Z-Man Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 http://www.puckprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=70 GVT: Goals Versus Threshold. The value of a player, in goals, above what a replacement level player would contribute. GVT aggregates offensive, defensive, goaltending and shootout contributions in a single metric. The sum of player GVT on a team equals that team’s goal differential plus the replacement level, which is 50% of the average team scoring level. http://insider.espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/8144103/2012-nhl-offseason-minnesota-wild-tampa-bay-lightning-big-offseason-winners Nashville -23.2 (29th) New Jersey -23.9 (30th) Lacking anyone to replace Parise, not to mention Ponikarovsky, it could be quite a hangover for the Stanley Cup finalist Devils. Though we didn't factor salary into this particular study, Martin Brodeur's two-year deal with a $4.5 million cap hit would produce a GVS (Goals Versus Salary) of minus-10.4 goals, should the legend's mediocre performance of the past two seasons continue. That would make Brodeur's deal the worst contract offered so far this offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 29th Pick Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 did Linda Cohn write these stats !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 (edited) GVT has flaws - it values goals and assists too highly, doesn't account for tons of factors - but it's okay for goaltenders, and there's no question about that Brodeur contract. It's an abomination. Edited July 11, 2012 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils Pride 26 Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Doesn't take into account post season performance. Obviously, there are extenuating circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 GVT has flaws - it values goals and assists too highly, doesn't account for tons of factors - but it's okay for goaltenders, and there's no question about that Brodeur contract. It's an abomination. I still don't see how anyone cares about Marty's contract at this point. It is not preventing the team from acquiring other players. It played zero role in Parise's defection. It doesn't have any serious cap implications. Even if the cap drops significantly after the CBA, we're still going to be far enough from reaching it so that it won't play a role in whether Zajac can be re-signed. It isn't the sort of deal that will effect the finances in any significant way. At worst, it's a reward for past services rendered. Doesn't bother me. I would also argue that GVT has it's limits when assessing goalies like Marty that, especially as they have gotten older, are notoriously poor at the beginning of the season. As even Tri has admitted, he was very good in the second half of the season, and played well, but not spectacularly, during the playoffs. While I can't speak for the advanced statistics, I recall that Marty was just as good if not better than Lunqvist in the second half for the meat and potato stats. True, as he gets older, his overall performance, including his performance down the stretch will likely decline. Given the lack of any other realistic alternatives, short of a Brian Boucher-type journeyman, it's a risk worth taking even if you don't think it's right that he's overpaid. Again, the worst move by far as the Salvador deal. Not so much because he's overpaid, but that it will force Lou to trade a better defenseman. The only way Lou redeems himself for that is if he manages to pull off another Tom Kurvers-like swindle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I still don't see how anyone cares about Marty's contract at this point. It is not preventing the team from acquiring other players. It played zero role in Parise's defection. It doesn't have any serious cap implications. Even if the cap drops significantly after the CBA, we're still going to be far enough from reaching it so that it won't play a role in whether Zajac can be re-signed. It isn't the sort of deal that will effect the finances in any significant way. At worst, it's a reward for past services rendered. Doesn't bother me. It's at least $2M above his value. If you don't think the Devils could do a lot with $2M, well, we must disagree. I would also argue that GVT has it's limits when assessing goalies like Marty that, especially as they have gotten older, are notoriously poor at the beginning of the season. As even Tri has admitted, he was very good in the second half of the season, and played well, but not spectacularly, during the playoffs. While I can't speak for the advanced statistics, I recall that Marty was just as good if not better than Lunqvist in the second half for the meat and potato stats. True, as he gets older, his overall performance, including his performance down the stretch will likely decline. Given the lack of any other realistic alternatives, short of a Brian Boucher-type journeyman, it's a risk worth taking even if you don't think it's right that he's overpaid. The games in the second half of the season aren't worth more points than games in the first half. They're all worth the same thing. There are no 'advanced statistics' for goaltenders - besides GVT, I guess, which is just a consolidation of things 'regular' stats already tell us. While Lundqvist's first half put the Rangers into the playoffs almost singlehandedly, Brodeur's first half almost cost them the playoffs singlehandedly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggy Spandex Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 It's at least $2M above his value. If you don't think the Devils could do a lot with $2M, well, we must disagree. Overpay or watch him retire somewhere other than NJ. Easy choice for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 It's at least $2M above his value. If you don't think the Devils could do a lot with $2M, well, we must disagree. The games in the second half of the season aren't worth more points than games in the first half. They're all worth the same thing. There are no 'advanced statistics' for goaltenders - besides GVT, I guess, which is just a consolidation of things 'regular' stats already tell us. While Lundqvist's first half put the Rangers into the playoffs almost singlehandedly, Brodeur's first half almost cost them the playoffs singlehandedly. Well, maybe the extra $2 million could pay for some extra Devils dancers, but otherwise, it's just going into the banks' pockets. And yes, I realize that all games matter. However, as bad/overrated as one may think Marty is, the fact remains is that he's been good enough to get us into the playoffs virtually every year of his career, and pretty comfortably at that, including last year. If he's playing better as playoff time rolls around we're better off. I guess what I'm getting at is that Marty's contract is a red herring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Well, maybe the extra $2 million could pay for some extra Devils dancers, but otherwise, it's just going into the banks' pockets. The Devils need a forward. That money could go towards one, instead it's going into Melanie's pockets. And yes, I realize that all games matter. However, as bad/overrated as one may think Marty is, the fact remains is that he's been good enough to get us into the playoffs virtually every year of his career, and pretty comfortably at that, including last year. If he's playing better as playoff time rolls around we're better off. This is something we've been over a lot - the Devils defense has been incredible over the course of his career. Brodeur was massively valuable in 07 and 08, but other than that, I'm not sure how many years he's been *the* factor at getting NJ into the playoffs. I guess what I'm getting at is that Marty's contract is a red herring. Like Communism, I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 The Devils need a forward. That money could go towards one, instead it's going into Melanie's pockets. Like I said, if you can name someone the Devils won't go out and acquire (or keep) but for Marty's contract, let me know. Otherwise, he's gotta feed the monkey. Hasn't that ever occurred to you, sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Like I said, if you can name someone the Devils won't go out and acquire (or keep) but for Marty's contract, let me know. Otherwise, he's gotta feed the monkey. Hasn't that ever occurred to you, sir. Alexei Ponikarovsky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Alexei Ponikarovsky. Was clearly going to be gone anyway for reasons I still can't figure out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghdi Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Was clearly going to be gone anyway for reasons I still can't figure out. I think the chance to go play with Antropov again is the reason he went where he did. If he valued winning, he wouldnt of gone to the damn Jets. He could've waited, what, 2 or 3 more days until Zach decided and then maybe would've been brought back. Saying this money could've gone to Poni is silly. There are extenuating circumstances and legitimate possibilities other than money being the reason he didnt come back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oconnellrules Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 EARTH TO EVERYONE; MARTY ISNT JUST A LEGEND, HES OUR LEGEND. PAY THE MAN HANDSOMELY FOR SERVICES RENDERED. WHEN HE FINALLY DOES RETIRE WE'LL ALL UNDERSTAND THIS CONTRACT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neb00rs Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 EARTH TO EVERYONE; MARTY ISNT JUST A LEGEND, HES OUR LEGEND. PAY THE MAN HANDSOMELY FOR SERVICES RENDERED. WHEN HE FINALLY DOES RETIRE WE'LL ALL UNDERSTAND THIS CONTRACT This is so true. This is an area where I don't participate because the level of ridiculousness just gets out of hand. It's Marty, it's not crippling our team and he took less throughout his career to stay with us. I think we can pay him back just a little. This is not an issue in which I think it's proper to measure the player in terms of skill level and production. we have posters here saying things like, "Well, we could have gotten {insert goalie name here} for this much less." It's like, stfu with that stupid sh!t - it's Martin Brodeur, ya know; THE NJ Devil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capo Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 If Marty is collecting for past services. So be it! The Devils owe him. I always thought he deserved a point where he would get overpaid for taking far less than he could have got in the past. Quite frankly, there was no other option. Lou has not prepared this team for life after Marty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghdi Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I agree that Marty got overpaid, but IMO he's worth it to us. Just the fact its a virtual certainty he finishes his career here is worth what he got paid. Had he got that contract anywhere else, I'd have scoffed at whoever paid it, but I'd have been more mad he was putting on another sweater than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njmar Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 There is an over 100-page thread on everyone being furious with our former captain for a myriad of things, one of which is his lack of loyalty to the organization that drafted him and made him a "star" player. But when it comes to rewarding that loyalty to the face of our franchise who has been nothing but loyal to this same organization for nearly 20 years, some people scoff at overpaying him and giving him an extra year. If you want players to be loyal, you have to show that same loyalty to them at the end of their careers. Sorry but you can't have it both ways. I have absolutely no problem with Marty's contract. I was actually more worried about losing him than Zach and I can't even fathom seeing Marty in another sweater either. If that costs more than what others think he's worth, so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlman Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Did we overpay Marty? Yes Is the extra million bucks negligible considering we wouldn't have a proper replacement next year? Yes Does he deserve it after years of being underpaid? Yes Are the fans and paying customers happy Marty will retire a Devil? Yes Can Marty still bring it in big games? Yes I don't really see the big deal with his contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimaira_Devil_#9 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 There is an over 100-page thread on everyone being furious with our former captain for a myriad of things, one of which is his lack of loyalty to the organization that drafted him and made him a "star" player. But when it comes to rewarding that loyalty to the face of our franchise who has been nothing but loyal to this same organization for nearly 20 years, some people scoff at overpaying him and giving him an extra year. If you want players to be loyal, you have to show that same loyalty to them at the end of their careers. Sorry but you can't have it both ways. I have absolutely no problem with Marty's contract. I was actually more worried about losing him than Zach and I can't even fathom seeing Marty in another sweater either. If that costs more than what others think he's worth, so be it. 100% agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MantaRay Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Did we overpay Marty? Yes Is the extra million bucks negligible considering we wouldn't have a proper replacement next year? Yes Does he deserve it after years of being underpaid? Yes Are the fans and paying customers happy Marty will retire a Devil? Yes Can Marty still bring it in big games? Yes I don't really see the big deal with his contract. These, like most stats are irrelevant to the game. Do we get bonus points that Marty was UNDERPAID for most of his career here?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) Yuh huh, the reason the Devils didn't sign Ponikarovsky is because they gave Marty 1.5-2m extra. Show me your statistics that say that. Of course there is nothing that says that Ponikarovsky didn't re-sign because of that. However, that's a great contract. There's no risk. It's cheap. And Ponikarovsky is the kind of player who won't have the regular stats - his days of being a 20 goal man are probably over - but does a lot to help teams win games. Right now, the Devils wingers are: Kovalchuk, Zubrus, Clarkson, one of Henrique/Elias, Tedenby, Bernier, Carter, Barch, Janssen, in short, their winger depth is horrendous. There's no one at the AHL level that can be expected to contribute. Now it's July and that could easily change when the season starts in December or January, but it's awful. If they don't sign anyone, I'm going to assume it's because they've spent all the money they want to spend. As I've said a million times, you can't pay a legacy goaltender. Plenty of Hall of Fame players have ended their careers as 3rd or 4th liners. Chris Chelios was a depth defenseman for many years in his 40s. But there's no such thing as a depth goaltender - there's a starter, and there's a backup, and Brodeur's getting paid starter money. Just because you think Brodeur was underpaid (hint: he wasn't - when he got his new contract, he was one of the highest paid goalies in the league, and signing a 34 year old goalie for 5 years at that money is totally bonkers) doesn't justify giving him too much money when his career could be all but done. Edited July 12, 2012 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derlique Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) This argument would hold a lot of ground if the Devils were even remotely close to the salary cap. If we're talking dumb signings, let's talk about Salvador's contract. If the Devils don't sign anyone else, I'll be pissed, but it won't have anything to do with the fact that "they've spent all the money they want to spend" -- they whiffed on Parise, there's at least 6.5-7.5m in money for next season that they are willing to spend, even if it's pushing it a tad. Signing Marty to a contract to keep him in a New Jersey sweater by overpaying him 1-2 million bucks isn't the reason we didn't re-sign Poni, and it won't be the reason we don't go out and sign anyone of the like. First of all we know there is an internal budget, so the cap space doesn't really matter. True, Lou was ready to give Zach a lot of money, but he's also a really really good player. I don't think Lou would spend stupid money because of our financial issues, which Parise wouldn't have been. Semin at 7 mill would be a ridiculous overpayment Edited July 12, 2012 by SMantzas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AEWHistory Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) Well, maybe the extra $2 million could pay for some extra Devils dancers, but otherwise, it's just going into the banks' pockets. And yes, I realize that all games matter. However, as bad/overrated as one may think Marty is, the fact remains is that he's been good enough to get us into the playoffs virtually every year of his career, and pretty comfortably at that, including last year. If he's playing better as playoff time rolls around we're better off. I guess what I'm getting at is that Marty's contract is a red herring. I'm not sure it is the non-issue so many believe it to be. This is why Tri is likely correct: Let me preface this by saying that I am aware that Lou says he is not given any financial restraints or artificial cap limitations by ownership. Bullsh!t. If so, why not spend to the cap? Or, more precisely, with Lou being a constant media manipulator, why believe anything he says about internal Devils policy? Be it drafts, cap or financial info, Injuries, or how many bathroom breaks Kovy tajes during a game; everything is either a secret or subject to misinformation. I don't see why this is different. So, making that point, if there is a internal, artificial cap, then spending more on Marty may, in fact, limit Lou's ability to deal with other FAs. It may even have played a role in the Parise scenario, although we will never know and it seems like it didn't. So if ownership says that Lou can only spend 10% above the cap floor, then signing Marty to $4.5 mill and having to plan to resign other players as well as try to possibly sign a FA or two might become all but impossible given those financial constraints. This is theoretical since none of us are privy to these inner workings, but evidence points to certain conclusions that we are, indeed, operating under an internal cap. What isn't clear is if Marty's contract had a significant, minor, or zero impact on this more constrained cap. I tend to think it had had, or will have, some impact. As for Poni and Sal, I think these are easily explained as well. In recent years Lou has become prone to panic. Poni was impatient and signed for less thane would have gotten here and Lou panicked and started to resign his own FAs to premium contracts. This is bad managing and, as an aside, makes me want to go back to my original and long held assessment that Lou has lost his touch despite the recent success. my $.02 Edited July 12, 2012 by AEWHistory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Agree with AEWHistory, and it's not just that that could prevent a signing now - if reports were true about NJ's finances being looked at by the league around the deadline were accurate, it could prevent deadline moves. Remember, Kovalchuk is being paid $11,000,000 this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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