyone is trying to copy these types of people. It's basically saying you are not a fan unless you are drunk, stupid and going overboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilsfan118 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) Again I do not want a library at the arena but what most people who claim to say that the arena is lacking "atmosphere" are a lot of times really saying they miss the drunken stupidity that has gone on at the arena lately since they moved. Not everyone wants that kind of atmosphere and to be honest, "atmosphere" is one of the last few reasons I even go to games. I go to games to watch the team I love, to meet certain people I have become friendly with there, to see the sights and just relax and enjoy it. That's fair, and I understand what you're saying - I agree with you and others that having an arena filled with drunk buffoons making idiots of themselves shouldn't be the end goal. I think somewhere in the middle is the solution (obviously). To the bolded specifically, we'll have to agree to disagree. Which is no problem at all, obviously people go to the games for different reasons which is fine. It just bugs me when the needs and wants of one of the two parties (if we're going to have to break it into two groups) trumps those of the other. And before people jump on me for that last part, I don't think removing 'you suck' is 'infringing' on any group in particular..I think that's an argument people should just let go. Do I miss the chant? Sure, but it's not going to stop me from going to games. I'm just worried it's the start of a larger trend to quiet down the crowd to create a more 'mature, business friendly' environment. Aka, MSG. You're funny, but i guess not as funny as you saying Mike Brown has a mental disorder based on the nerds you shared dorm space with, right? You're incapable of having a discussion without trying to get personal, huh? You're only helping prove my point about you that I brought up in that other thread. For the record - IIRC, I never said he had a mental disorder. I implied he was socially awkward (like my engineering classmates at Rutgers, for sure). Someone else replied with a mental disorder. Look it up, verify it for me if you'd be so kind. Edited March 27, 2014 by Devilsfan118 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRedStorm Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) You're incapable of having a discussion without trying to get personal, huh? You're only helping prove my point about you that I brought up in that other thread. For the record - IIRC, I never said he had a mental disorder. I implied he was socially awkward (like my engineering classmates at Rutgers, for sure). Someone else replied with a mental disorder. Look it up, verify it for me if you'd be so kind. So my comment to you is taken as "personal" but you telling me i "talk out of my ass" isn't? LOL. Look, before you cast stones and all.... especially so, when you edit out the original shameful comment about Mike Brown in that thread. Oh no, you implied more then that, the word "mental" was there. But at least it's nice to know you that you have your feelings on record now. For the BEST part yet? After making that comment about Mike Brown, you had the nerve to talk about ME getting personal with you. Jesus H. Christ. Edited March 27, 2014 by TheRedStorm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilsfan118 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 So my comment to you is taken by you as "personal" but you telling me i "talk out of my ass" isn't? LOL. Look, before you cast stones and all.... especially so, when you edit out the original shameful comment about Mike Brown in that thread. But at least it's nice to know you corrected that mistake here. For the BEST part yet? After making that comment about Mike Brown, you had the nerve to talk about ME getting personal with you. Jesus H. Christ. And here we go, another thread derailed by you. Congratulations. One more reply: Another poster quoted me, you can easily find it. I removed mine after another member asked me to on the same freakin page not even a few hours later - try again. Or you can keep bringing it up to make yourself try and feel better, totally up to you champ. It's not doing me any harm.. I've said nothing worth regretting. You're difficult. That's all you are. You'd rather exchange personal attacks than discuss a topic. That's it, that's all I need to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRedStorm Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) And here we go, another thread derailed by you. Congratulations. One more reply: Another poster quoted me, you can easily find it. I removed mine after another member asked me to on the same freakin page not even a few hours later - try again. Or you can keep bringing it up to make yourself try and feel better, totally up to you champ. It's not doing me any harm.. I've said nothing worth regretting. You're difficult. That's all you are. You'd rather exchange personal attacks than discuss a topic. That's it, that's all I need to say. LOL.....just LOL. It's not even worth more then that. It's just not. Edited March 27, 2014 by TheRedStorm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brown Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck the Duck Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 The Oakland Raiders "black hole" comes to mind. The Raiders can't be mentioned without them now. Even highlights will usually include a cut to them. (not that there's much to see with the Raiders otherwise... haha) That's because the Raiders have been soo terrible and have given the media nothing to talk about since John Madden was their coach. If the Raiders had a successful team and won a SB or 2 over the past 30 years, the focus wouldn't be soo much on the fans as it would be on the product they put on the field. For example, people used to talk about the Eagles' fans all the time, and about the jail/courtroom that they have in their stadium, but as their team has gotten better you almost never hear about it anymore. It may be a story from time to time, but the play on the field is the main story now. The Raiders have sucked (sorry if I offended anyone here by using that term) so bad for so long, that their fans have become the best thing for the media to focus on when describing the team. It's pathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilsfan26 Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 The difference is these buildings/teams have better fan bases because they are more knowledgeable. Want to know why you didn't hear SHOOOT! in Minnesota? Well, there you go. Less noise yelling something stupid. After 24 years of buying NHL tickets, knowledgeable fans have a lot to do with atmosphere and noise and i do not see how this is even a debate. The Devils do not have a knowledgeable fanbase and i truly believe this atmosphere some people want to create is a way to cover this aspect up. Are you saying you want less noise? Once again I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I agree our fanbase is not knowledgeable, and that is annoying. I also wish we had a louder crowd. There isn't an inverse relationship between a crowd's energy and their knowledge of hockey. There were no buffoons yelling, "Shoot" at the Wild game, but the crowd was very energetic. The games I went to in Montreal, Chicago, and Minnesota for the most part had knowledgeable fans, and they were all also very loud, which is what made them memorable. Those two examples are great examples of what I would consider a good atmosphere. People were in great spirits, were loud and it was devoid of a lot of the obnoxiousness that comes with a lot of people's definition of atmosphere. You are right as it is a general sports drift and I agree with Phil Mushnick who has written about it quite a bit as to the origins. Basically it started when ESPN a while ago decided to focus on the crowd almost or just as much as the players. When the cameras are on the crowd, whoi usually gets face time? It's usually the body-painted, drunken, me-me-me type people and this is what most people come to think of what a real "hard-core" fan really is. I wish the place was louder, much like those examples you cited, but I do not wish for more drunken obnoxiousness. The two are not synonymous. What made those nights great were the energy and the supportive nature of the crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRedStorm Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Are you saying you want less noise? Once again I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I agree our fanbase is not knowledgeable, and that is annoying. I also wish we had a louder crowd. There isn't an inverse relationship between a crowd's energy and their knowledge of hockey. There were no buffoons yelling, "Shoot" at the Wild game, but the crowd was very energetic. The games I went to in Montreal, Chicago, and Minnesota for the most part had knowledgeable fans, and they were all also very loud, which is what made them memorable. I wish the place was louder, much like those examples you cited, but I do not wish for more drunken obnoxiousness. The two are not synonymous. What made those nights great were the energy and the supportive nature of the crowd. Yes, i believe there is something to this. It's opinion, of course. Raleigh during the 2009 Playoffs. The crowd is cheering icings and stoppages in play, among other mundane things like the game depended on it. The building felt more like an NCAA game then a hockey game. They cheered to cheer. There wasn't even any substance to most of it only to see if they could make the most possible noise they could. Minnesota is a great crowd. Passionate and respectful. You could tell they did not feel the need to be overly obnoxious (although there's always a few). But, that's also Minnesota. I've spent time out there on business and it's a great place to visit and the people are great. Montreal is the best in the league. Loud, but knowledgeable and respectful. Love the suits and ties worn and the aura of a Saturday Night game. Perhaps some smugness but that's the French anyway and when you've got rafters full of Cups, you can be smug. They weren't cheering icings or to hear themselves cheer. It was a great experience. If the Devils crowds were even near that, it would be ideal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilsfan26 Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I'm still unclear as to what your ideal game atmosphere is. You're saying you can have a loud crowd or a knowledgeable crowd, but you can't have both? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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